Handgun calibers...

I'll sidestep the normal 9vs .45 stuff and let you know what my wife and a female competition pistol shooter buddy thinks. The wife thot the .45 I had was too much. the femme shooter said it was too big for her to hold comfortably. The she-shooter prefers the 9mm, but has shot competition with .22 cal on up.

I used to dis the 9mm round after owning a gun that was 9mm, but then I saw a guy at a friend's house who had stupidly shot himself in the leg. He had some nasty scars from where they had to radially cut his lower leg open to vent the fluid. it was a Jacketed hollow point round, nothing fancy. I don't dis the 9mm no more.

I like the .45 best, but that's what I've gotten used to, so I know how it kicks and causes a bit of rise.

I do like the .357 more than 9mm, and wheelguns are dang reliable...

My advice: go to a range with some folks, and try your hand at shooting the rounds you mention. Concentrate on how the kick and rise feel to you, which one feels more comfy.
 
Whoa, there, guys. I had no intention of starting a big debate over 10mm vs. 357 mag. I wouldn't have even said anything if I knew that's where this thread would go, as I've seen that topic done to death plenty on other boards. I only mentioned it as a point of interest. If the .357 can also attain this same velocity as newer loads are developed, that's just fine by me.

Since it was asked, I was informed of this myself by another gentleman who is an avid experimenter. He was using Hodgdon book data with IMR-800X and Nosler bullets. That load chronoed over 1800 fps, and he still said he had a bunch of other powders to test out. Some time later on another board, in this thread, he mentioned clocking them at 1980 fps, but didn't say which powder he finally settled on. He only said elsewhere that these loads are published max loads. I am not the expert here, but I've been "talking" with the gentleman online for 5 or 6 years now, and believe his word. I'm sure he'd be happy to point you in the right direction if you drop him an email. Since I don't have the gun yet, I haven't really been bookmarking my sources yet.
 
Dear Possum:
I don't know what a 'centimeter calbre gun" is- where this shooter says he has 1900 plus fps with a 135 gr bullet out of the Ten mm. But he also says he has 135 gr bullets out of the Glock 23 at 1500, beating the "357 Maggie" as he calls it.

This is from Gun Digest Handgun Reloading, 1987 by Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp.


GP 100, 4" barrel: 140 gr Speer hp bullet 1462 fps, 1522 fps Speer 140 gr hp, I could go on.

One guy quoting an unknown load from an unknown weapon is not an accepted measure in the industry of a cartridge's effectiveness or power rating.

I'm no defender of the 357, just of the truth. I recently learned on the High Road I was wrong about plus P 38 Special loadings- they are no longer loaded to SAMMI specs and the Nine is more powerful- whoda thunk?

Don't worry about the controversy. We just like to know what is going on. When someone shows up and says, 'my 3000 Metra hip hugger blasts the 357 mag into the iceage," we wonder how.

Possum, I don't recall your name before this- but welcome to the forum.
munk
 
Thanks for the welcome, Munk. I usually post on the general forum or bladesmith cafe, but do far more lurking than posting.

As to the other gentleman,
10mm= 1cm. He has a rather "colorful" personality, and it often shows up in his writings. When he said his load "beats the .357 maggie", I'm quite certain he was not talking literally. I haven't asked him yet, but am sure he has pushed rounds much faster than even that, out of his own guns, as he really loves pushing pistols to their max performance. The general gist of that thread was that the .40 S&W was not as anemic as some suggest, (aka, "the .40 short and weak") so he was merely illustrating that it can easily be loaded into the same class as commonly loaded .357 mag ammo. So, I suppose I'll just have to track down a credible published source, and report back to you guys, so we all have the facts.

take care.
-the possum
 
Possum, I don't have the SAMMI specs on my lap, but I'm guessing the 357 has more case capacity, and that in the larger weighted rounds, it is going to tie or best the 10. If your friend is loading the snot out of things, he could load the snot out of the 'maggie' and beat the Ten.

The laws of physics are not suspended because the shooting takes place in Alaska.

