Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!

Originally posted by Les Robertson
RWS,

Im glad to see you now can see the difference between different dealers.

In the beginning you were generalizing that it was the "dealers". In fact it is not all dealers.

Just as it is not all makers selling before the show.

However, you still seem to be focusing on the dealers. Remember, we can't buy them if they are not for sale before the show opens.

It's only fair to point out all the parties involved.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct, Les! This thread kind of took off in that one-sided direction, which was my fault.
After thinking about this topic hard and heavy, I agree that the knifemakers are truly as much the blame for this activity as some purveyors, probably more!
I wish both of these parties would agree not to conduct business this way at the knife shows.
 
Originally posted by GigOne



If I may interject. . .

Just because you get into a show earlier, than the rest of the crowd, doesn't mean that you'll get a knife from a "target maker." Believe me ! ! !
Click to expand...

That's true! No guarantees that you'll be the one to get that knife from your favorite maker if you show up right when the door opens.

However, you are guaranteed not to get that knife if the maker sells it on Thursday night, before the show starts, to a dealer!;)
 
This thread is more intense than I expected-I guess I never really considered how frustrating these various scenarios could be for customers, makers and purveyors.

It seems to me, that, over the years, all my best show dealings, other than regular, "at the table sales" were set up in advance. That is, the customer (purveyor, dealer, regular, etc.) contacted me in advance and we had an arrangement on the transaction, as well as a backup plan or "drop dead" contingency.

That, combined with orders taken at the show, has seemed to keep most everyone happy.

Sometimes, I don't get everything done in time for a show, but, that's the first work I do when I get back home.
 
Hey Joss, I was re-reading the posts in this thread and I realized how much you helped defending these concerns.
I just wanted to thank you for your help in this thread I started!

In fact, everyone that posted here had great points on both sides of this issue! Thanks!!!

One thing is certain. I'm sure not smart enough to figure out an exact answer to this "problem".
 
RWS,
I've also held off in responding to your thread.
Something to take into consideration is that most of us makers that have been around for awhile have a strong customer base. On Thursday night, if a long time customer asks what I have for the show, sees something he likes, asks if he can take it, my answer will always be "yes". He's been buying knives from me for 15-20 years and I feel he deserves preferential treatment. I may be wrong, but I'm not changing that.
As for dealers, LesR has been my strongest dealer for 15+ years and you can ask him. To the best of my recollection, he has never gotten a knife from me before the show was started.
We makers make knives year around. Why wait till a show? If you have never bought a knife from me, you are way down the list compared to the hundreds of customer base people that have been buying for many years.
I would hazard a guess that I'm not alone in this thought process.
 
I have no idea how something like this would be received, but at shows in my industry there is something done to make sure that there is product for people to see right through till the end of the show. Exhibitors must have product at their booth and though it can be sold, the purchaser must pick it up at the end of the show or have it shipped to them once the show is over.

This would completely solve the problem as far as the attendees are concerned, but would introduce problems for the makers, purveyors and dealers that exhibit. It would mean that people that purchase a knife would have to be there at the end of the show to pick it up or would have to pay extra for shipping. Of course the seller could pay the shipping, but that would add to the already high cost of the show. Also, as has been mentioned, there is also the chance that from the time the knife is purchased and the end of the show that the knife could be damaged.

When I am going to a show, I am travelling a very long way. My costs to attend a show in th U.S. would be somewhere around one thousand dollars. If I am going to travel that far and pay that much, I want to see knives when I get there and I want to see knives made by my favorite makers. When attending Blade or the Oregon show they are big enough that I would probably not be able to see all the knives that would interest me. The smaller shows are another story. It would usually be quite easy to see all the knives in one day, but even if you spent a lot of time visiting you would have no problem seeing them over a two or three day period. Empty tables at the beginning of these shows would aggravate me, to say the least.

Even if a maker does have knives at the beginning of a show, there is no guaranty that a popular/hot maker won't sell out in the first half hour. I do however think that there should be an effort on the part of makers that exhibit at shows to have a selection of knives at the beginning of the show. If the maker plans to sell knives before the show opens to regular attendees, they should make sure they still have some left when the show starts. That is only fair to the people paying the their hard earned money to attend these shows.
 
Kit,
I try to do the same thing with long time customers.
Most of the good customers now days will call before the shows to place a special order or ask what I have for the show that is extra unique that they can put their name on. This system seems to work very well.
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson
RWS,
Something to take into consideration is that most of us makers that have been around for awhile have a strong customer base. On Thursday night, if a long time customer asks what I have for the show, sees something he likes, asks if he can take it, my answer will always be "yes". He's been buying knives from me for 15-20 years and I feel he deserves preferential treatment.

