Do you believe, and more discussion.

[TheTourist]

I believe in two things. One, I believe in God.

Two, I believe that a very angry man, even small in stature, is a very adverse enemy.

Edit: BTW, for those doubters, I intended to enter DeSales Preparatory Seminary in Milwaukee in 1964. Then my dad saw the price of tuition! I think I would have made a good and needed priest. There are boys just like me out there who don't know God loves them, and I speak their language.

 

[Prester John]

LGBT people are seeking acceptance within the wider community, for who they naturally are.

If you were familiar with the Bible, you should know that it teaches that homosexuality is a sin--a very serious sin. People choose to be that way. They can repent and change. Homosexual practices have been outlawed by many societies throughout history, not just by Christians.

All them different Gods and Saviors can't be real and true at the same time. Seems to me other factors are at play that likely have a more natural basis and are very much worthy of consideration before invoking, say, a holy ghost.

You are right: all them gods can't be true at the same time. We believe in one God. All others are false.

Speaking for myself, I have taken the time to gain an objective understanding, at least as best I reasonably can, of the formation, history and development of Christianity, its beliefs and Canon. That has lead me to the conclusion that the fundamental Christian story as presented in the NT is not historically true. Among other things.

There are probably a couple of billion people on earth right now that believe the New Testament is true. And untold multitudes over the last two millennia. Maybe you should at least consider that you could be wrong.

 

[SVTFreak]

Thank you for the reponse SVT.

I'm glad to hear your church is successful in helping people to find peace in their lives. My mothers church is quite similar in our (small) community.
However, the question I see there is, do churches like that benefit people because Yahweh and the Christian story as per the New Testament are real and true? Or some other sociological or psychological reasons?

Who knows. It could very well be the individuals desire to find peace leads to the biggest difference. But the church is still the medium. Let’s assume that God doesn’t exist for a minute. Would the church’s existence still be a good thing since it helped someone? I actually agree that it may not be all the churches doing. But I do believe that Gods loving embrace and following his laws exponentially increase the peace found. As I told someone once. Even if you don’t believe in God, if you live by the rules set in the Bible, you will have a peaceful and fulfilling life. But if you have faith in God, it’ll be even better.

I think that's a valid question for a few reasons. For example, in countries where other religions are dominant, be it Hindu, Islam, Judaism or whatever, these places also have their version of churches and religious parts of their communities that can and do provide the same kind of support for people as we both see in Christian communities.
All them different Gods and Saviors can't be real and true at the same time. Seems to me other factors are at play that likely have a more natural basis and are very much worthy of consideration before invoking, say, a holy ghost.

Actually, judaism, Muslims and Christians all share the same God. The difference is how each believe you access and come to know him. Christianity believes that Jesus is Gods son and his sacrifice opened the door for us to know God on a personal level. Judaism is still waiting on that savior, as they expect a king in the traditional sense. And Muslims believe that Mohammed was the way to God. Jesus is known as a prophet in the other two religions. It has always baffled me that the 3 religions can’t get along even though they believe in the same God. Our pastor said it best. Churches would get along and get so much good done if they’d quit arguing over what color their alter is supposed to be. But we do know that God works through both believers and non believers. In the Bible, he has used people who did not worship him to achieve his will. See the destruction and exile if Israel and their return.

This comment doesn't seem correct to me. In that example, Christians are trying to impose their faith based religious beliefs on the rest of society, beliefs that are harmful to LGBT people specifically.
LGBT people are seeking acceptance within the wider community, for who they naturally are.
Seems to me that's 2 quite different things.

think about it like this. If someone wanted to put hot food in their mouth, would you stop them, even if they really really wanted to? That’s a decent analogy. They think “what they are doing is leading them to a forever of pain, if I stop them now, they won’t feel that pain”. I do disagree with the way many go about that, as I feel it makes people resent religion, which is opposite of what God wants me to be trying to do.

Yes I agree, the assisted dying and abortion debates are hugely important issues, and as such I have nowhere near enough understanding to weigh in on them.
What I do believe is that religious views on those subjects should have no input whatsoever to those public and legislative debates, as they have no valid evidential, objective or rational basis, regardless of how sincerely believers consider themselves to be right.

