Good stuff guys. I have the higest respect For Clint Smith. An old racing buddy of mine Les Baer, Makes the Thunder ranch Special as per Mr. Smiths specs.. That will undoubtly be my next purchace. I think that we may be doing the original poster a disservice. His question, was what in our opinion. Is the best caliber. We all know this is a loaded question, that cannot truly be answered. Any answer, regardless of what it is, will he hotley debated, His question wasn't about shot pacement nor control. I think we may be trying to impress him with our knowlege and abilities. All of your comments are true, But miss the point. There really is no correct answer. Other than learn your weapon system to the point of repedity. As to the foolishness of carrying a hand gun instead of a rifle, or shot gun, if Could get away with carrying one in public, I would. Perhaps a Rem. Pump, or M16, in an ankle holster. Although I would look like Gun Smokes Chester, walking around, Hard not to Imprint. This should be moved to 1911forums.com. There are many many pages on this subject. This is after all Knife Forums. M. Lovett
Handgun calibers...
- Thread starter namaarie
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One observation made by Maasad Ayoob that seemed consistent with my experience with parole and corrections, is that there are a lot of people walking around the prisons with scars infliced by handgun fire. Some have even been shot on multiple occasions.
However Ayoob noted, that there weren't many who'd sustained torso wounds from 7.62x39 or 30-30 soft points, or a 20 ga, loaded with slugs or buckshot, and survived to end up in prison. Even fewer survive after being solidly hit with 308 softpoints or 12 ga buckshot or slugs.
Worth considering, I think.
Edit: I can't say that long gun's poor survival rate equals stopping power - but if they have a devastating non-survivable wound it would seem logical their incapacitation would occur more rapidly. Plus you can double the stopping power by pulling the trigger again fairly fast with the 20/30-30/7.62x39. And you should until they are down, and not moving. ( Unless they fell on top of their gun and you can't see it - Then you challenge and if they play possum, shoot again. )
However Ayoob noted, that there weren't many who'd sustained torso wounds from 7.62x39 or 30-30 soft points, or a 20 ga, loaded with slugs or buckshot, and survived to end up in prison. Even fewer survive after being solidly hit with 308 softpoints or 12 ga buckshot or slugs.
Worth considering, I think.
Edit: I can't say that long gun's poor survival rate equals stopping power - but if they have a devastating non-survivable wound it would seem logical their incapacitation would occur more rapidly. Plus you can double the stopping power by pulling the trigger again fairly fast with the 20/30-30/7.62x39. And you should until they are down, and not moving. ( Unless they fell on top of their gun and you can't see it - Then you challenge and if they play possum, shoot again. )
One thing which was already mentioned here - what counts first is where the bullet hits, then you care about ammo..
Which means, that you need to practice a lot.
Which means, that you need to shoot a lot.
And that means you need a lot of ammo.
See my point? You can have a 9 Luger (I presume that by 9 mm you don't mean 9 Browning) ammo very cheap. Oh well .45 ACP guys will say that you can reload... me, I'm too lazy to pick up every piece of brass after shooting, and I have not the time nor patience to reload for price.
So yes, there can possibly be some small difference in impact between 9 Luger and .45 ACP, but unless you are rich and don't care if you spare more money, go for 9 Luger.
And for those who would ask "why not .22LR which is cheapest"
Well guys 9 Luger and .45ACP are not THAT removed as .22LR and 9 Luger.
Which means, that you need to practice a lot.
Which means, that you need to shoot a lot.
And that means you need a lot of ammo.
See my point? You can have a 9 Luger (I presume that by 9 mm you don't mean 9 Browning) ammo very cheap. Oh well .45 ACP guys will say that you can reload... me, I'm too lazy to pick up every piece of brass after shooting, and I have not the time nor patience to reload for price.
So yes, there can possibly be some small difference in impact between 9 Luger and .45 ACP, but unless you are rich and don't care if you spare more money, go for 9 Luger.
