Cts-xhp

[Matthew Gregory]

The Cool-Aid that noz drinks?

Nozh-Aid?

..would go a long way to explaining the ridiculous BS he perpetually spews.

...of course, I'm merely a simple knifemaker - a toadie for the Evil Steel Industry. My only interest is to dupe all of you into buying inferior products.

Everyone knows that this is all part of the Illuminati's methods for keeping you under their heel...

 

[nozh2002]

No disrespect intended but I have no clue what your response means.

Are you saying that companies won't use this steel (CTS-XHP) because they want to sell us what you consider cheaper, inferior steel and saying they can't get this steel?

Help me out here. What's wrong with them selling stock that is very good and keeping costs down so it's more affordable for us? If that's where you're going with that post?? (if that's what they're doing - lying to us?)

CPM S30V is very, very good steel IMHO.

OK, I'll try again. CPM S30V was pushed as better replacement for CPM S60V. It was cry everywhere how good it is. Results on my test - pretty average. Independent results on CATRA machine recently revealed - CPM S60V almost twice better then CPM S30V. So I feel like I was mislead to believe that CPM S30V was fair replacement to CPM S60V in 2003-2004 time frame.

It was of course some reason behind that move, but it was not about providing better performing steel. Being twice less on CATRA results it was also 6 times less wear resistant - meaning much better to grind and much cheaper - see previous remark from former Crucible employee.

Similar push I see with Elmax and M390 - average test results, same as for CPM S30V. Before CTS XHP came to place it was only ZDP-189 and Dozier D2 on the top, plus some custom carbon steels. And I can understand that US manufacturers hesitate to use Japanese ZDP-189 and push for American CPM 154, CPM D2, CPM M4 etc... even they performs less then ZDP-189.

But now when there is clear alternative to ZDP-189 it is very confusing, why new real super steel - domestic I should mention, is not in use and it is European Elmax and M390 pushed so hard?

Why made in USA steel which has superior performance are not in use for over year when it hits market first?

I do not really know. And please, do not make any suggestions for me. I just see that US super performing steel being not used for over year now while average European steels presented as just perfect for everything, even bringing "happiness". I also not really comfortable with this not available excuse - I already told why.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[cziv]

Thank you Vasilli. I understand exactly what you mean now. :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

But now when there is clear alternative to ZDP-189 it is very confusing, why new real super steel - domestic I should mention, is not in use and it is European Elmax and M390 pushed so hard?

Why made in USA steel which has superior performance are not in use for over year when it hits market first?

I do not really know. And please, do not make any suggestions for me. I just see that US super performing steel being not used for over year now while average European steels presented as just perfect for everything, even bringing "happiness". I also not really comfortable with this not available excuse - I already told why.

Thanks, Vassili.

That question has been answered so many times in this thread that is not hard to find it.

Bottom line is they can't make knives out of a steel that they can't get and or in quantities to make more than a few knives out of.

Now it looks like it might be available again here in the near future in quantities that the production makers can use.

There isn't a conspiracy against Carpenter, never was.

Carpenter had production issues so if there was a shortage of CTS-XHP then look to Carpenter, not the knife companies.

 

[Jason B.]

Its been covered more than once that CPM-S60V was replaced by CPM-S90V. Even if S30V replaced S60V I don't see it as such a bad deal considering the problems with S60V.

CPM-S60V was a nightmare to grind and had brittleness problems that were very obvious. If all the knife did was skin game and cut rope then it might be fine but under normal everyday use it did not have all the right qualities. I won't doubt for a minute S60V held a edge longer than S30V but S30V is tougher, far less prone to chipping and blade snapping, easier to sharpen, and is still a step above the average.

Edge retention is a factor but its not the only way to rank a knife steel. If this is the only concern then buy a ceramic knife, it will hold a edge longer than any steel.

Its obvious that through only cutting rope a bias has been created. Putting well noted steels like M4, 154, D2, S30V, elmax, and whatever others are considered "inferior" down shows that well rounded knowledge of the steels performance is not known. More people don't like ZDP because its not tough, it chips, its not the easiest to sharpen, that's great it holds a edge but more is demanded from a knife than simple cutting.

I guess I'm one of the mislead fools though because I very much like ELMAX and CPM D2 and M4 and SR101. Though these steels might not rank the highest in edge retention they bring me the things I want in a blade steel and still hold a very respectable edge. Steel choice is a lot about individual needs, pick the wrong steel for the task and you will get poor results.


Get caught up in what's "best" and you can loose sight of the big picture.

 

[Ankerson]

Its been covered more than once that CPM-S60V was replaced by CPM-S90V. Even if S30V replaced S60V I don't see it as such a bad deal considering the problems with S60V.