I know lots of colorful guys too. I love them, but I stopped quoting their ballistics- just their bullistic stories.


munk
 
Actually my preferred weapon in a gunfight would be a very fast car headed in the opposite direction. However, I don’t want to be the guy with a knife at a gunfight, so either my 45 or 9mm will do fine until I can get to my AR.

My 9mm is a short barreled CZ PCR and when its stoked with +P 124 gr. ammo it recoils as much or more than my Series 70 1911 45. Recoil is dependent on the weapon and the load as much as the caliber. I’ve shot the 45 longer and tend to shoot better with it but have no doubt the 9mm would be an adequate defensive weapon.

If I was going to decide between the two (45 & 9mm) I’d want to shoot both before I bought either, and shoot them in the exact gun I was buying.
 
We may be splitting hairs here between .45 ACP and 9x19mm. Both are effective. (Especially so when something other than ball ammo is used.) Both have seen plenty of use. Both are preferable to throwing rocks. Neither is worth a damn if the shooter is not proficient.

A firearm is a tool like any other one. Pick a quality one that you can afford, chambered in something that you can find easily. Get good with it. When the guys at the range say that your weapon/caliber/brand of ammunition isn't up to snuff, show them your target and the topic of conversation will change.

Just about every "defensive" caliber out there will work with proper ammunition. Don't get too hung up on the specifics.
 
Yep.

Jeff, I don't like quoting myself, but don't want to type it over:

"The methodology used by M&S is suspect, in that it only used single shots to the torso to judge round effectiveness. Where I'm from, we shoot aggressors twice on reflex- more if they're damn yankees. (The point I'm making is that well-trained modern shooters tend to fire twice if they are only engaging a single target. "Torso hit" covers a lot of area, too...What I'm saying is that the whole "one shot stop" premise is flawed from inception.)"

John
 
So, whatcha gun folks think of that new FN Five-seveN that we civilians will never get 2 own? It's pretty much designed to go thru armor.
 
For me it's always been about platform more than caliber.

-Here's a thought and question:

If you had to run into a store, excluding longarms, what handgun would you take? If you had to just pull it outta the box, load it and start shooting to save your life, which would it be? Reliability is first, then everthing else.

-WW
 
Willy, I'd take the .45 or .357.

Nam, here is another interesting topic that covers the ballistics of every handgun round we've mentioned here, plus some rifle and shotgun loads not yet mentioned.


Anatomy of a Bullet wound
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/Frog.html

The author (Dr. Martin Fackler) says near the end:
"As for me, even though there are no guarantees, I want to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible. I want to reliably cause the most damage possible with every shot. Since bullet expansion can't always be counted on due to intervening material and Hornady or Winchester don't offer tactical nuclear bullets, I don't like to count on a small bullet hopefully expanding to a bigger diameter. I like to stay with big at the start. Should I ever be lucky to go after dangerous big game I'll use all the gun I can handle. For personal defense I carry a .45 with 200-230 grain expanding bullets of proven design and penetration, but wouldn't feel too under gunned with a stout .40/10mm."

He also says this, which kinda backs what Spectre is getting at:
"Aways, keep this medical fact in mind: Bullet hits to the torso cannot be counted upon to cause a person (or for that matter a game animal) to immediately cease his actions. Even a total loss of blood flow to the brain can still allow 10 seconds of purposeful action --more than enough time to empty a magazine into you or to stomp you to death."
 
If you had to run into a store, excluding longarms, what handgun would you take? If you had to just pull it outta the box, load it and start shooting to save your life, which would it be? Reliability is first, then everthing else.

-WW>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Holy moly; I thought that was what the thoughtful selection of calibre and arms was about: so you didn't have to do that!!


munk
 
Sounds good, Bruise. Can you throw at like 2750 feet per sec? If so, NEVER buy a gun!

