Do you believe, and more discussion.

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SVTFreak said:
Love God and love each other as yourself. The New Testament later on expands on the second item there, all of which are common sense things. Paul expands on those two laws a bit, adding murder and sexual immorality to the list. Quite simple and none of those would lead you to prison
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You are cherry picking as I said you would.

Have you not read the bible or are you deliberately trying to deceive?
 
SVTFreak said:
No, not at all. The Bible is very clear for Christians as far as to what is required. Love God and love each other as yourself. The New Testament later on expands on the second item there, all of which are common sense things. Paul expands on those two laws a bit, adding murder and sexual immorality to the list. Quite simple and none of those would lead you to prison. Stop hearing snippets of what others say and coming to a discussion using words based in things you’ve read from people who heard a single like from someone who once read something from someone who once saw a Bible.



The New Testament did away with the clean/unclean laws. Not knowing this shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the differences, albeit sometimes subtle, when the law changes. How can you persecute when you don’t know the words?

These are perfect examples of why it is hard to have discussions about this. 99% of the people only know what they’ve read, which was usually written by someone who didn’t read it, compounded several times. Most of what’s used in the anti Christianity argument is simply untrue. I will concede that most of the animosity and dislike is because of a small percentage of “Christians” who are way way out there and, in my opinion, not following that love others as yourself cut. And I do understand how that can make someone dislike anyone associated with us. Single versus taken completely out of context used during discussions cause more harm than good.

FWIW, I enjoy helping or discussing things like (single verse context, versus that are taken out of context) that with curious people if ever there is some. It helps people understand and it helps me learn more. If you ever want to. But I will not be belittled. I almost left the above alone but decided to use that to point out why it’s so hard to hold decent discussions.
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Look, I am not using single verse context. The part about the cheeseburgers is relevant to a single verse, however, it’s not the Christians that apply it to their lives, it’s Jewish people. Otherwise, the point was there are Christian beliefs I don’t believe. In other parts of this thread, it was suggested to take Pascal’s wager. I said I didn’t think it would be right to fake a belief for insurance. It was otherwise suggested that in other societies, people make just decisions without Christian faith. Then it was suggested that that wasn’t true because homosexuality is bad. I’m saying I don’t believe it is, and if Christians aren’t bound by Old Testament law, then I don’t feel bad using the same logic for not making laws to punish people for their beliefs. Otherwise, I tried to use bigger picture ideas using whole chapters in context and not single verses. The problem is that I am willing to not have full faith in the Bible as it is written despite my familiarity with it, and others feel that making statements contradictory to their beliefs are impossible to discuss. I don’t have a problem with Christians, I’m not making anti-Christianity arguments. I’m just saying that an effort to discuss being more Christlike is difficult to do while dealing with people who have a hard time understanding that a separate religion from theirs refrains from cheeseburgers because of a single verse in Exodus. It’s okay. Let’s just quit arguing. We believe differently.
 
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SVTFreak said:
No, not at all. The Bible is very clear for Christians as far as to what is required. Love God and love each other as yourself. The New Testament later on expands on the second item there, all of which are common sense things. Paul expands on those two laws a bit, adding murder and sexual immorality to the list. Quite simple and none of those would lead you to prison. Stop hearing snippets of what others say and coming to a discussion using words based in things you’ve read from people who heard a single like from someone who once read something from someone who once saw a Bible.



The New Testament did away with the clean/unclean laws. Not knowing this shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the differences, albeit sometimes subtle, when the law changes. How can you persecute when you don’t know the words?

These are perfect examples of why it is hard to have discussions about this. 99% of the people only know what they’ve read, which was usually written by someone who didn’t read it, compounded several times. Most of what’s used in the anti Christianity argument is simply untrue. I will concede that most of the animosity and dislike is because of a small percentage of “Christians” who are way way out there and, in my opinion, not following that love others as yourself cut. And I do understand how that can make someone dislike anyone associated with us. Single versus taken completely out of context used during discussions cause more harm than good.