We’ll have to agree to disagree here. I feel that a baby’s body is theirs. It couldn’t help that it was planted in the body of someone who didn’t want to. Yes, I agree a woman’s body is hers but i also say that that babies body is it’s own. People have to deal with the repercussions of their choices. I do realize that rape and such is a different case and that gets into a discussion that I’d rather not have because I am torn on that. Big time. I don’t know how I feel much less how I could argue what I am unsure about.

Yes, I also see that, the sincere Christian that is honestly applying their beliefs, genuinely thinking they are working to 'save' someone. I have no doubt of the sincerity of belief and good intent of such Christians, and know some myself.

Im glad you see that Christians are trying to do good. I promise you that there is much more good being done by us than bad. Unfortunately, the news makes it seem like we are all self righteous, judgemental hypocrites. I assure you, most of us who really try are humble and just want to help people, no matter their belief. If they convert, that’s icing on the cake.

Speaking for myself, I have taken the time to gain an objective understanding, at least as best I reasonably can, of the formation, history and development of Christianity, its beliefs and Canon. That has lead me to the conclusion that the fundamental Christian story as presented in the NT is not historically true. Among other things.

Now if I, an average blue collar guy, can do that, I find myself thinking it irresponsible for believing Christians to not make a similar objective effort, and instead just go for the 'faith' option. Particularly if they intend to engage on important societal issues.

I do believe that the Bible is the truth. While individual accounts could be argued, the basic truth that it holds is the same. I feel that arguing about weather details are true is a ruse. Those details don’t matter. The things that do matter are consistent. The items that do carry from the old covenant to the new are consistent. The very basic “rules” don’t change from beginning to end.


Great reply, my friend. You’ve made me consider some things that I haven’t before.

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I will let more apt explainers comment on the rest of your post, but I found this ironic.

There are numerous documented observations of homosexual behaviour in the animal world, which indicate it is a naturally occurring phenomena. People are of the primate animal group.
Could you give any reason other than religious belief to indicate that any sexual orientation other than hetero is unnatural?

 

[Cursum Perficio]

If you were familiar with the Bible, you should know that it teaches that homosexuality is a sin--a very serious sin. People choose to be that way. They can repent and change. Homosexual practices have been outlawed by many societies throughout history, not just by Christians.

You are right: all them gods can't be true at the same time. We believe in one God. All others are false.

There are probably a couple of billion people on earth right now that believe the New Testament is true. And untold multitudes over the last two millennia. Maybe you should at least consider that you could be wrong.

Yes sir I have some familiarity with the Bible. I know of its admonitions against homosexuality, and also that it endorses slavery. And many other things, both very good and very bad.
As a standalone argument against homosexuality, biblical passages have no validity outside of people who choose to accept fundamental Christian beliefs.
So Christians who choose to believe like that can live by that themselves if they want to. But for Christians to denigrate LGBT people by seeking to push their discriminatory religious beliefs onto everyone else, is most unfitting in today's society.

I disagree strongly with the claim that homosexual people "... choose to be that way". If you can validate that claim in any way other than biblical passages, I would be interested to know.

You are right: all them gods can't be true at the same time. We believe in one God. All others are false.

Your lack of belief in Zeus, Serapis, Shiva, or any other deity is, in a literal sense, atheism with regard to those gods. I agree with you on that, and go just one god further. And it's for exactly the same reason - I can find no real, convincing reason to believe otherwise.
To be clear Vince, I respect your right to believe as you see fit, provided that practicing your beliefs does impinge on the rights of anyone else.
However, I can find no good rational reason to respect the actual beliefs.

There are probably a couple of billion people on earth right now that believe the New Testament is true. And untold multitudes over the last two millennia. Maybe you should at least consider that you could be wrong.

Oh yes, vast numbers of people believe the NT is true.
How many of them have read it? Many have, no doubt. But I'm inclined to think many haven't.
How many have sought to objectively understand the real history of the NT and how it came about? Precious few I think.

May I suggest that my posts here are indicative of someone who has indeed considered that I could be wrong.

 

[Cursum Perficio]

SVTFreak that's a good response that I will read again, thank you.

