Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

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Not trying to flame the fire but has Spyderco or CRK (just to name a couple manufactures) have/had any comment about this situation? Are they (the manufactures) okay with BFC allowing a dealer that sells clones of their products? Even if the product/clone is not directly advertised on BFC. I feel like this a fair question.

I know one of them sells to distributors who also sell clones of various products. The other is dealer direct only and is able to police who they sell to, however they don't dictate other brands that their dealers may carry.
 
I think the bottom line is that Topomart has purchased a dealer membership here and until they break the rules they will have a presence here.
Ah well, just my two pence here, this could be an issue. Spark Spark mentioned the dealer status acquisition is automated (in the TechSupport thread, if memory serves). So basically, if I splurge 350 $ I can come here and sell whatever I produce or resell as long as I don't break the rules (or no one checks I'm breaking the rules). It seems a rather light way to enter what many consider a temple of knifedom.
A lot of members here have enough passion about this issue to inform people of the many, many sound reasons why they shouldn't give them their business. They haven't even come here to defend themselves even though they have been tagged into this conversation many times.
Why would they defend themselves ? In their eyes, as long as it flies, it flies... And the informing, warning, educating has been going on for years... just to get to this : Topofthesharts is a BF dealer and opens a legit gate to the crappiest knives available.
Perhaps they only purchased the membership because they thought it would be funny? I don't know. But they sure as shit won't gain any kind of a good reputation in this community. Quite the opposite in fact
They purchased the membership to get entry in the greatest and best Knife Forum ever. It's a portal and a showcase for them. We have had enough clone apologizers over the past years that I see them gaining traction with no problem. Not here, but in the market. I believe a lot of people read BF, without being members (heck, BF is in the first references that turn up on Google Search when you look for a type of knife) and it bears weight.
And to end my wall of text, I feel I deserve a heartfelt apology to Spark Spark for me letting slip the disgusting "betrayal price" thing. In quieter times, this would have raised the pitchforks in no time. I guess I was all upset (I was) by the entrance of Toposhart and I just shuffled on in the hope to eventually get an authority answer that would clear up the shitstorm. Nonetheless, you got a lot of bashing while some others got away without some deserved tar and feathers.
 
LMAO you haven't been here long enough to remember people defending actual, literal con artists who lied about their service records & used the blood of dead US servicemen to help line their pockets because "he learned his lesson" and "it's about the knives, not the makers" so SPARE ME your posturing. Matter of fact, it was me standing up against that stuff and getting pushback from various folks for months / years over it. So when I ask where the line is drawn, you might wonder if I have very real, specific examples in mind regarding dishonest & unethical people... especially when I warn that favorite dealers would get blacklisted. I mentioned SHOT & BLADE shows for a reason as well.

I'm not at all surprised that many of you lack the perspective or historical knowledge to understand this in context.

If you want to take things personal when you weren't addressed, that's on you. Likewise if you aren't capable of reading & comprehending the thread to understand where I'm coming from, you might want to try doing that before offering your opinion.

Spark I read here long before I became a members and this very situation I didn't bring up last night as I didn't want to bring a totally different thing into this. but since you have , this is the VERY reason I thought that of all people you would not want this type of manufacturer/dealer here. I thought integrity was a big thing here and I fully thought it was the right thing to do. I tried to hit on it without making it another issue in saying that I respected how that type of person/company was dealt with here as a large reason I became a member and enjoy this site. If you believed in that then why let what the people who didn't see what you did benefitted the whole make you change what you believe in now to allow this dealer in?

I think we all stated where we think the line is and why many are disappointed is because from everything we have seen on BladeForums we believed that was where the line WAS already. As I stated and others have also this isn't a dealer with a few products that you might find an issue with if you look. This is a dealer ... a manufacturer of fakes and knockoffs that doesn't give a damn about their customers or their products. How many times have dealers or makers been called out for just those things and ran off? You have the knowledge upfront of exactly what they are no need to wait and see. They have even posted clones here their only participation even so if you don't see why it bothers us you aren't comprehending.

I actually feel worse about it after this than I did before. I'm not sure it's us that is lacking the perspective here. Maybe being pissed (and I do understand why you are) is giving you a skewed view but not everyone posting here has attacked you or accused you of anything, but tried to have a straight conversation and tell you how it makes us feel. Now you've made it clear you don't care how it makes us feel. Seems our mistake was thinking you would and that you felt the same from past examples, that is exactly where most of this comes from if you don't see it.