CPM-S60V was a nightmare to grind and had brittleness problems that were very obvious. If all the knife did was skin game and cut rope then it might be fine but under normal everyday use it did not have all the right qualities. I won't doubt for a minute S60V held a edge longer than S30V but S30V is tougher, far less prone to chipping and blade snapping, easier to sharpen, and is still a step above the average.

.

Yep, and S90V was even worse to grind and make knife blades out of than S60V and even harder to HT and Temper. But S90V doesn't have the same chipping and brittleness issues that S60V does so it makes a much better knife blade all around.

S90V is a real SOB to work with from what some knife makers have told me, that's also the reason why we don't see very much of it out there in knife blades. The makers who will work with it demand a premium so they aren't going to be cheap.

 

[nozh2002]

That question has been answered so many times in this thread that is not hard to find it.

Bottom line is they can't make knives out of a steel that they can't get and or in quantities to make more than a few knives out of.

Now it looks like it might be available again here in the near future in quantities that the production makers can use.

There isn't a conspiracy against Carpenter, never was.

Carpenter had production issues so if there was a shortage of CTS-XHP then look to Carpenter, not the knife companies.

Why are you stepping up here this way? What part of knife industry do you representing here? Is it insider information?

How come special melt CTS-BD1 happened but not CTS-XHP? To me it does not looks like knife industry is staying in line waiting for attention from Carpenter. They have enough attention to make new special steel for them but not to make their regular production?

And how long it take to produce steel if there is a demand? It is almost year now and nothing happened. But Hinderer making it and some custom makers as well (and I do not think it is much smaller amountd then let say 300 limited run for some production brand). It does not looks like availability issue. More like profitability, I think. Or overstock or whatever. Bottom line is that it is almost year now when it hit market first and no knives out of it available. Even ZDP-189 turnout was much faster - after first was introduced.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ankerson]

Why are you stepping up here this way? What part of knife industry do you representing here? Is it insider information?

How come special melt CTS-BD1 happened but not CTS-XHP? To me it does not looks like knife industry is staying in line waiting for attention from Carpenter. They have enough attention to make new special steel for them but not to make their regular production?

And how long it take to produce steel if there is a demand? It is almost year now and nothing happened. But Hinderer making it and some custom makers as well (and I do not think it is much smaller amountd then let say 300 limited run for some production brand). It does not looks like availability issue. More like profitability, I think. Or overstock or whatever. Bottom line is that it is almost year now when it hit market first and no knives out of it available. Even ZDP-189 turnout was much faster - after first was introduced.

Thanks, Vassili.

There is a lot more to producing steel that the knife companies can use than you think and I am not going to go into it here or ever for that matter.

It's really not as simple as some think it is, it's a very involved complicated process.

 

[nozh2002]

How many knives with CPM S60V do you have? It was gone 2003 and I doubt you were around that time. I have however over 5 and I has first hand experience.

CPM S60V were not brittle at all - at least for knife blades (I can not say about industrial cutting machines which prefers CPM S90V). Edge retention CATRA test show twice better performance then CPM S30V and same is seen during practical use.

It was one of the best steel at that time.

Now I never sad that SR101 is inferior steel as well as CPM D2 and CPM M4. CPM M4 and CPM D2 are pretty good (not as it was presented, but they are in a first dozen) and SR101 is very good and I was telling that for years.

Elmax is pretty average, but others I never mentions as such. They are of course behind ZDP-189 and CTS-XHP and Dozier D2.

Why are you misrepresenting my view?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

There is a lot more to producing steel that the knife companies can use than you think and I am not going to go into it here or ever for that matter.

It's really not as simple as some think it is, it's a very involved complicated process.

You are talking like insider. Are you? Because more I see that, more I wonder.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ankerson]

How many knives with CPM S60V do you have? It was gone 2003 and I doubt you were around that time. I have however over 5 and I has first hand experience.

CPM S60V were not brittle at all - at least for knife blades (I can not say about industrial cutting machines which prefers CPM S90V). Edge retention CATRA test show twice better performance then CPM S30V and same is seen during practical use.

It was one of the best steel at that time.

Now I never sad that SR101 is inferior steel as well as CPM D2 and CPM M4. CPM M4 and CPM D2 are pretty good (not as it was presented, but they are in a first dozen) and SR101 is very good and I was telling that for years.

Elmax is pretty average, but others I never mentions as such. They are of course behind ZDP-189 and CTS-XHP and Dozier D2.

Why are you misrepresenting my view?

Thanks, Vassili.

I was around long before 2003 and testing knives on and off since the early 80's.

S60V blades do I own now?

None, and I don't want any.

I do have a few S60V blades here now to do more testing on though and once I am done with them they will go back to the owner.

 

[Ankerson]

You are talking like insider. Are you? Because more I see that, more I wonder.

Thanks, Vassili.