We makers make knives year around. Why wait till a show? If you have never bought a knife from me, you are way down the list compared to the hundreds of customer base people that have been buying for many years.
I would hazard a guess that I'm not alone in this thought process.
Click to expand...
For all of the great knifemakers out there, such as yourself, having a longstanding repeat customer base is something you have worked REAL HARD for years to create.
You have been doing business this way for along time and apparently know whats best for your knife business.

However, going to a show, I thought, was suppose to give me an oppurtunity to see and hold the knives of those makers that really attracted me to the show to begin with.

If you choose as a maker to sell most of your knives to these longtime customers or buddies or dealers on Thursday night and start the show with a near empty table how am I suppose to experience your art. It's a knife SHOW! Show and tell!
As said earlier by Les, this practice only effects a small percentage of knifemakers, anyhow. But, these are the guys I go to see! I buy expensive knives!

Secondly, Mr. Carson, your admission about your special treatment of some customers versus other customers kind of surprises me. That if someone hadn't purchased a knife from you in the past they're looked at and handled quite differently than your regulars. That's my interpretation. You say above that "you are way down the list compared to the hundreds of customer base people that have been buying for many years."

What this means to me is that a potentially new customer of yours has little to no chance of ever getting one of your knives even if they order one because your older and better customers will always come first. As you say above "I feel he deserves preferential treatment."

I doubt you really mean that, Mr. Carson! Your set in your ways perhaps, but this would not be consistent with your great reputation, IMO.

It's early and my interpretations sometimes get fogged up and I probably am reading this all wrong. I apologize to you if I am!.

I'm really not a miserable SOB at a show! I look forward to these shows. However, I do order most of my knives from the makers when I want a knife.

This thread was not intended to be adversarial. I don't believe for a second that someone here would treat anyone unfailrly intentionally!

This thread began as a result of a level of frustration over this practice that didn't make any sense to me which is the dealings between the knifemaker and the dealer before a show starts which results in little to no knives at some of the star makers' tables before the show even begins.

Then, preferential treatment of certain customers was brought up. Again, I'm not smart enough to figure out the exact solution. There probably isn't one.

Keith brought this one point up again. Sell your knives whenever you can to whomever will buy them but let them remain at your table on display for the duration of the show so everyone who paid to get into the show will have a chance to see them.

Other than that, at this point, let's go have a beer and I'm buying!
 
Kit,

Thank you for pointing out what our business relationship has been.

As you can tell by this thread, I think it is important that buyers/collectors understand that there are difference's in the way that dealers conduct their business.

Gig One,

You have the right idea, your just not taking it to it's obvious conclusion.

18 years ago at my first Blade Show I went to several makers tables to check out their knives. However, they were sold out. It was explained to me that some of the knives were sold immediately upon the doors opening. While others were sold prior to the show.

I resolved the next year that this would not happen again. So 6 months prior to the show I contacted Blade Magazine and asked them for a list of table holders.

Next, I narrowed it down to 10 makers. Then the process began. If I didn't have their catalog I sent for it. I scoured the magazines and Knives Annual's for pictures of their work.

Upon deciding on which 10 knives I wanted. I then contacted the makers in February and asked them if they would have one of those for the show.

Without exception 4 or 5 makers would say they didn't know. The other makers (the smart ones), took my order for delivery at the show. I would then send them a deposit (usually $50). When the doors opened. I went to their table, paid the balance and walked away with the knife I really wanted.

I then had a day or two to walk the show . Check out the knives available. Look at my short list of makers knives I wanted to buy, etc.

Yes, it took some extra effort. However, I always got what I wanted. More to the point, I stopped buying knives that I just "liked". I forced myself to justify the purchase of each knife.

It also taught me about the business side of custom knives...or lack their of by some makers. I didn't realize it at the time, but early on I was pre-selecting makers I would eventually work with when I became a dealer.

RWS,

The approach I wrote about above is the same approach I took to my custom knife business.

As Kit pointed out, I sell knives all year around. For me, shows have become more of a place to meet Internet customers, check out new makers, do some trading and even sell a knife or two. Plus I love going to knife shows. I go to some knowing I will not cover expenses.

However, even with travel, shows account for less than 1 month of the year, what about the other 11 months?