And for those who would ask "why not .22LR which is cheapest"
Well guys 9 Luger and .45ACP are not THAT removed as .22LR and 9 Luger.A lot of effectiveness depends on the caliber and the launcher. I have yet to find a 45 pistol that I can shoot as well as those available in 9mm, but perhaps I should try the 40SW.
I have never been able to shoot 45s, either in Colts or Glocks nearly as well as a 9mm or 9+p.
I shoot a 357 as well or better, and it seems an optimal caliber. I can shoot a 45 as well as a 357 in a revolver, but it hasn't appeared in one as small as a medium frame 357. If it did, then ....
I have never been able to shoot 45s, either in Colts or Glocks nearly as well as a 9mm or 9+p.
I shoot a 357 as well or better, and it seems an optimal caliber. I can shoot a 45 as well as a 357 in a revolver, but it hasn't appeared in one as small as a medium frame 357. If it did, then ....
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Rusty said:
There is some writer out there who makes a statement of the purpose of handguns.
"To get back to your long gun that you stupidly left in teh truck" or some such talk.
A hand gun is good, because it can be readily available. Serious business long guns are good because of the killing power.
There is a philosophy that the Nine and other 'smaller' calibres are inadequate. Cooper helps this along. Past bad experiences with older styles of ammunition help this along.
I prefer large diameter, heavy projectiles, either moving modestly or briskly.
But modern Nine millimeter loadings are very good.
I would even be willing to bet on Rusty and that darn multi capacity 380 of his. Or someone with a .22 they liked to shoot.
As powerful as some of my handguns are, I don't count on a one shot 'stop'.
Do you guys know there are cases where the 44 mag hollow point bullet filled with clothing on the way in, zipped through, and left us an assailent still ready to go?
The tension in a thread like this is all about the 'right answer'.
As arty and many others noted, that answer is different from person to person. Spectre is proficient with a number of different arms, calibres, and techniques.
It really is about your brain more than most other issues.
I wish there were a way to guarentee bad things won't happen to good people.
munk
I prefer large diameter, heavy projectiles, either moving modestly or briskly.
But modern Nine millimeter loadings are very good.
I would even be willing to bet on Rusty and that darn multi capacity 380 of his. Or someone with a .22 they liked to shoot.
As powerful as some of my handguns are, I don't count on a one shot 'stop'.
Do you guys know there are cases where the 44 mag hollow point bullet filled with clothing on the way in, zipped through, and left us an assailent still ready to go?
The tension in a thread like this is all about the 'right answer'.
As arty and many others noted, that answer is different from person to person. Spectre is proficient with a number of different arms, calibres, and techniques.
It really is about your brain more than most other issues.
I wish there were a way to guarentee bad things won't happen to good people.
munk
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Muzzle energy, sectional density, velocity, caliber.... these are all important statistics,
HOWEVER
The best "stopper" comes from the load/weapon combination that allows you, as an individual, to reliably deliver it with the most precision under the widest variety of circumstances.
HOWEVER
The best "stopper" comes from the load/weapon combination that allows you, as an individual, to reliably deliver it with the most precision under the widest variety of circumstances.
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To me, 10mm is a great round. I buy DoubleTapAmmo, and their 10mm is da bomb.
Why 10mm?
Because it has the power of a high end .357 or even a .41 magnum.
Because it has high velocity and decent diameter and bullet weight.
You can buy a very light, ultra-fast round from DoubleTap that is based on the latest bullet technology and it will have a good level of penetration with explosive expansion for efficient transmission of kinetic energy into a body mass when needed. People hunt with these and report great results. And you can shoot a only-slightly-downloaded target version, FMJ, less expensive. I like to practice with my defense round, so this is a good option for me.
I shoot 10 in my Glock 20. It can beat up a gun pretty good, and I have had to do some experimentation with upgraded recoil springs.
I have thought about getting a G29, but it is too large for EDC at least for me. So I stick to my G27 with good hot modern bullets.
Why 10mm?
Because it has the power of a high end .357 or even a .41 magnum.
Because it has high velocity and decent diameter and bullet weight.