It's near sleep time, another long day at the office tomorrow, so may I just select a few points for now.

Actually, judaism, Muslims and Christians all share the same God... Our pastor said it best. Churches would get along and get so much good done if they’d quit arguing over what color their alter is supposed to be.

Yes, the god of Abraham, my bad, I picked poorly for the example I gave.
Honestly, I like that comment from your Pastor, simple yet it covers so much.

Im glad you see that Christians are trying to do good. I promise you that there is much more good being done by us than bad. Unfortunately, the news makes it seem like we are all self righteous, judgemental hypocrites. I assure you, most of us who really try are humble and just want to help people, no matter their belief. If they convert, that’s icing on the cake.

I can agree with this, for I know Christians just like you describe there, and what they often do for people generally.
And yes, media gets more ratings by stories of nutters rather than the so common everyday good things going on. Misleading indeed.

I won't repeat past comments here, other than to say I see the good things coming from people, from human nature. Not from anything supernatural, regardless of what or why said people believe them.

Before I disappear for another 24 hours I will be a little more open.

My mother is a sincere Christian, always has been, always will be. As a child I regularly went to church and sunday school and learned Bible stories etc with my siblings.
By early teens I could see things that seemed wrong to me in some way or another with religion, things weren't adding up. So I told Mum I didn't want to go to church anymore. Mum accepted that, no pressure on me at all, though I know it grieves her to this day, many years later. I have a wonderful mother BTW.

As a child, one is very susceptible to believing what one is told. I had these beliefs in the back of my mind for years, and if I questioned any Christian about them, fairly quickly got to the subject of 'faith'. Have faith. Believe as a matter of faith.

I chewed that over for a long time, and no matter how I cut it, faith in the religious sense is, by definition, irrational.
I find I can't do irrational. I don't believe on faith, when faith means believing something not only without evidence, but also in the face of contradictory evidence.

Just because I found I couldn't accept Christian beliefs on faith, doesn't mean I tossed it aside. The childhood impression in my consciousness prevented that.
So I decided to try and figure it out rationally and objectively. And over a lot of years, here and there, on and off (in between girls and 'bikes and intoxication and various things) I have read numerous things on various aspects of Christianity, from many angles and perspectives. And that is still ongoing.

The result so far, the more information I take in and try to objectively ponder, the more it becomes clear to me that the supernatural beliefs of Christianity are not, indeed cannot, be true, and that the development of Christianity in the first few centuries CE was not at all how mainstream Christianity presents it.

It's rare to be able to discuss such topics, so I appreciate being able to do so here.

 

[SVTFreak]

Cursum Perficio , it sounds as you and I share a common background up until we diverge, you tipping to looking for hard and tangible evidence, and myself taking that leap of faith. I am, by normal measures, very intelligent, love science, and also like evidence. That is something that I struggle with quite often. Hearing that voice always trying to convince me that it isn’t real is a battle I fight in my heart often. Casting Crowns has a song that I listen to often “the voice of truth” (tells me a different story, the voice of truth, says do not be afraid). But when I look back to the unexplainable things that’s happened, simply because I put faith in God and asked him, sometimes begged him, for help, and he did. That’s the all the evidence I need. Kinda (very simplified lol) I’ve never seen my own brain but only the evidence of its work. One thing that i think helps some people is finding a church, or a group of people within a church, who share what God has put on your heart, a church where the pastor (or priest) has goals and missions that match yours. When Gods people come together, amazing things can happen. Both explainable and not.

Yes I agree. It’s hard to have good discussions without it turning into a Christianity witch hunt (and imagine hard to have them without it turning into a judgemental damning).

 

[Houlahound]

Even if you don’t believe in God, if you live by the rules set in the Bible,

Not true, if you followed the rules in the bible you would be in prison or a nut- house.......unless you are cherry picking the less crazy bits.

 

[Houlahound]

In your example, Pascal would never utter the words you ascribe to him--he would, I imagine, simply fall down and worship God. And I suspect the atheist would be quivering in terror because he knows he deserves what he's going to get--God did give him a conscience, after all, no matter how he tries to ignore it.

Make no mistake, these are just your beliefs, belief and fantasy are pretty much the same. Nothing you have said can be shown to be true.

