Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

Steven W. Knight said:
It appears that the best way - even with all the Diamond Matrix stones - is the marking felt pen and finding the right KNIFE'S ORIGINAL angle(s) - PERIOD.
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Ahdunno that I support such a bold statement. I'll sometimes use a Sharpie just to confirm I'm in the ballpark, but that's all I've found it good for. Sometimes with a single light pass with a clean stone, all the ink will be gone off my edge. But after examination under magnification, it's obvious that the stone and the blade's edge are at different angles. My hypothesis is that loose swarf and slurry is wiping off the ink. It's not a big deal if you understand the limitations of the Sharpie test.
 
It appears that all of us want the easiest way to find the correct "factory" angle on any of our knives we are sharpening.
Thank you "RustyIron" & "David Richardson" for your input.

I received my Edge pro Professional last Friday - and find it easier than the Edge Pro Apex which is going on three years rather soon.
Now my straight razors are just a tad sharper... (smaller angle - LOL)
 
Just recieved my 250,650 and 1100 stones. I think I'm going to break them in by adding a relief bevel to one of my knives. ;-)

This has probably been asked before: Can I use 220 SiC powder instead of 240 AlOx to clean the stones? I have different grit SiC powders at home anyway, but no AlOx powder.
 
D Diemaker

I read through the entire thread as I just got some of the DM stones.

I saw where your nominal thickness is 0.250" in one of your earlier posts.

I marked and measured all of the stones to see how consistent they were stone to stone and across the length. I also wanted to track how they vary over time. I measured 0.500" from each end and in the middle of the stone. Below are the results using a Starret caliper good to +-0.001. I have a Starrett mic good to 50 millionths, but really did not want to use it for this.

650 : 0.247 0.249 0.246
1100: 0.247 0.249 0.247
2300: 0.245 0.246 0.244
4000: 0.244 0.246 0.245

Bought 11/30/20 from Cody

It looks like Ben/Cody's glass is wore and they could probably use a new one to lap them before sending them out. All of them are high in the center. The DM stones really look nice.

I have had the EP Pro from 2000 and the introduction of the DM stones, slide glide and magnet for the Pro are a game changer. I think you have had your hand in the slide glide as well? Thanks for all you have done for the EP community!
 
sai123 - Exactly what that grit is made of is less important than the size. The first grit I used was sand from a spot along the side of the road that the locals use. If it is a more friable SiC then it will not last long but it still works. 120 grit will work but your stones may not last as long, even if you dress for a shorter period. I have used a very soft Alox to dress the finer stones and find it worked fine. In my tests, it was better to not use finer Alox than the diamond in the stone, down to 5-micron for the 4000 stone which uses 5-micron diamond. The finer loose abrasive may not work as well if your dressing plate is dished. Dressing is to remove some bond/resin to expose the diamonds, it shouldn't remove any diamonds or thickness of the stone. The 250 shouldn't need dressing very often, I have well over 2000 strokes on mine and it's working perfectly fine. If they only need cleaning then rubbing alcohol and a paper towel works great. If your stones are really dark it might take two tries to remove all of the color. BKF, Comet, and Ajax work too.

For the record, the 80 DM stone needs at least a 36 grit or coarser abrasive when dressing, I use a very coarse sand for pool filters. If a finer abrasive is used, say 60 grit SiC from EP, the stone WILL NOT perform nearly as well as it should, like it might cut steel 50% or less as fast as when dressed correctly. The 250 needs to be dressed with a 60 grit abrasive, the SiC from EP works great but so does sand of a similar size. The 240 Alox works for the rest of the stones and the finer stones can use finer grits. The 650 needs the 240 when dressing, but 120 would probably work just fine.


jjg6319 - You don't want to use your micrometer on these, and be careful with your calipers, the diamond will readily scratch those precision surfaces and wear the tips fast. I have a coolant proof Mitutoyo caliper that I don't like at all that I use for such abusive tasks.
I will email Cody this morning about this, thank you. Those stones were all between .246" to .252" when new and the initial dressing shouldn't wear more than a few tenths.