FWIW, I enjoy helping or discussing things like (single verse context, versus that are taken out of context) that with curious people if ever there is some. It helps people understand and it helps me learn more. If you ever want to. But I will not be belittled. I almost left the above alone but decided to use that to point out why it’s so hard to hold decent discussions.
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Also, I’m not persecuting anyone. I also enjoy conversations on religious topics, it’s just that for too many people these things add up to fighting words.
 
Houlahound said:
Someone e quote where Jesus says the old testament laws are invalid plz.
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Houlahound said:
You are cherry picking as I said you would.

Have you not read the bible or are you deliberately trying to deceive?
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You make this too easy. Try Hebrews 8:13. Then keep looking. There are many places where the Bible states a new covenant is in place. Jesus tells what the new covenant is in his teaching. Even the Old Testament tells of the new covenant coming and gives some insight. It’s not cherry picking. It’s right there in black and white. I gave you a start, now you can read for more. But I’ll give you a little tidbit. Of gods three types of laws given in OT, two are relaxed. The laws governing morals remain. This is basically the gist. Now go read and study and then we can talk instead of me defending generalized statements.
 
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

Berean Literal Bible
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

New American Standard Bible
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

New King James Version
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
 
orangejoe35 said:
Look, I am not using single verse context. The part about the cheeseburgers is relevant to a single verse, however, it’s not the Christians that apply it to their lives, it’s Jewish people. Otherwise, the point was there are Christian beliefs I don’t believe. In other parts of this thread, it was suggested to take Pascal’s wager. I said I didn’t think it would be right to fake a belief for insurance. It was otherwise suggested that in other societies, people make just decisions without Christian faith. Then it was suggested that that wasn’t true because homosexuality is bad. I’m saying I don’t believe it is, and if Christians aren’t bound by Old Testament law, then I don’t feel bad using the same logic for not making laws to punish people for their beliefs. Otherwise, I tried to use bigger picture ideas using whole chapters in context and not single verses. The problem is that I am willing to not have full faith in the Bible as it is written despite my familiarity with it, and others feel that making statements contradictory to their beliefs are impossible to discuss. I don’t have a problem with Christians, I’m not making anti-Christianity arguments. I’m just saying that an effort to discuss being more Christlike is difficult to do while dealing with people who have a hard time understanding that a separate religion from theirs refrains from cheeseburgers because of a single verse in Exodus. It’s okay. Let’s just quit arguing. We believe differently.
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I see your point. It comes down to the moral law that Christians are still bound by. There is some discussion and thought that many of the laws where meant to keep people safe. So those laws, as people learned to cook meat better, etc, could be relaxed. Like, they won’t get you condemned but they stop you from dying type stuff. There was 3 types of laws in the Old Testament. Civil, ceremonial and moral. Civil law, in many ways, followed moral law. If you take the notion that man had no moral code on their heart at the time, prior to the Holy Spirit, then a written law was needed. The laws that are specifically reiterated in the New Testament are all pretty much word for word from Gods Mosaic law. The ceremonial law is debated, specifically in the context of unclean foods and circumcision, in the New Testament and laid down that faith is more important than empty acts of worship. That’s also where the idea of willful faith versus forced worship comes into play. Faith versus acts debates etc. But, alas, I have digressed. The moral laws are still in place, very clearly given in the New Testament and actually very simple. It’s not cherry picking (as houlahound likes to say) when it’s written. It was predicted in the Old Testament, and reiterated in the new. The book of Hebrews covers a whole lot of this stuff. It’s all there, just takes some digging sometimes.

orangejoe35 said:
Also, I’m not persecuting anyone. I also enjoy conversations on religious topics, it’s just that for too many people these things add up to fighting words.
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You are correct about that. Sometime emotion gets involved. Worse than a sports team discussion! Haha! I think it’s because deep down we both want to convince each other that we are right. Although I’d love my words to open your heart to it, I really just want you to see that we all aren’t cherry picking parts we want so that we can judge you (I’m not and will never judge you btw) and think I’m better than you. That some of us are reasonable and can talk a little bit about whole concepts, not just toss an ill used verse out and hide behind it.
 
