What if it was microtech lover, brous lover, Strider lover (maybe not designs but valor) Brad Duncan lover, will moon lover, Dalton combat lover, Darrell Ralph lover or any other number of names that didn't fit most peoples idea of the perfect person. Hell the name could be CKF lover as they are made by kevin John if guilt by association is that big of a deal to some of you. And I cant see anything wrong with the knife that was sold. Its funny when people are the most honest about liking a company like Ganzo they are often labeled as the least honest. While the guy who actually owns them, doesn't talk about them you view as honest because its out of site and out of mind. Shouldn't the person who is the most up front be the most trustworthy? Also it should be noted that since the knife was returned and a full refund was given technically that negative feedback should NEVER have been left as the deal was dissolved and made right.
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Bad Ganzofan
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I for one appreciate you taking the time to post this here, mb.
If there's a possible clone/counterfeit knife floating around on this forum, I for one would like to be informed of this. It would be a disservice, for you not to speak out.
As for the feedback you left. You've been around this forum a long time, and most of us who spend a considerable amount of time in the actual knife related area's of this forum, already know you to be a stand up, very low key guy.
Your actions (negative feedback) are not worthy of any type of ban IMO, however, had this been me, I most likely would've consulted with one of the Mod's, for some direction. Just as in the case of this potential counterfeit Civilian; the ambiguity in the feedback rules; a valid argument could be made on your behalf, in this convoluted transaction.
Thanks again, for the information you posted. Now get outside and enjoy the weekend!
FWIW: It's fine with me, if you don't check back until Monday.Although I feel your analogy is a little extreme, it's still an excellent point, Ganzo!
Being completely honest here, I for one must confess, that I've always viewed you in a somewhat of a negative light; every time I've come across one of your posts...simply because of your user name.
I hope that the two of you are able to reach some type of understanding, dealing with this mess.
Edit (I intended to include this post):
^ Guilty!
If I had to sit down for 10 years and try to come up with a million user names...Names even remotely similar to "ganzo"..."fake" ..."counterfeit" "shady"....would not be among them.
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I think that's how it was for quite a while, but I'm guessing they changed the wording to give the feedback system a little more credibility. There's been lots of cases here in the GB&U where a person deserved negative feedback, but the buyer or seller couldn't leave it because they did eventually get their knife or money back, just took a while or involved lots of drama. Good ole Eric would be a prime example. I'd still tread with caution and only go that route for severely negative encounters.
I think the feedback rule was cleared up above, but hopefully a Mod will clarify.
If being made whole in a deal prevents you from leaving feedback on undisclosed issues, not as advertised, etc, that would be a serious flaw in the system. I would certainly want to know that history before dealing with a seller.
In my mind, the selfish thing to do here would have been to walk away after PayPal refunded me. Then someone else would have the same problem down the road,
and Spyderco's reputation would be in jeopardy when the next sucker receives this piece of junk and thinks Spyderco has horrible quality and fit and finish issues.
I felt it was the right thing to do flagging this here.
Spyderco will be hesitant to rule based on pictures alone, thus my no cost proposal I've stated twice.
I do have a PM from a Spyderco employee who checked both old and new samples in house. He said they all have about 3/16" separation between the grind line and the hole. I would be happy to fwd this to Sal if requested.
If being made whole in a deal prevents you from leaving feedback on undisclosed issues, not as advertised, etc, that would be a serious flaw in the system. I would certainly want to know that history before dealing with a seller.
In my mind, the selfish thing to do here would have been to walk away after PayPal refunded me. Then someone else would have the same problem down the road,
and Spyderco's reputation would be in jeopardy when the next sucker receives this piece of junk and thinks Spyderco has horrible quality and fit and finish issues.
I felt it was the right thing to do flagging this here.
Spyderco will be hesitant to rule based on pictures alone, thus my no cost proposal I've stated twice.
I do have a PM from a Spyderco employee who checked both old and new samples in house. He said they all have about 3/16" separation between the grind line and the hole. I would be happy to fwd this to Sal if requested.
^ You absolutely did the right thing here.
That other GBU thread (KYSteve), is a perfect example, why this community needs to look out for one another. That guy's unethical, incoherent behavior on this forum, is freaking pathetic...
And the fact that I'm just now learning of this guys M.O., after 5 years hanging out on this forum.
You lurked for a year?^ You absolutely did the right thing here.
That other GBU thread (KYSteve), is a perfect example, why this community needs to look out for one another. That guy's unethical, incoherent behavior on this forum, is freaking pathetic...
And the fact that I'm just now learning of this guys M.O., after 5 years hanging out on this forum.
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This is no fricking Amazon that for the most parts once the return shipper confirms that the return package has been dropped off and the Amazon returns dept receives that notification from the shipper, you get an automatic refund back to your CC. That Amazon policy is not their absolute policy but general policy because they are hoping that their lenience will encourage customers to continue shopping with Amazon. That said, if the customer returns a "nothing" package, Amazon has him by the balls because they have the original CC information to re-charge that fraudulent buyer plus tey are a Gazilion $ Co!!!