Oh, and if yer accurate, mebbe try out for some baseball...jsut don't hity the batter, and have the catcher's mitt be padded with a few cow's worth of leather ;)
 
Munk (and everyone else),

I guess my idea here is that lots of folks tend to recommend firearms to newbies that are not necessarily the best recommendation when all other factors are unknown or equal, such as recommending the 1911.

I have 2 1911s: a Kimber and a minty Rem-Rand from my grandfather. Unless they are made exactly to spec and handfitted, such as the Rem-rand, the 1911 tends to suffer more from modern/fast inhuman manufacturing because of all the needed handfitting and complexity of the piece and lots of metallurgical considerations such as the proper spring present in the extractor metal, etc. They require a human's touch. This is why many folks are willing to pay 900-1400 for something that works in 1911s but you can't call a specialty piece 'outta-da-box.'

Here's the other thought: 1911s are like racket-pinion steering, or a martial artist's gun. They require more training for the very things that make it so shooter friendly like the trigger. They aren't as forgiving, in many ways.

I tend to give the advice to newbies to get a revolver or some auto that has no safety and teach them to keep their finger off the trigger till ready. Definitely the first recommendation is the revolver though, because of ease of use and no ammo sensitivity. Threat? Pull out gun, point, pull trigger. And for revolvers, even simpler: a click and no bang? Pull the trigger again. Simple.

Last, but not least, I think I have 4 categories for guns: Fighting guns, combat guns, hunting guns, and everythings guns:

*Fighters- finely balanced, highly tunable, precision instruments, but the trade-off is care and maintanance, spring wear considerations etc. IE Modern 1911s, Browning HP

*Combat- A gun, outta-da-box, that'll go bang everytime. Simple/simpler manual-of-arms. Highly resistant to stupidity, lack of maintance, but still able to deliver such things as grazing fire etc. IE. Glock, Sig, or possibly, a military spec 1911 running off hardball.

*Hunting- Precision accuracy, fine trigger, and power in that order. IE Freedom Arms Single action revolver.

*Everything gun. When you don't know what the situation is whether it's to drop a deer, a squirrel, fight off a bear, pistol whip someone etc., this gun will be ADEQUATE in most jobs. IE any 4"-6" .357mag revolver or similar.

-Sorry for the long post; one of my favorite topics! :p

-Willy
 
Nice post, Willy.

I'd offer for consideration though the US Army issued the 1911 to many people with very little training. It worked fine. An out of the box Springfield or Kimber should not require any expert tuning for simple function.

I prefer revolvers, but with small children, semi auto is the way to go for me.


munk
 
I tend to divide pistols up into about 4 categories, too.

1) Duty pistols. Full-sized pistols suitable for daily carry as a cop, or concealed carry as a regular citizen. Big enough to shoot well, but small enough to conceal under appropriate garb. Should fire a "duty" caliber- typical listed as minimum of 9x19mm or .38 Special- that is reasonably powerful, but not so strong as to prevent a rapid follow-up shot.

2) Toy/special purpose pistols. This is the hunting/target category. Usually either firing a round at the top end of the "duty" rounds, or even more powerful. Usually much larger than a duty pistol, and includes stockless rifles such as the XP-100, revolvers with very long barrels, and outsized autoloaders like the Desert Eagle, to name a few.

3) Compacts. Typically cut-down versions of the duty handguns, for ease of concealment. Smaller size equates to some loss of controllability.

4) Pocket pistols. Traditionally, a class of small to very small handguns, firing weaker handgun cartridges. The last few years have seen some pocket pistols firing more powerful (duty) cartridges. Some people add one more category, the vest-pocket pistol, which is composed of a very few, very tiny pistols firing the lightest cartridges.

John
 
This has been a great thread, thanks all.
Reading it has gotten me to dig out my P35 (actully a Hungarian PJK-9HP, an identical clone as far as I can tell)
Question: It is presently stock, NIB, with the milled front sight, ring hammer, and walnut checkered grips like the original Belgian ones. What modifications would you recommend for turning it into a first-rate defensive pistol, besides a trigger-job? Any suggestions will be appreciated, as usual ;)
 
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