I am just a guy who has had way too many knives over the years and does his research and testing.

I was personally involved in the testing of the S.A.W and M16A2 with others.

 

[Noctis3880]

I guess I'm one of the mislead fools though because I very much like ELMAX and CPM D2 and M4 and SR101. Though these steels might not rank the highest in edge retention they bring me the things I want in a blade steel and still hold a very respectable edge. Steel choice is a lot about individual needs, pick the wrong steel for the task and you will get poor results.

You just said something crazy there.

Highest in edge retention would probably be something like CPM Rex 121, but damned if anyone is willing to work with it. I can just see Duane Dwyer grinding away at a blade on a DMT XXC diamond plate. I can also see it rusting away because you breathed on it.

But yes, steel choice has more to do with what the average consumer needs. And a steel that covers all the bases(toughness, wear resistance, hardness, corrosion resistance, workability) with decent scores will forever be a preferred choice over a steel that holds an edge forever, but is near impossible to sharpen, rusts from the humidity of a desert, breaks apart like glass when you cut something harder than a carrot, or is soft enough for you to dent the steel with your fingers.


I think the point Vassili is missing entirely is that S60V is too much of a bitch to grind, and thus cannot ever replace S30V as a general user steel. And if he's still whining about the lack of CTS-XHP, then he obviously missed the opportunity to pre-order the Spyderco Brown Military sprint run in that steel, and we need to call a whambulance.

 

[The Mastiff]

Vassili, your usual arrogance about your steel rating system is easy enough to take. So is your refusal to pick up bits of knowledge that have been repeated over and over again, such as 440V/S60V being chippy at higher hardnesses.

What I can't stomach is your insistence that people like Sal G., and Thomas W. are lying , and part of some conspiracy.

Being a block of wood is one thing, but having paranoid delusions about people that have a well earned reputation for honesty and straight shooting is inexcusable. Why you are allowed to continue posting here is beyond me.

Joe

 

[Jason B.]

I have one S60V blade left, its a kershaw. I have been collecting, using, and testing my own blades for nearly 20 years now. My experience goes much further back than internet forums. Where are all your S60V blades from?

My steel examples were just examples, the way you compare steels makes one think they are junk when they are simply in different categories. ZDP might be a good steel for you but for me its not a steel I would be happy with because of its overall performance. My dad has a ZDP endura and I'm the one fixing the chips and broken tips because the steel is not tough enough for his uses. He's tough on a blade, the type of user with no regard for the knife itself and total neglect for proper cutting technique. I bought him that blade because of its known edge retention, I didn't factor in his skill level or respect for a cutting tool thus bringing out faults in the steel choice. Calling it "best" or "better than" in this case was misleading to me and I ended up finding out the hard way.

I'm not sure what you mean by "misrepresent your views" you can view things anyway you want. If you want to state a steel is better than another that's fine but don't throw the other steels under the bus. Maybe explain why its better or what performance advantage it might have over another in a given task. Keeps from confusing people on what is really "best".

 

[jimnolimit]

i might not be the most knowledgeable person here, or tested the most knives, but i have put many a blade to my stones throughout the years. there never will be the "best", only the best at certain tasks. people become more wrapped up in certain aspects than the whole picture. high alloy steels are expensive and hard to produce in significant quantities which could lead to some problems. CTS-XHP was made into knives with limited production. sure, i can say the highest alloy steels are "best" for a knife, but there are other factors i must consider. each one of these steels has a purpose and most where never intended for use in consumer knives.

p.s. i have had many a fine beer tonight, if i said anything that is incorrect, please correct me.

 

[Planterz]

The Cool-Aid that noz drinks?

That's some pretty strong Cool-Aid for sure.

Cool-Aid may be?

May be my problem is that I am not drinking Cool Aid?

Please, people. It's Kool-Aid.

Get it right.

 

[Ankerson]

Please, people. It's Kool-Aid.

Get it right.

Sorry, I haven't drank that stuff since Tang came out..

 

[sodak]

Why are you stepping up here this way? What part of knife industry do you representing here? Is it insider information?

This was the funniest post I've read in a long, long time. What really makes it good is that it wasn't supposed to be funny!

Ankerson, you're EEEEVVVIIIIILLLLLL! Disagree with Oz, the great and powerful, and it's a conspiracy, and you MUST be part of it!!!!!!

I'm still laughing, sorry.....

Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone is not out to get you!

 

[Ankerson]

This was the funniest post I've read in a long, long time. What really makes it good is that it wasn't supposed to be funny!

Ankerson, you're EEEEVVVIIIIILLLLLL! Disagree with Oz, the great and powerful, and it's a conspiracy, and you MUST be part of it!!!!!!

I'm still laughing, sorry.....

Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone is not out to get you!

I did get a chuckle out of that myself.