Even eBay which offers an option to refund the customer before the return package is shipped by the buyer or received by the seller, eBay highly recommends that the seller waits till he/she receives the returned goods and inspects them thoroughly (let's not even get into the potential eBay fraudsters in here).
As others have already opined, no one is expected or it is recommendable by anyone that the buyer receives a refund before he ships the item. Buyers who insist on such unreasonable demand are for most parts one of the two, or both:
A- have no business buying online and ought to confine their purchasing habits to brick & mortar
B- they intend to defraud and scam the system by getting a freebie and/or sending back a brick!
If your going to be called donaldtrump supporter expect some people not to like you. Don't be mad about or confused as to why its happening . I'm tired of reading your advocacy speaches every time someone mentions clone or fakes. Get a life.
on_the_edge
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You won't see this on a legitimate Spyderco in the wild unless it somehow got through QC or someone has seriously messed it up after purchase. My eyes aren't the best anymore, but how can anyone miss something like this?!?!
another issue here with leaving negative feedback besides the fact that the buyer got a refund is that NO ONE has confirmed with certainty that this knife is actually fake. Looking at the youtube comparison videos I cant find any of the tells that say the knife the OP bought was a fake. And without knowing that for sure I think the person who sold it had every right to protect his end and want to do things by the book.
Do any of you know just how many people falsely accuse another person for selling fakes? It happens all the time and people simply don't do their research. Just like when ZT switched to S35VN on many of its knives and people before even doing so much as a google search were stating with 100% certainty these new knives had to be fake.
In this situation we haven't determined it yet. And even if it was a fake we would need some type of evidence it was known about beforehand. Now since we don't know if it was a fake what did the seller actually do wrong? Nothing that I can see. If I sold a knife that I was reasonably sure was legit and someone told me it was a fake the process for the return and how it was handled would be exactly the same. If you pay via PP goods and services you don't ask for a separate refund to be sent as if the seller is rebuying the knife. That leaves the seller open to a scam. And if you are going to return for a refund you certainly don't ask for the money up front. Where have any of you done a return where you got your money back without returning it? I cant think of a single place.
And if you have returned the knife and I am the seller and get it back and it has issues that I didn't send it out with what now? I don't have the right to question that? It seems to me 90% of the people participating in this thread saw the sellers user name and rushed to a conclusion. And are sticking to that conclusion based on him actually being honest about what he likes and buys. How would any of you be responding if his name was "angelwings&halos"? Seriously read what the OP asked for and give benefit of the doubt that the knife might not actually be fake and this looks completely different. Some of the worst rip offs in the history of rip offs start with someone everyone here thinks is solid. How many times have you read "man, I would never have guessed X member would do this" yet it happens.
I really think some facts need to come to light before either can be found in the wrong. And people also I feel need to stop fortune telling due to their own bias.
Do any of you know just how many people falsely accuse another person for selling fakes? It happens all the time and people simply don't do their research. Just like when ZT switched to S35VN on many of its knives and people before even doing so much as a google search were stating with 100% certainty these new knives had to be fake.
In this situation we haven't determined it yet. And even if it was a fake we would need some type of evidence it was known about beforehand. Now since we don't know if it was a fake what did the seller actually do wrong? Nothing that I can see. If I sold a knife that I was reasonably sure was legit and someone told me it was a fake the process for the return and how it was handled would be exactly the same. If you pay via PP goods and services you don't ask for a separate refund to be sent as if the seller is rebuying the knife. That leaves the seller open to a scam. And if you are going to return for a refund you certainly don't ask for the money up front. Where have any of you done a return where you got your money back without returning it? I cant think of a single place.
And if you have returned the knife and I am the seller and get it back and it has issues that I didn't send it out with what now? I don't have the right to question that? It seems to me 90% of the people participating in this thread saw the sellers user name and rushed to a conclusion. And are sticking to that conclusion based on him actually being honest about what he likes and buys. How would any of you be responding if his name was "angelwings&halos"? Seriously read what the OP asked for and give benefit of the doubt that the knife might not actually be fake and this looks completely different. Some of the worst rip offs in the history of rip offs start with someone everyone here thinks is solid. How many times have you read "man, I would never have guessed X member would do this" yet it happens.
I really think some facts need to come to light before either can be found in the wrong. And people also I feel need to stop fortune telling due to their own bias.
And expect to not be liked if you bring politics into a thread and sub forum it has no place in. Does that make you a thief? Either way I don't care what you are tired of. Put me on ignore if you don't like the posts I make. As for getting a life, you are the one who has the ability to remove me from your life entirely with one simple click, but you waste your valuable time reading my posts anyways with even more effort than that. Maybe the advice you seek is your own.