 

[orangejoe35]

If you were familiar with the Bible, you should know that it teaches that homosexuality is a sin--a very serious sin. People choose to be that way. They can repent and change. Homosexual practices have been outlawed by many societies throughout history, not just by Christians.

The Bible claims tons of things are sins, like eating cheeseburgers. It’s the willful intolerance of others that drives me from Christianity. It always will. I’d rather go to the Christian’s Hell than be associated with them.

 

[Prester John]

There are numerous documented observations of homosexual behaviour in the animal world, which indicate it is a naturally occurring phenomena. People are of the primate animal group.
Could you give any reason other than religious belief to indicate that any sexual orientation other than hetero is unnatural?

I would think it's obvious: male and female were meant to go together. Don't know why I would have to explain it.

By the way, don't know about your example with animals, but if it happens, it's aberrant behaviour. The Fall affected all of Creation, not just Man. Death entered the world because of Man's sin, for example.

 

[Prester John]

Yes sir I have some familiarity with the Bible. I know of its admonitions against homosexuality, and also that it endorses slavery. And many other things, both very good and very bad.
As a standalone argument against homosexuality, biblical passages have no validity outside of people who choose to accept fundamental Christian beliefs.
So Christians who choose to believe like that can live by that themselves if they want to. But for Christians to denigrate LGBT people by seeking to push their discriminatory religious beliefs onto everyone else, is most unfitting in today's society.

I disagree strongly with the claim that homosexual people "... choose to be that way". If you can validate that claim in any way other than biblical passages, I would be interested to know.




Your lack of belief in Zeus, Serapis, Shiva, or any other deity is, in a literal sense, atheism with regard to those gods. I agree with you on that, and go just one god further. And it's for exactly the same reason - I can find no real, convincing reason to believe otherwise.
To be clear Vince, I respect your right to believe as you see fit, provided that practicing your beliefs does impinge on the rights of anyone else.
However, I can find no good rational reason to respect the actual beliefs.



Oh yes, vast numbers of people believe the NT is true.
How many of them have read it? Many have, no doubt. But I'm inclined to think many haven't.
How many have sought to objectively understand the real history of the NT and how it came about? Precious few I think.

May I suggest that my posts here are indicative of someone who has indeed considered that I could be wrong.

Very well. You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs. I respect that. And profoundly disagree with you.

 

[Prester John]

Make no mistake, these are just your beliefs, belief and fantasy are pretty much the same. Nothing you have said can be shown to be true.

Believe that if you want. I ain't twisting your arm. We have different ideas of what's true.

 

[Prester John]

The Bible claims tons of things are sins, like eating cheeseburgers. It’s the willful intolerance of others that drives me from Christianity. It always will. I’d rather go to the Christian’s Hell than be associated with them.

Don't remember reading that about cheeseburgers. I may be in trouble! Seriously, any Christian that says you can't eat cheeseburgers is a nut.

And if you'd rather go to hell, the choice is yours. I'd rather see you repent and be converted.

 

[orangejoe35]

Don't remember reading that about cheeseburgers. I may be in trouble! Seriously, any Christian that says you can't eat cheeseburgers is a nut.

And if you'd rather go to hell, the choice is yours. I'd rather see you repent and be converted.

It takes some gymnastics for a Christian to tell you why he doesn't eat a kosher diet. To my understanding, traditionally, it's not kosher to top beef with cheese. If I apply the same logic to other lifestyle choices, I get a similar result. Romans Chapter 14 seems to say something similar if you read the whole chapter, but I don't put much faith in Pauline Epistles, but that's just me.

 

[Prester John]

What gymnastics? And why use the word "kosher"? Christians are not under the Old Testament dietary restrictions. And I've never heard that you can't eat a cheeseburger. Where did you hear that? I suppose there could be a small isolated Protestant sect that teaches that, but that's pretty weird.

 

[orangejoe35]

What gymnastics? And why use the word "kosher"? Christians are not under the Old Testament dietary restrictions. And I've never heard that you can't eat a cheeseburger. Where did you hear that? I suppose there could be a small isolated Protestant sect that teaches that, but that's pretty weird.