For me it is imperative that I work with the makers closely all year round, not just on Thursday night.

At the East Coast Custom Knife Show last March I met with a client in the bar on Thursday night. He asked me "shouldn't you be in the makers rooms tonigh, like the other dealers here?". I started laughing until I realized he was serious. I stopped laughing and said "Thursday night in the room is for the new dealers".

When you do it as a professional, all year round. Thursday night before a show is just another Thursday night.

The dealers you have been speaking of are the ones who do not have tables at the show. As those of us who do set up pay $400 - $600 (table fees) to get in early on Friday. That is when I pick up the knives I ordered months before.

As a dealer that actually sets up and not one of those deales who sneak in early, Shaking down those poor makers who they force to sell at a discount before the show opens :D

That is when I look at the makers work and offer to buy the knife on Sunday should it not sell. Having to pay for a table myself. I understand the expense and what it takes to be tied to a table for 3 days.

Really makes you wonder why a make would give a discount on Friday????

Lastly, you will never see shows become what you would like. Fact of the matter is, like it or not. Show expenses can be very expensive. This is why knives are pre-sold. The current market is very competitive. Those makers whos position in the market is in the middle of the category. Are finding it a little tough to cover those expenses these days.

So understand it can be a big risk for many makers to set up at a show. As there is no guarantee that you will sell one knife.

My best advice is pick up the phone or send an email before you travel to your next show.
 
RWS,

You wrote in your post to Kit:

"Keith brought this one point up again. Sell your knives whenever you can to whomever will buy them but let them remain at your table on display for the duration of the show so everyone who paid to get into the show will have a chance to see them."

So you would buy a knife Friday and leave it there until Sunday so others could look at it?

What if the knife gets stolen? Would you expect the maker to pay for it...after all it's your knife.

How about if a customer drops the knife on the floor. Drops another knife on to it. Would you expect the maker to repair if for free? After all it's your knife.

Yes, knives get stolen...at every show.

Knives get damaged at every show.

On top of this, do you really want potenitally hundreds of people handling YOUR KNIFE.

What would think if you walked up and saw your knife in someone's hand and they are "flicking" the knife open. Slamming it open each time.

Or how about them doing the dreaded and feared "Spine Whack" test to your knife.

Yes, the maker can ask them to stop, but that is only after they did that to YOUR KNIFE.

Can you see how a maker would not be inclined to leave YOUR KNIFE on the table.

Last scenario, if the maker sells out on Friday afternoon. Do you really think they want to stand behind a table to watch over your knife.

How many times do think they want to someone the knife is not for sale. Only to get dirty looks from some collectors. Many who think and some even say "If it's not for sale why is it on your table"?

Knives that are not for sale on a popular makers table. Have a tendency to irritate more collectors than make them appreicate the fact they have one on the table for them to handle.

Now you understand why makes work with dealers like me, the one's who set up at shows. You can come by my table and see all of those knives you came to see.

You might be able to see some of the others...if you can run down those other dealers and get them to open their back packs. But make sure you do so well outside the show.

Those who sell in or near the show without a table are called "brown baggers". If they are caught selling, more times they are asked to leave the show.

As you have probably gathered from this thread. There are a lot of behind the scene dynamics that take place before, during and after a show.
 
Les, You make some good points that I don't have all the answers for regarding the maker holding the knives.

Regarding whether or not a knife maker should remain at his table after he sells out, I think he should be there the whole time for the knife show patrons.

Should he babysit my knife to show other people after I bought it?
I don't know! I think it would benefit him and the show folks. Do the benefits outway the costs or risks? I think so, out of ignorance mind you!

Would I like a lot of people handling my knife after I bought it?
This is the tough question. Probably not! However, I don't think that I'd be too concerned about how many people handled it before I bought it.

Also, if a knifemaker from whom I just bought a knife asked me if I would let him keep it at his table to show others, I would say absolutely!

Knives do get stolen at shows. This aberration would not be a big concern for me, though.
But, what if a knife I bought did get stolen while sitting at a makers table?
I would look at it the same way as if I ordered a knife from you on the internet, Les. If I pay for it and you ship it and it never gets to me I think it would be the sellers responsibility to make me whole. It's the sellers until I take delivery of it.

Should a maker be asked to take this risk?
I don't know, but it seems like he's taking the same risk anyway by coming to the show and putting his knives on the table before he sells them. So why not?