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Just one thing to make clear because I have made a couple of comments on this thread:
I have absolutely no professional authority as to whether the knife in question is authentic or not. That determination will be best suited for the well knowledgeable Spyderco products experts. That said, I think that it is a weak defense for the seller to assume total authenticity and originality on the said knife, because he had purportedly purchased it from a law enforcement person!
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You should have seen my Police model from Seki. They aren't as refined as the Taichung nor the golden examples that I have seen. Again quality control isn't a sure sign of a fake. You actually state in your own post why that picture isn't definitive. Its a second hand knife which leave room for other variables just like you mention. Maybe if his forum name was different? Hey, I'm not even sayin the OP is incorrect. I'm just saying its just as irresponsible to make that call without proof.
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Perhaps this thread can be moved to W&C where I can reply to this shrill and hysterical comment in the manner that it deserves?
1. What you say about Ganzo is very narrowly true. Ganzo's knives aren't fakes of other brands- they're copies of other companies' designs (Spyderco, Benchmade, Ontario, Cold Steel, etc.) sold under the Ganzo name. That's bad in and of itself even if it's not the rock bottom of also trying to pass off the copies as the real thing. While Ganzo does have its apologists on this forum, as do other ethically challenged brands, your opinion is in a distinct minority.
2. I did not pass judgment on your guilt or innocence simply based on your name. I merely pointed out that your name identifies you as a fan of a company reknowned for making copies of other companies' designs, which is going to prejudice many people against you given that this Exchange dispute involves a knife that the buyer claims is a counterfeit.
I do, of course, pass judgment on you more generally for being a Ganzo fan, but that's nothing to do with this particular transaction, where it looks like there is blame to go around and that the buyer may well have earned more of it.
3. Comparing judging someone for being a fan of a company making unapproved knockoffs and judging someone based on their wealth or their skin color is literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on this forum (... and feel free to read some of the links in my signature to see some of the competition you have). I'm glad this thread has made me aware of you so I can be sure not to deal with you at any time in the future, regardless of how your deal with the OP went.
on_the_edge
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My point is not whether it is a fake or not. My point is, how is it that this is not noticed and brought to everyone's attention when the knife is going to be sold? People say things in FS threads all the time like, "I used the knife to cut paper, but it is otherwise unused" or "There is a tiny bit of discoloring right behind the doohickey that I can't capture in the pic." If folks are going to mention those things (even though many buyers may never make such an observation upon receipt of the knife), then why not mention what I showed in the pic of the actual knife? A seller of a knife with that defect is either blind, just doesn't care, or is trying to conceal something.
Now there I do agree. If that was my knife I would be able to accept that it was a quality control error. But I also 100% agree with you that it should have been mentioned even if it came from the factory that way. Especially when the seller states it was purchased second hand as he cant vouch for how it left the factory in the first place. And to be fair to you I missed the picture entirely when I made my post. Now I still don't think its definitive of a fake but as you stated that wasn't your intent. That whole "factory fresh" "Minty" "never used" garbage I have seen regurgitated by many who should know better. Especially with knives that have passed hands countless times. So yes, regardless of what the verdict is on the authenticity I would say that picture is at least evidence that the seller need to be more forthcoming. Now I also will say that when spending money on a knife that is $300 retail I'm not going to accept a simple front and back picture anymore. I recently had a situation where I spent much more than that and I should have asked for more pictures.
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I too have been looking for any other Civilians which resemble the one in the OP. The closest I found was this, in a Russian video:
If you watch on auto-translate the narrator concludes the knife with the high grind is a China counterfeit. I am only posting this so we can draw our own conclusions, whatever they might be....
If you watch on auto-translate the narrator concludes the knife with the high grind is a China counterfeit. I am only posting this so we can draw our own conclusions, whatever they might be....
I'll list out my observations since not everyone has looked at all the pictures:
The grind is wrong, as confirmed by Spyderco.
The tang stamp is in the wrong location.
The backlock gap does not appear to be within tolerance, not to mention the finish on the spring and spacer.
The lanyard tube appears to be non-stainless, rough cut and unchamfered.
Other smaller issues: the liner had some rough cut, unfinished edges. The G10 was not right. The action was not right.
The grind is wrong, as confirmed by Spyderco.
The tang stamp is in the wrong location.
The backlock gap does not appear to be within tolerance, not to mention the finish on the spring and spacer.
The lanyard tube appears to be non-stainless, rough cut and unchamfered.
Other smaller issues: the liner had some rough cut, unfinished edges. The G10 was not right. The action was not right.
^ You must referring to me.
As for "clones or fakes," I despise anyone who openly admits to supporting (buying), any knockoff counterfeit knives.
PERIOD!!! I'm not sure whom you're referring to...regardless, anyone who openly advocates for this parasitic counterfeit/clone crap plaguing the knife industry, is plain and simple: full of $#%T!!!
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