Houlahound said:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

Berean Literal Bible
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

New American Standard Bible
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

New King James Version
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
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You are taking one verse. Read the whole New Testament, and check out the link I gave in the last post, which references dozens of Scripture verses. Christians are not under the judicial laws of ancient Israel, nor the ceremonial law. But the moral law is binding on all men at all times.
Christ came to fulfill the law in another sense. He is the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Christ is our Passover. Celebrating Passover any more is unnecessary. The Old Testament sacrifices are unnecessary, because Christ is their fulfillment. They all pointed to Christ.
You can't just take one verse out of context and say "See?" Again, read the whole New Testament. Then read the Old Testament. Then read the New Testament again. Check out the link I provided, and look up each reference. Study, man, study! It may take awhile. But it's worth your time.
 
Houlahound said:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

Berean Literal Bible
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

New American Standard Bible
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

New King James Version
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
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I fully expected you to “cherry pick” that verse. It’s the one everyone loves to. All I can say is, there are many that explain what’s up. Go do some research on that verse and then come back. There are several trains of though (and historical proof), including the fact that this was said before the new covenant came fully into play. There is a lot more but I’ll let you go research if you’re really interested in discussing. But I suspect that’s not the case.
 
Why can't people just believe what they want without having to explain and prove that their beliefs are the only correct ones? IMHO, if you have to prove that your religion is valid, then that tells me that you are not sure.
Example: There have been TV show that try to prove that Exodus happened or that Jesus really existed. They all fail. None of that can be proved. Don't tell me that it can't be disproved. That is not how things work.

I saw this awhile ago :D

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Prester John said:
Christians are not under the judicial laws of ancient Israel, nor the ceremonial law. But the moral law is binding on all men at all times.
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So Jesus was lying or god made a mistake when he wrote the OT.

Of course the Jews dont believe a single word you say and they are kinda the experts on the bible.

Muslims also have a different view, not to mention atheists, indigenous people, any of the thousands of other religions.

It's fine to believe what you want, I support and would fight for your right to do so but when you state your beliefs as facts you are being arrogant and prideful by saying other's contrary beliefs (or lack of) are wrong.
 
Houlahound said:
So Jesus was lying or god made a mistake when he wrote the OT.
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Funny you say that. There is a verse that says God saw a problem with the old covenant, that it could never be sustainable. I don’t recall where though so I can’t find it (and I’m at work atm). (Edit: Hebrews 8:7. I was too curious, had to go find it)

Of course the Jews dont believe a single word you say and they are kinda the experts on the bible.

Muslims also have a different view, not to mention atheists, indigenous people, any of the thousands of other religions.
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yeah, therein lies the issue. Much of that was also predicted in the Bible. And the thing I don’t get is, 3 of them fighting over the same God!

It's fine to believe what you want, I support and would fight for your right to do so but when you state your beliefs as facts you are being arrogant and prideful by saying other's contrary beliefs (or lack of) are wrong.
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Yes, we do state our beliefs as fact. I’ll only state as fact when it’s pretty plainly written. But we all believe it’s fact. It’s a problem with society, often, staying beliefs or opinions as facts. But we have to believe it as fact, and not hide it, otherwise we could be in trouble. Hehe. But we also mustn’t 1) drive people away from God and 2) love each other as ourselves. That’s why you won’t find me damning someone for being gay, having an abortion, etc. But you will find me loving them and accepting them with open arms just as Jesus demands I do. (I hope I haven’t insinuated that I feel any other way about those who don’t believe or have sinned, as we all have).

You’re last words, fighting for, that mean you military? If so, thanks for defending our freedom for exactly this.
 
This has become a discussion of religion(s).
There are many web sites devoted to the discussion of such topics.
BF is not one of those web sites.
Closed.
 
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