The "other" dealers you are referring to don't advertise so when you google another companies knife their site with a fake shows up. Other dealers don't call the use of BM trade mark axis lock an axis lock as per the law. Other dealers don't blatantly copy and manufacture fakes for a living. I could attempt to address other things but this seems like a circle going nowhere.

As I said this is YOUR site ... you CAN control who you allow to be here as a member and as a dealer ... this bad taste this has left isn't because of what they do on there sire (we all had that already) ... this is from them now being allowed on this site ... because it is our community ... even if it is under your control completely.

I totally understand that from some of the posts you have a right to be angry some were accusations and attention seeking and not helpful at all in this but how you're replying to everyone exactly the same isn't productive and it really isn't a good look for the Forum to dig in on this dealer, I honestly cannot picture the guy who in fact made the stand you did that you mentioned above is now taking the stance you are on this dealer.
 
You seem to confuse my disagreeing with you & others with my supporting said dealer. They are not the same. It'd be wise to understand that they are separate issues entirely.

As far as I'm concerned, it's fairly evident that many of you are lacking in perspective because I keep asking you guys where the line is drawn and you all keep waffling and evading and giving non-answers to the very real examples I've provided.

How many times have dealers or makers been called out for just those things and ran off?
Not often.

The "other" dealers you are referring to don't advertise so when you google another companies knife their site with a fake shows up.
Keyword spam & search engine optimization are real tactics, so no, you are quite wrong. Matter of fact, Google is more than happy to promote listings for competing products if you will plonk down money for keyword searches. They don't care.

Good luck getting Google to change their ways.

Facebook tracks your browsing habits across multiple sites, sells your metrics to various advertisers & then tailors ads based upon your history. Am I responsible for Facebook too?

How many people have been burned by Amazon, getting clones or counterfeit products when they ordered a legit item? Hell, Amazon used their fulfilment data to find what brands they should carry & sell themselves, then turned around and knocked off products to make even greater profit. Am I supposed to ban any company that does business with Amazon too?

Where's my responsibility end?
 
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They haven't even come here to defend themselves even though they have been tagged into this conversation many times.

I mean, that's a good point- I for one didn't actually expect topomart to reply. I'm not 100% that it's a single, "real" person who's interested in having that kind of conversation. An example of a person who would respond would be Jordan@DLT Jordan@DLT ; a person who represents a company who's business basically lives or dies on their reputation. Topomart is a different beast.

Also, I'm not sure that if I was topomart I would engage in this conversation at all, even as a real person who cares about reputation. They stand nothing to gain and only something to lose if they participated.

Countless threads mention to buy from one of the dealers on the paid supporting dealers list to make sure you get an authentic knife, with someone like Topomart on that list, this is now bad info.

DLT's done well by me, and I will continue to sing DLT's praises for your standup, honest pricing, good products and service. You guys keep doing what you're doing and I guarantee that you're not going to have a problem because of a few threads by which some sorry, under-informed individual accidently goes to an obviously bad website and buys a cheap knockoff clone knife. Not to mention DLT can get me a package in about 7 days and topomart asks customers to allow up to 50. DLT is in an entirely different league, and it's obvious by what you do regardless of Blade Forums existence.

I understand what it looks like- but I think it's just as important that people understand that a dealer membership doesn't mean Blade Forums is endorsing the business. A business's credibility is hard earned by the business, and you guys are doing great.
 
"Do I ban any dealers who carry Hogue?" Who asked you to? Benchmade had a patent on that and it ran out. It can be used by anyone. They still have a trademark on the name, and no one can use that name for a knife lock.

Obviously you have a line if you allow that Hogue to be advertised and sold here but not that obvious CRK clone. So there is a line, but all of a sudden in this thread you want to act like it's some sort of mysterious sorcery to define it. WTF? What purpose does it serve to keep shouting "WHERE IS THE LINE?" and acting like it's some sort of existential quandry? You want to just NOT draw one and let it be "anything goes" because "how much are you OK with?" I just don't understand what you think continuing to beat that drum is accomplishing.
 
Spark Spark ,
I don't agree with your decision on this matter, but I appreciate you taking the time to address us here. Thank you for clarifying your position.

If I've written things that were a personal attack on you, please accept my apologies.

I think it's time for us all to move on from this topic and hope that Topomart screws up enough to get the boot. I sense that they know exactly what they're doing and will manage to skirt the ban hammer.

Happy Holidays everyone.
 
Too bad. Nobody said boo when multiple people questioned my integrity and made comments about 30 pieces of silver / gold.

So you are ok with some clones, just not all clones. Got it.

