Crosscut Saw Thread

[Steve Tall]

I'm not familiar with the type of spider gauge shown in 6a.

From that same linked page:

(1f) Setting indicator, commercial or self-made...
(The self-made setting indicator consists of a piece of wood with three metal pins of the same length in a fixed position and an adjustable screw-type pin.)

http://www.appropedia.org/Original:...d_Tools_6#Wood_Harvesting_with_Hand_Tools_6_2

 

[Miller '72]

if all else fails, joint and sharpen the existing angle.

I tell ya, a few times I almost did.
I tend to get excited and jump right in sometimes
I'll need to find a proper saw set and or make a spider to do this right.

I have a 36" peg tooth (plate only) and have the same concerns. This is the only thing I could find in the stuff I have. It is from a U. S. Forest Service manual written for the CCC:




Bob

This is good here. The thought of not using a saw set, as a beginner, I read this as if it was speaking/warning right to me

There's a facebook group where some of the world's top filers offer free advice.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Sawfilers/?ref=br_rs

Another.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/InternationalSawFilers/?ref=ts&fref=ts

Thanks squarepeg.
I haven't been able to bring myself to joining/registering a Facebook account. I just can't do it

Here's a source with some basic instructions (which I cannot vouch for):
Wood Harvesting with Hand Tools (ILO, 1989, 128 p.)
http://www.appropedia.org/Original:Wood_Harvesting_with_Hand_Tools_6


MAINTAINING A PEG-TOOTH CROSS-CUT SAW

The following measures are recommended for triangular teeth:

Hardness of wood / Distance between points of two teeth / Height of tooth / Width of gullet between two teeth

Hard / 17 mm / 16 mm / 6.0 mm

Soft / 9 mm / 12 mm / 0.5 mm

Mixed hard and soft / 14 mm / 15 mm / 3.7 mm


Maintenance starts with jointing while the saw is firmly held in a vertical position by the filing vice. The jointer is run along the saw teeth using very little pressure (1). In normal use, the teeth in the middle of the saw will wear more quickly than those at the end. This is adjusted by increased pressure at the beginning and the end of the jointing stroke.

The jointing is continued until all cutter teeth show a small "flat" and jointing should stop when this happens. One or a few (if evenly distributed) badly worn or broken teeth are not considered. Further jointings will bring them back into the tooth line.

Cutter teeth filing is done with a 20 cm millsaw file using horizontal strokes parallel to the lines of a grid attached to the vice (2). The sharpening angle marked on the grid (2a) is 70° for hard wood and 60° for soft wood. These angles may be copied from figure 3. The top angle (2b) is 38° for hard and soft wood. A gauge is needed to check the sharpening angle and the top angle (4). During filing, the gullet should be lowered at the same time (5). First file one side of the saw, tooth by tooth, and then turn the saw and file the other side. Care must be taken to stop filing when the flat is about to disappear.

Deburring is done with the whetstone, the fine side of which is run lightly along both sides (as for raker-tooth saws, see page 38).

Setting is carried out with a setting indicator (6a) and a special saw set (6b). The correct set is 0.3-0.4 mm for hard wood and 0.5-0.6 mm for soft wood.

Note: Badly worn saws may need gulleting before sharpening begins. This is best done after having marked the gullet depth and position (7a). The round edge of the millsaw file is used for gulleting (7b).


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This is the most detailed and closely specific information yet. Thank you Steve, invaluable to me not ruining a saw that has lasted well this long before me.

Thanks to everyone helping.
Now, how do I find the correct saw set for filing?
I see them on the online auction site, are they specific to tooth patterns?
Thanks for any advice on this, I want to learn the right way before I go and do it the wrong way

 

[rjdankert]

I'm not familiar with the type of spider gauge shown in 6a.

Here is a similar one I made:



The relief cut in the body essentially serves the same purpose as the three fixed pins in 6a providing space for a tooth (YMMV). The sides of the body are cut away around the screw so it will clear the teeth on either side of the one being measured. On a flat surface, back off the lock nut. Set the screw depth for the set you want with a feeler gauge. Tighten the lock nut. Recheck and readjust as necessary.

Bob

 

[rjdankert]

Now, how do I find the correct saw set for filing

Here is another reference(if you have not already seen it):

Crosscut Saw Manual
USDA Forest Service
by Warren Miller
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf77712508/pdf77712508dpi72.pdf

Good comprehensive source including pictures, drawings and descriptions of various tools used for crosscut saws.

Bob

 

[phantomknives]

just topped of my fulton, cant find my phone so no pictures but it turned our a lot better than it was

 

[Miller '72]

Here is another reference(if you have not already seen it):

Crosscut Saw Manual
USDA Forest Service
by Warren Miller
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf77712508/pdf77712508dpi72.pdf

Good comprehensive source including pictures, drawings and descriptions of various tools used for crosscut saws.