The New Testament only says so much about not eating food prohibited in the Old Testament. There's Mark Chapter 7 and Romans Chapter 14. Both of those chapters seem to have a deeper argument than whether or not unclean foods are to be eaten. There may be more verses, but I only read the Bible so much. The gymnastics I was referring to is that despite the fact that your religion may allow bypassing Old Testament diet, there's not a lot of Bible verses saying not to worry about it. It's likely that Jesus ate more or less that way. I don't care what you eat. I know Christians don't eat a kosher diet. It's okay. I just don't know how they justify it while condemning others for not following Old Testament law or for not adhering to messages written to specific churches in specific places at specific times.

The part about cheeseburgers would apply more to Jewish people than Christian people, it comes from an interpretation of Exodus 23:19. Some people reading the Book of Exodus aren't Christians, so some interpretations aren't Christian.

You seem to have no problem with societies having laws against things like homosexuality. I do. For the record, once again, I'm not a Christian. I'm just not in the business of judging others for what they do in their spare time. It just doesn't seem Christlike.

 

[Prester John]

The New Testament only says so much about not eating food prohibited in the Old Testament. There's Mark Chapter 7 and Romans Chapter 14. Both of those chapters seem to have a deeper argument than whether or not unclean foods are to be eaten. There may be more verses, but I only read the Bible so much. The gymnastics I was referring to is that despite the fact that your religion may allow bypassing Old Testament diet, there's not a lot of Bible verses saying not to worry about it. It's likely that Jesus ate more or less that way. I don't care what you eat. I know Christians don't eat a kosher diet. It's okay. I just don't know how they justify it while condemning others for not following Old Testament law or for not adhering to messages written to specific churches in specific places at specific times.

The part about cheeseburgers would apply more to Jewish people than Christian people, it comes from an interpretation of Exodus 23:19. Some people reading the Book of Exodus aren't Christians, so some interpretations aren't Christian.

You seem to have no problem with societies having laws against things like homosexuality. I do. For the record, once again, I'm not a Christian. I'm just not in the business of judging others for what they do in their spare time. It just doesn't seem Christlike.

I also have no problem with societies having laws against murder, robbery, theft, arson, assault, rape, etc. Sodomy is a serious sin, and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because of it. The Bible says sin is a reproach to any people, and righteousness exalteth a nation. I understand you are not a Christian, but I am, and that's what I believe.

 

[orangejoe35]

Well, I like sodomy as much as the next guy. I have to get to work before church lets out, because as much as those people don’t like it that I’m working on a Sunday, they sure don’t mind paying me to do it.

 

[SVTFreak]

Not true, if you followed the rules in the bible you would be in prison or a nut- house.......unless you are cherry picking the less crazy bits.

No, not at all. The Bible is very clear for Christians as far as to what is required. Love God and love each other as yourself. The New Testament later on expands on the second item there, all of which are common sense things. Paul expands on those two laws a bit, adding murder and sexual immorality to the list. Quite simple and none of those would lead you to prison. Stop hearing snippets of what others say and coming to a discussion using words based in things you’ve read from people who heard a single like from someone who once read something from someone who once saw a Bible.

The Bible claims tons of things are sins, like eating cheeseburgers. It’s the willful intolerance of others that drives me from Christianity. It always will. I’d rather go to the Christian’s Hell than be associated with them.

The New Testament did away with the clean/unclean laws. Not knowing this shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the differences, albeit sometimes subtle, when the law changes. How can you persecute when you don’t know the words?

These are perfect examples of why it is hard to have discussions about this. 99% of the people only know what they’ve read, which was usually written by someone who didn’t read it, compounded several times. Most of what’s used in the anti Christianity argument is simply untrue. I will concede that most of the animosity and dislike is because of a small percentage of “Christians” who are way way out there and, in my opinion, not following that love others as yourself cut. And I do understand how that can make someone dislike anyone associated with us. Single versus taken completely out of context used during discussions cause more harm than good.

FWIW, I enjoy helping or discussing things like (single verse context, versus that are taken out of context) that with curious people if ever there is some. It helps people understand and it helps me learn more. If you ever want to. But I will not be belittled. I almost left the above alone but decided to use that to point out why it’s so hard to hold decent discussions.