What if my knife got scratched while the maker was showing other customers?
I would expect a touch up on it. Most makers will clean up scratches and sharpen a knife they made for the life of the knife at no charge, anyway. This shouldn't matter to the maker IMO.

No doubt, that the buyer of the knife, as much as the maker, would definetly have to be a willing participant in this "SELLER KEEPS THE KNIVES UNTIL THE END OF THE SHOW" scenario!
It may not work, but again it might. I would rather try that than continue with the Thursday night practice!

Les, do you think it's ok for a knifemaker to sell a majority of his show inventory to dealers before the show starts?
 
What is to keep you from going to the dealers table and handling the knives you are interested in and then return to the table of the maker and order a similar piece? Or if dealers are only getting what you would pay the maker, buy it from him. You still have the knife you wanted, regardless of whom you purchased it from.

I have sit at too many shows and didn't sell anything until the last hour or two. If somebody walks up with money and wants to buy a knife, they're going to walk away with it. Of course I don't have the problem of being so well known that I would sell out before the show anyway. I should be so cursed! :D

Steve
 
Originally posted by Nifmakr
What is to keep you from going to the dealers table and handling the knives you are interested in and then return to the table of the maker and order a similar piece? Or if dealers are only getting what you would pay the maker, buy it from him. You still have the knife you wanted, regardless of whom you purchased it from.
Steve
Click to expand...
I think one of Les' points earlier on was that some of the dealers that go to shows to buy don't pay and set up a table. They buy, then take off.
If they did set up with their inventory, that would be great!
 
As a fairly new customer of Kit Carsons I can say I have been treated more than fair. I don't buy alot of knives and haven't been in the custom market for very long. I think you have read more into Kits post than you shold have. I've gotten 3 knives from Kit in the last year and a half and was treated wonderfully for all three from the first to the last, even with the first one whitch was only a $150 necker I thought I was treated like an old friend. I have still yet to meet Kit face to face, but my treatment from him was so good I got more knives from him since that first dealling. And more will come one of these days :)
edited to ad:
And truth be told I am a big SOB as well
 
RWS,

Many makers like to think of themselves as "Artists". Some are and almost all are very gifted craftsman.

However, the reality of the custom knife business is selling knives.

Should a maker sell most of their inventory before a show. The obvious answer is no. They have paid for a table, the hotel, air fare, etc. So put the knives on the table. As shows are still the best way to advertise your knives to those who attend the show.

Of course if the car and house payment are due on Tuesday after the show. Selling the knives to a dealer may be an excellent way to stay in business one more month.

Each maker has to run their business as they see fit. As the owner of my own business for the last 8 1/2 years. I can attest to the fact that it is very challanging to run your own business. Sometimes long term goals have to be sacrificed for short term needs.
 
Originally posted by db
As a fairly new customer of Kit Carsons I can say I have been treated more than fair. I don't buy alot of knives and haven't been in the custom market for very long. I think you have read more into Kits post than you shold have.
Click to expand...
I have only heard good things about Kit Carson. Everyone who knows about him knows he treats ALL of his customers with respect and fairness! Plus, he makes an awesome knife!

In all honesty, I feel quite embarrased that I would think that I needed to defend him. His deserved great reputation doesn't need my help!
 
I didn't need to defend him. I wanted too. Beleive me if I had a reason to stick it to Kit I would, but he really is one of the good guys. I even kind of like the old hasbeen.
 
i havent been buying custom knives very long. but theres a few makers that when i walk up they greet me with a smile a handshake and they know my first name. they give me good treatment because im a good customer. and it feels good to get preferential treatment because of it.
i fully agree with what kit says. it's still a business and long time customers spells long time( and future) money. having people walk over to your table and admire your knives is great but it doesnt pay rent or the travel expences.
 
I believe that all customers should be treated with courtesy, professionalism and enthusiasm, but I also believe that long time and good customers do deserve special treatment. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Les, when you talk about makers selling knives to people before a show starts because it is better to sell knives then than to not know if you were going to sell enough knives at the show to pay the bills, that makes me wonder about something. How many makers that would not sell most if not all of their knives at a show, would have people clamoring to buy their knives before the show started?

Bringing preordered knives to a show for delivery makes a lot of sense. When a good customer asks if he/she can check out the knives you are bringing to the show the night before the show with the hopes of finding one they really want, it makes good business sense to do so. It also makes good business sense to have knives on your table at the beginning of a show. I think all of these things can be done without the necessary exclusion any one of them. It just takes good planning and hard work on the part of the maker.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top