You can buy a very light, ultra-fast round from DoubleTap that is based on the latest bullet technology and it will have a good level of penetration with explosive expansion for efficient transmission of kinetic energy into a body mass when needed. People hunt with these and report great results. And you can shoot a only-slightly-downloaded target version, FMJ, less expensive. I like to practice with my defense round, so this is a good option for me.
I shoot 10 in my Glock 20. It can beat up a gun pretty good, and I have had to do some experimentation with upgraded recoil springs.
I have thought about getting a G29, but it is too large for EDC at least for me. So I stick to my G27 with good hot modern bullets.
There is no 10 mm made that has the power of the 41 mag unless you compare a low end 41 practise load with a high end 10 mm load. It is simply not in the cards if you examine pressures and case capacity.
I don't know why this keeps getting repeated. I own and love both. The most accurate comparison is the 10 with the 357. This is a very interesting comparison. There are handloads for the 357 which are very powerful. I used to say the 10 was the only reasonable way to get 357 power out of a semi auto of any practical size to carry around.
I recently saw a 357 load from a reputable manufacturer, a 158 gr hp clocked at only 1250 fps. The 10 is better than this, but whether it actually does exceed top-end 357 handloads is a question. There are a lot of great 357 handloads around. Every time I'm ready to conced the 10 as more powerful there is a 357 load that is impressive. Darn close. One has better sectional density and the other a fatter face and a tad more weight. Both good.
munk
I don't know why this keeps getting repeated. I own and love both. The most accurate comparison is the 10 with the 357. This is a very interesting comparison. There are handloads for the 357 which are very powerful. I used to say the 10 was the only reasonable way to get 357 power out of a semi auto of any practical size to carry around.
I recently saw a 357 load from a reputable manufacturer, a 158 gr hp clocked at only 1250 fps. The 10 is better than this, but whether it actually does exceed top-end 357 handloads is a question. There are a lot of great 357 handloads around. Every time I'm ready to conced the 10 as more powerful there is a 357 load that is impressive. Darn close. One has better sectional density and the other a fatter face and a tad more weight. Both good.
munk
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- 2,946
I think there have been a number of great points made in this thread.
Just wanted to comment to munk-
I wasn't sure if you'd seen this yet, so thought I'd mention it. Published loading data for the 10mm is now out with a fairly new powder, safely pushing a 135 grain bullet over 1900 fps. I've never seen the .357 even close to that. (not even hot loads from 40 years ago.) One of these days when I've got some money, (har ahar har...) I plan to get a 10mm to replace my .45 as a varmint pistol, just so I can use this explosive load.
Just wanted to comment to munk-
I wasn't sure if you'd seen this yet, so thought I'd mention it. Published loading data for the 10mm is now out with a fairly new powder, safely pushing a 135 grain bullet over 1900 fps. I've never seen the .357 even close to that. (not even hot loads from 40 years ago.) One of these days when I've got some money, (har ahar har...) I plan to get a 10mm to replace my .45 as a varmint pistol, just so I can use this explosive load.
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Yeah, I'd like to see that. Lessee, 135 @ 1400 fps (Corbon)...no biggee. 135@ 1700, starting to get somewhere...1900? I'd really like to see it. Double-tap seems to be the new whiz kid for hot 10mm loads, and their hottest 135 grain is 1600 fps. Corbon's romp-'em-stomp-'em strongest 10mm load is a 180 @ 1320 fps.
As far as it goes, the .357 used to be much more powerful, and (as munk mentioned) it has been essentially downloaded for quite a while. Another autopistol that can genuinely pull standard .357 power in a controllable format, is the 9x23mm- but it's not in the ball park of what an N-frame .357, or even better, a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk can handle, if loaded to capability.
John
As far as it goes, the .357 used to be much more powerful, and (as munk mentioned) it has been essentially downloaded for quite a while. Another autopistol that can genuinely pull standard .357 power in a controllable format, is the 9x23mm- but it's not in the ball park of what an N-frame .357, or even better, a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk can handle, if loaded to capability.