Bob

Thank you for that link, I did not have or come across that.
I have downloaded it just now and will be reading it ASAP! Thank you.
I watched a few videos in a five(?) Part series with Warren Miller I believe.
If it's the same guy, I hope it is, very informative and thorough.
As I watched him I realized I was going to need a little more research before I just attack my new saw with a file and my free hand and eye.

 

[Square_peg]

I spotted this 11 footer in a local museum on Friday. It's in great shape. Very long cutters - maybe never filed.

 

[phantomknives]

does anyone know of a class in or near virginia? i'v been looking for a while and i cant find anywhere that offers classes that isnt 10 hours away.

im looking into this so i can stop myself from damaging any other saws. i know the basics, but not enough to make myself happy. my saws dont cut noodles, my raker gauge doesnt work, im in sore need of a teacher at this point. there's only so far you can go in this hobby without help

 

[rjdankert]

does anyone know of a class in or near virginia?

My answer is no, but something you might look into:

Crosscut sawyer training and USFS certification:
I bring an interesting collection of tools and a fresh enthusiasm for safety and efficiency to the USFS curriculum.
Contact me about your specific needs and location.

http://www.sharpcrosscut.com/instruction

I don't know what this particular training is, but if you contact Dolly Chapman she may be able to help you find something.


Bob

 

[phantomknives]

i know dolly's in california but i'll try to contact her, thanks for the help

 

[phantomknives]

so, i've found one guy. dan dueweke. he's the only person i'v found thats listed on the internet. im sure there are people in the Appalachian conservancy society that could teach me but i'v got to be a member and wait for a specific workshop, or request one from a teacher.

 

[Old Axeman]

Yes on the Forest Service Crosscut Saw Manual. Warren Miller is an old friend, and knows what he is talking about. Many years ago I gave him his first "WARREN" axe.

 

[rjdankert]

so, i've found one guy. dan dueweke. he's the only person i'v found thats listed on the internet. im sure there are people in the Appalachian conservancy society that could teach me but i'v got to be a member and wait for a specific workshop, or request one from a teacher.

He is a member here - trailtime


Bob

 

[phantomknives]

i was thinking about talking to him but i wasnt sure if he was still in VA. also i havent seen him post in a while

guess i ended up contacting him anyway, i just shot him an email

 

[Miller '72]

Yes on the Forest Service Crosscut Saw Manual. Warren Miller is an old friend, and knows what he is talking about. Many years ago I gave him his first "WARREN" axe.

That's a great gift with a great sense of humor!! ... I look for Miller's Falls Co tools myself.
I am glad to have found the right man in the right videos, I will continue watching and rewatching...the comfort and ease that he discusses the saw, it's parts, maintenance and care... reminded me of another gentleman of equal passion and knowledge discussing proper axe care, maintenance and use.
I can and do watch and rewatch these videos simply for their no BS, plainly spoken, direct delivery of facts on important and fading topics that do not require any flare or smoke shows.
I had a forestry professor that held my attention just as you both do in your videos. No BS, called it what it was and how she saw it, with passion and experience. A great teacher this makes no matter the topic.

Thank you Old Axeman,
Thank you Warren Miller.

 

[Miller '72]

i was thinking about talking to him but i wasnt sure if he was still in VA. also i havent seen him post in a while

guess i ended up contacting him anyway, i just shot him an email

Great and smart direction phantom, I hope you guys can connect or you learn of someone else that is recommended to you.
I would be interested to learn if he ever comes reasonably close to CT.
Can't beat a good hands on instruction.

 

[Square_peg]

Dan is an even better filer now than he was when he made that video. He's one of the best for sure.

 

[Old Axeman]

Thanks Miller'72. It has been many years since I have talked to Warren. Last time I saw him at the Forest Service 9 mile training center he was still living in his little cabin outside Peck Idaho. I hope Warren is doing OK.

 

[Miller '72]

Thanks Miller'72. It has been many years since I have talked to Warren. Last time I saw him at the Forest Service 9 mile training center he was still living in his little cabin outside Peck Idaho. I hope Warren is doing OK.

I hope so too, Warren comes across as a very fine man in the videos.
Not sure where Peck is in Idaho, but years back I was lucky to have the opportunity to backpack thru the panhandle and I have not hiked or camped in more beautiful country.
The bears were nice and we'll mannered too, of course I mind my P and Q's with them when in their home.

 

[Miller '72]

I am still reading the forest service manual and watching the Warren Miller videos before I start hunting for the proper tools and sharpening.
I thought I would show you what I have after a little cleaning.
Before

After

Please no applause for my penmanship and artwork...

Patiently chomping at the bit to learn to sharpen properly with the proper tools.
Thanks for looking