I've looked at it from multiple points of view. My point of view is reasonable: I can only control what happens here. People having meltdowns about what happens on a website I don't control isn't reasonable or rational.

Oh ok, cool. My discretion is exercised in that I boot people for how they conduct themselves on this site, just like I don't boot people for their actions on eBay. I have a zero tolerance policy for clones being sold here and expect members to abide by the rules set forth.

You guys are expecting me to expand that definition to sites that advertise clones OFF the forums. I'm, reasonably, asking where we draw the line. That's not "quibbling"

I'm late to the party, but here's my $0.03 (that's right, I said $0.03. Ballin!)

I'm ok with where the site and Spark Spark have drawn the line. As long as a dealer or member follow the rules of the forum while on the forum I don't see any cause to ban them.

The site has a very basic, easy to understand set of rules. We're all free to break those rules off-site (you should hear what I call @WValtakis when speaking elsewhere), but are held to a standard here. As long as a dealer, member, manufacturer, craftsman, etc. follows those rules they should be allowed to exist here just the same.

I would hope though, that if push came to shove behind the scenes and our legitimate and beloved manufacturing supporters like Spyderco and Benchmade threatened to pull their support if dealers of counterfeits weren't dropped the site would side with them. I'd hate to see valued members of the community be lost in favor of an academic argument of how the site should choose its supporters.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like these sort of dealers either and would've been fine with wthe decision if Spark Spark banned them immediately. I do respect his decision to take the stance that he has in the face of obvious opposition though and looking at the issue academically, I agree.
 
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"Do I ban any dealers who carry Hogue?" Who asked you to? Benchmade had a patent on that and it ran out. It can be used by anyone. They still have a trademark on the name, and no one can use that name for a knife lock.

Obviously you have a line if you allow that Hogue to be advertised and sold here but not that obvious CRK clone. So there is a line, but all of a sudden in this thread you want to act like it's some sort of mysterious sorcery to define it. WTF? What purpose does it serve to keep shouting "WHERE IS THE LINE?" and acting like it's some sort of existential quandry? You want to just NOT draw one and let it be "anything goes" because "how much are you OK with?" I just don't understand what you think continuing to beat that drum is accomplishing.

So like I said, you are ok with IP theft and ripping off companies, as long as it's not brands you support. You want me to be the police for what happens off site and tell manufacturers / dealers what they can and cannot sell.

I get that you don't understand. It's clear you lack the perspective here because you won't be the one having to enforce vague decrees from people with wildly inconsistent and contradictory positions.

"Who asked you to" is EXACTLY THE POINT. I'm literally asking you to define where the line is drawn, because you want me to police what other businesses do, without authority, and then act surprised when I point out what will happen when we go down this road.
 
"I keep asking you guys where the line is drawn and you all keep waffling and evading and giving non-answers to the very real examples I've provided."

As I said you've drawn the line. You keep insisting that is the question but it's not. There isn't a problem with the line we had. The problem is the vendor in question is obviously on the wrong side of it.
 
You seem to confuse my disagreeing with you & others with my supporting said dealer. They are not the same. It'd be wise to understand that they are separate issues entirely.

It's necessary to compartmentalize how we feel about something versus what we do about it. And thank goodness- a lot of us would be banned by now.

Keyword spam & search engine optimization are real tactics, so no, you are quite wrong. Matter of fact, Google is more than happy to promote listings for competing products if you will plonk down money for keyword searches. They don't care.

Good luck getting Google to change their ways.

Folks could use Google to find an illegitimate website full of viruses, too, and most people wouldn't really consider it Google's responsibility to sort that out.
 
I would hope though, that if push came to shove behind the scenes and our legitimate and beloved manufacturing supporters like Spyderco and Benchmade threatened to pull their support if dealers of counterfeits weren't dropped the site would side with them. I'd hate to see valued members of the community be lost in favor of an academic argument of how the site should choose its supporters.

Benchmade is dealer direct and cannot control what other brands their own dealers carry. Spyderco sells through distribution, including Amazon. Both set up at BLADE and SHOT shows where manufacturers of knockoffs are also present.

As I said you've drawn the line. You keep insisting that is the question but it's not. There isn't a problem with the line we had. The problem is the vendor in question is obviously on the wrong side of it.
No, you guys are moving the line from "dealers selling counterfeits & knockoffs on this site" to "ban this dealer for selling knockoffs off this site" and want me to police the actions of others where I have no control. That you don't see the difference is obvious.
 