John
Nosler #3
10mm 170 gr bullet 1200 fps 6" Springfield Armory test barrel
357 mag, 180 gr bullet 1380 fps 8.3" test barrel
Hornady 4th
10mm Colt Delta Elite 5" barrel 180 gr bullet 1200 fps
357 Smith model 27, 8.75" barrel 180 gr bullet 1350 fps
Sierra 3rd
10mm Colt Delta Elite 5" 180 gr bullet 1100 fps
357 Colt Trooper 6" 1050fps
Speer 11
357 Smith 28, 6" barrel 180 gr bullet 1396 fps (heavy load- greater OAL)
200 gr bullet 1212fps Sorry, could not find my newer Speer with data for 10.
Hodgen 26
10mm 5" test barrel 180 gr bullet 1218fps
357 7" test barrel 180 gr bullet 1304 fps
I see no reason to change my mind that the two cartridges are very similar in power levels. If there is a new powder that makes the 10 shoot a 135 gr bullet fast, there will be a new powder for the 357 to do the same with a 110 or 125 gr bullet.
Whenever possible, I attempted to find real firearm comparisons with real velocites. In most cases, the 357 edges out the 10 in heavier weights, but there are a number of factors here, like the variable pressures of the 10, barrel length, close breech vs bc gap, etc etc.
I can't conclude the 10 is more powerful.
munk
10mm 170 gr bullet 1200 fps 6" Springfield Armory test barrel
357 mag, 180 gr bullet 1380 fps 8.3" test barrel
Hornady 4th
10mm Colt Delta Elite 5" barrel 180 gr bullet 1200 fps
357 Smith model 27, 8.75" barrel 180 gr bullet 1350 fps
Sierra 3rd
10mm Colt Delta Elite 5" 180 gr bullet 1100 fps
357 Colt Trooper 6" 1050fps
Speer 11
357 Smith 28, 6" barrel 180 gr bullet 1396 fps (heavy load- greater OAL)
200 gr bullet 1212fps Sorry, could not find my newer Speer with data for 10.
Hodgen 26
10mm 5" test barrel 180 gr bullet 1218fps
357 7" test barrel 180 gr bullet 1304 fps
I see no reason to change my mind that the two cartridges are very similar in power levels. If there is a new powder that makes the 10 shoot a 135 gr bullet fast, there will be a new powder for the 357 to do the same with a 110 or 125 gr bullet.
Whenever possible, I attempted to find real firearm comparisons with real velocites. In most cases, the 357 edges out the 10 in heavier weights, but there are a number of factors here, like the variable pressures of the 10, barrel length, close breech vs bc gap, etc etc.
I can't conclude the 10 is more powerful.
munk
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- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 2,633
alberich said:One thing which was already mentioned here - what counts first is where the bullet hits, then you care about ammo..
Which means, that you need to practice a lot.
Which means, that you need to shoot a lot.
And that means you need a lot of ammo.
See my point? You can have a 9 Luger (I presume that by 9 mm you don't mean 9 Browning) ammo very cheap. Oh well .45 ACP guys will say that you can reload... me, I'm too lazy to pick up every piece of brass after shooting, and I have not the time nor patience to reload for price.
So yes, there can possibly be some small difference in impact between 9 Luger and .45 ACP, but unless you are rich and don't care if you spare more money, go for 9 Luger.
And for those who would ask "why not .22LR which is cheapest"
Welcome to the Cantina, alberich.
namaarie said:
There is a book called, IIRC, Handgun Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow. The book is out of Paladin Press I believe. The book is a very interesting read. The authors look at real instances where torso shots resulted in stops. They go on to give a percent one-shot stop for various handgun loads by cartridge and make. At one time Federal's .357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP was "king", though this may have changed by now.
Handgun stopping power is a subject frought with controversy. The real experts will tell you to get a long arm, like a shotgun or rifle if you know you are going to be in a fight. The wiser experts would probably also tell you to get anything 9mm Luger or more powerful, choose a good self-defense load and practice a lot.
Oh...and don't go where angels fear to tread.
Jeff