Yes on the slide guide, I needed it when I added strong magnets to the table of my sharpener, and I think me playing with magnets spurred Ben to add them too. Did you add magnets to your Pro? And if so how?

Thank you for your support! It's nice when your hobby can also be your line of work. It also helps justify buying and sharpening knives to my wife. You know, "but honey, this is work related".
 
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Diemaker said:
jjg6319 - You don't want to use your micrometer on these, and be careful with your calipers, the diamond will readily scratch those precision surfaces and wear the tips fast. I have a coolant proof Mitutoyo caliper that I don't like at all that I use for such abusive tasks.
Those numbers not only tell me their flat is a bit dished but they are overdressing, probably because the flat is dished. I will email Cody this morning about this, thank you. Those stones were all between .249" to .252" when new and the initial dressing shouldn't wear more than a few tenths.

Yes on the slide guide, I needed it when I added strong magnets to the table of my sharpener, and I think me playing with magnets spurred Ben to add them too. Did you add magnets to your Pro? And if so how?

Thank you for your support! It's nice when your hobby can also be your line of work. It also helps justify buying and sharpening knives to my wife. You know, "but honey, this is work related".
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I did get the magnets for the Pro. I sent in my old table and Ben/Cody swapped it out for the new style that is magnet capable. I am still playing with it to get use to it. I know Ben prefers not to use the magnet but Cody likes them. Thanks for the response!
 
Since I didn't really have any luck with cleaning up the stones with rubbing alcohol, can I use one of these white magic sponges? I know they contain mild abrasives, are these too rough on the binder?
 
D Diemaker : In general, I have found that times when I try to use 90% alcohol to clean something and it does not work that either lacquer thinner or acetone will.

Would either lacquer thinner or acetone harm the DM stone binder?

Thanks,
Jeff
 
If rubbing alcohol doesn't clean them then I bet they need dressing. I will hazard a guess that they got dry while being used, which really makes them dark. The finer the grit the faster they dry out during use and the more sensitive they are to being used dry. If they get used much dry then even if you do get them clean they won't cut very well.

Yes, the white magic sponges will clean them but won't bring them back to working like new.

I haven't tried lacquer thinner but suspect it would attack the resin if soaked but quick wipes wouldn't cause any real harm. Acetone will attack the resin and cause a lot of harm if soaked, and a few quick wipes will start to remove some resin. Keep in mind that acetone goes right through your skin into your blood taking along anything dissolved in it.

I know this is rather late for me to try but I have a couple Nagura stones on the way to try out. Since they create a mud of loose abrasive they should work well to clean and perhaps dress. The reason I have shied away from them is they are smaller than the Matrix stones so they may cause them to wear unevenly. They are also pretty fine so I doubt they will work for the coarser stones, even the 650, but we will see.

Everyone likes to use their EP differently, even at EP. There are 3 main people there who sharpen and none use the sharpeners the same.
 
In my experience, atleast for the Nagura stones I use they help keep my water stones flat for much longer than normal. But then I always make sure the Nagura stones themselves aren't dished/deformed before I use them.

I dunno, I just used a coarse but hard waterstone and rubbed a softer 220 stone against it to create alot of mud, then used that to try and dress my 250 diamond. Seemed to work well enough and got it looking like new. Granted, I didn't sharpen enough with the matrix stone to blacken the whole stone in swarf.

Also thanks for the replies earlier to everyone, I picked up an angle compensator to use with my system and it works great. :)
 
^^^^ An angle cube is the way to go. I found with an Edge Pro Pro with the magnet installed that the blade is held on the table and you can measure the angle exactly how you sharpen it. The magnet kind of is like the third hand you need to hold everything together (at least to measure it).

Also with the magnet installed I can use the small knife attachment at the end of the edge table and it still has enough power to help keep the small blade on the table.
 
How do you use phenolic resin? Just mix the monocrystalline with the powder and press it? I couldn't find much info using phenolic resin
Diemaker said:
Kind of a new development so I am adding a new post to hopefully make it a little more noticeable. I never really intended the 300 Matrix stone to be a brute reprofiling stone, the resin just isn't tough enough to do this. It will remove metal nicely but you just can't push on it like most other stones. The Matrix stones niche is for high quality refined scratch patterns and minimal metal deformation at the apex, not brute metal removal. I have been talking with EP about this and Cody is going to add this info to the description, once we settle on the wording and he has time. In the mean time I want to get this info out there to help everyone in deciding if and what Matrix stones they may be interested in. The pass-around should be leaving loonybin any day now and going to Fixall next so they can start giving their opinions of these stones.