Hogue uses a version of the AXIS lock on multiple knives
They sure do, which is not an issue per the rules of the forum. The use of the axis lock is not a problem, but calling it the "axis" lock is a problem, which is why hogue and others don't use that name. That is a trademarked term. Your forum is posting links where that trademarked term can be seen, on the linked page, being used to sell knives by companies that don't hold the rights to use that term. No grey area. No semantics.

Will you do nothing about those links?
 
We banned people in the past like Aratechreviews or Aldebaran who were reviewing china knives on this forum or trying to bring more awareness to these products in general. Now it looks like we made a mistake and they can come back and actually post links to their site this time around. Probably same people with all those Russian keywords all over the site.
BTW. In their defense, they were making same arguments Spark is now staring to make.
Where you draw the line? Boss, that's your job to determine that.
They look like the bunch of people who will have no problem selling fake Arius on their site, etc. First they will get you to come visit with something less harmful. The allegiance is very clear and that's where you draw the line. Don't want to police their site and know what they might sell next? Don't let them in and you won't have to worry about it.
 
The difference I can't see is between "selling clones" on this site and "advertising clones" on this site. Technically, it's not the same thing, right. Not a marketstand but a showcase... Still, I struggle.
 
Kevin ( Spark Spark ),

Thank you for taking the time to chime in and offer answers as well as your perspective regarding this. I do apologize if anything I had stated on the matter contributed to any rise in your blood pressure. Truth be told, I have been more critical of the issues this website has had for most of the year - that has been quite frustrating. Despite that though, I still re-upped my membership - it wasn't a difficult decision however, I have a lot invested here.

That is beside the point though - you answered one of my questions in that the subscription service is automated across the board, that there is no vetting of dealers and makers who want to purchase the correlating subscriptions. I understand that though I might wish to see such vetting, it does add more work to you and/or the other mods. It would seem that it is simply easier to let the system do its thing - grant subscriptions, expect the people behind the subscriptions to follow the rules, and if they do not do the latter, then they can be dealt with accordingly.

I am good with that. I am willing to bet that if Topomart doesn't simply ghost altogether, if they do contribute anything more at all - it will only be a matter of time before they slip up and they get splashed. The problem resolves itself before too long. I have a hard time believing their stay will be lengthy - they are getting a lot of heat, negative exposure, and no one here (with any hint of scruples, that is) will be referring members to Topomart's inventory.

I don't find the ongoing discussion regarding the semantics of clones, drawing lines, and such particularly productive. Any number of these discussions that I have followed in the past invariably travel in circles. You've made your stance on clones quite clear early on in this thread and the official BladeForums stance on the matter has not changed. Frankly, that should be enough. I think the current discussion is just plain confusing now.

I hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas.
 
I’m usually the guy that sits back and soaks in all the information prior to posting a comment, so I hope I’ve done enough soaking.

Over and over again, I feel that the question of ethics is the main argument here — not how many IP thefts we can unravel and police. This is not about drawing a line, it’s about 1 dealer. We don’t need to save the world, we just want to maintain the positive, honest reputation and camaraderie here on BF. I will argue that the personal attacks on one another is garbage and not how we should be handling this. We’re not here to question one another, we’re here to question said dealer. If anything, Topomart has already done its damage by creating friction amongst the members, moderators, and owner. It doesn’t need to violate any rules, it’s already shown itself as a detriment to this community. I mean, is the reasoning behind allowing his dealer to stay worth the broken spirits and disappointment that it has caused? Are the repercussions of removing this said dealer greater than keeping them on BF? To sum it up, I became a member to check out knives when I first got into this hobby. I became a Gold member to be able to sell knives without paying too much in fees. I’ve renewed my membership the last two years because the members here have become my friends, with some I consider family. This is a great place to be and where I spend the majority of my ‘social media’ free time. I hope the decision to keep Topomart on BF doesn’t change the values of this community too drastically.
 
No, you guys are moving the line from "dealers selling counterfeits & knockoffs on this site" to "ban this dealer for selling knockoffs off this site" I see. True.
and want me to police the actions of others where I have no control. No.
 
Ultimately, it seems that rather than siding with the mob or siding with the dealer Spark Spark has sided with the forum. It has its rules and those rules will continue to be enforced.

A dealer is welcome to purchase a dealer membership and post according to the rules. The rest of the community is the welcome to crap all over their posts and make it impossible to avoid a reputation as a peddler of fakes and counterfeits.

Spark Spark made a tough decision to protect the utility that we the community use to protect ourselves from dealers and manufacturers like Topoturd.

Allowing them to be a member may even be for the best. It makes it easier to point and yell at them.
 
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