I got to try out a partial set of Venev diamond stones a few weekends ago and I really liked the F150, which is an 80 micron abrasive like the Matrix 300. The Venev removed metal quite a bit faster but left a much bigger burr, which tells me it is deforming the apex more. The Venev needed a lot more pressure to work than the Matrix could stand so it was a really interesting test for me. It has prodded me to work on prototyping some roughing stones using phenolic resin, which is what Venev and I believe Poltava use. I have had a kilo sample bag of appropriate phenolic resin for a few years now, I just needed a kick in the ass to try it out.

When I get a chance I will do a review of the Venev stones like I did of the SG stones.

While giving updates I might as well add that I have started finishing with 2 or 3 passes with a denim strop loaded with diamond and wax, just stuff I have lying around. It just seems to be the next step after the appropriate diamond stone, and makes a noticeable difference to the keeness of the edge. The diamond I use is the same as the last stone I use. The diamond leaves a much finer scratch in denim than the resin bond. I will be getting some leather to try to see how that compares to the denim. Too many passes with the diamond loaded denim will certainly round the apex dulling the edge. My opinon right now is no need to go below 5 micron on the diamond since it doesn't do much, at least from what I can see under the microscope.
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Kevin fitz said:
How do you use phenolic resin? Just mix the monocrystalline with the powder and press it? I couldn't find much info using phenolic resin
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That is pretty much it, using many thousands of pounds per square inch. Then you bake it to liquify and cure the resin. There are lots of caveats though and keeping them flat during all of this is one of the big ones, they like to curl up like potato chips when baking. I never played with phenolic resin much, I just kept trying coarser diamonds until I got what I wanted using the resin I am using.
 
Diemaker said:
That is pretty much it, using many thousands of pounds per square inch. Then you bake it to liquify and cure the resin. There are lots of caveats though and keeping them flat during all of this is one of the big ones, they like to curl up like potato chips when baking. I never played with phenolic resin much, I just kept trying coarser diamonds until I got what I wanted using the resin I am using.
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Yea thats out of the question for me then, are you just using some sort of casting epoxy or resin? If so how well does it hold up ?
 
Sorry, but figuring out which resins might work is only a fraction of the fun of figuring this out, and I wouldn't want to take away any of the fun.
 
So I needed to reprofile/back bevel a plane blade and remove alot of material but still only had the 250 as my coarsest stone.. Took me a couple of hours as the blade was in rough shape, what can you do.. Worked wonderfully though. I'll have the 80 grit and an angle cube soon.

I noticed my stone is just starting to dish a bit in the center already. Yikes! I guess that's what happens when you use it solely for reprofiling. Better order the EP flattening kit while I'm at it.

Also D Diemaker is this 300 stone being sold at Oldawan a unique grit or just an older version of the 250 stone? I'm curious:

Edge Pro 300 Grit Diamond Matrix Stone - Oldawan Tools for Living
 
Yeah, the 250 will leave you wanting more if you have much metal to remove. If it's all you have then light pressure, keep it wet, don't let the swarf build up, and make your strokes as fast as possible. When you dress it make sure to use the 60 grit abrasive, the 240 is too fine and the stone won't work as well as it should.

There were only two 300 grit stones ever made, they were the initial samples I made for EP and myself and were not the fully machined backs so easy to keep separate. The first batch of production 300s I made I screwed up and ordered the wrong diamond, I got 250 grit instead and didn't catch it until I was ordering diamond for the next batch. The good news is that EP decided they liked the 250 better than the 300 after more use and the next batch should be 250 instead. Maybe the mistake was subconscious on my part as I always wanted to go with the 250 and not the 300 anyway. The difference between the two is minuscule but if you have both stones on your bench then you more often than not would choose the 250, it just depended on the steel.
 
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