I Spy
- Thread starter Gollnick
- Start date
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- 8,917
Even if the BaliSongs that grace the first post in this thread were released in 3 months, and that is almost never the case. Release dates are usually wrong.
Even so, that is $50.00 a month if they are in fact $150.00 to begin with, if you cannot get them cheaper.
I see all of these people, they want great things, they speak of great things, they don't want to shell out the bucks for great things to be designed.
Somewhere, even though the basic BaliSong design is very old, somewhere, someone designed the Balis in this thread, had them drawn up on a computer program.
I don't care if it took a day or not. Someone has to get paid to do that, the guy that is paying him wants to make a profit as he is not in the business of giving you something.
He has to pay rent. He has to pay his personal taxes, he has to pay his business taxes. He has to pay for electric. You take what you fork out yearly in rent/mortgage, gas and electric, taxes, whatever, and you add a few zeros on the end.
The guy that designed them has to be paid, he has to have unemployment insurance paid in by his Employer, he has to have Workman's Compensation Insurance paid in by his Employer, he probably has some degree of health insurance and the Employer is paying some of that as well.
And you know what? That's just an overview, it is much worse than that.
So you see, people have to get paid. People want to make money, again, what is the use in being in business if every whiner posing as a Customer can't save $50.00 a month, ostensibly, for three months to buy the $150.00 knife you are producing?
Often times, we conveniently forget that the taxes and regulations stifle development and lower prices.
You want to see where else it works?
The next time you hear some wackjob that knows nothing about the real world, or some liberal Politician that loves to exploit that segment of this society who cannot see the forest for the trees, talking about a minimum wage increase, please know this;
Let's break it down so a child can understand it.
If "Johnny" works at Burger King and "Johnny" listens to "Democrat X," and hears all of these things about a minimum wage increase, or that real chestnut of the whiners, "a living wage," he is happy! "Hey man! I'm getting another .50 cents per hour! YAY!"
What he does not realize is, he might despise Burger King food, he might not eat there, so he does not care that prices have to go up at Burger King. "I'll eat somewhere else."
Okay, McDonald's was just forced to do the same thing, Taco Bell, Wendy's, whatever...
So our beloved Johnny says, "I don't care man, I eat don't eat fast food! Hahhahahaha!"
Guess what Chum? Somewhere in that grocery store, somewhere, someone is getting that wage increase, or a Union Member is going to bitch because he feels that because the minimum wage increase was raised, that he is now entitled to another wage increase, lest others catch up to his Princely Salary in the warehouse...
So, "Johnny," he is going to pay more ANYWAY. But Johnny is too damned stupid to realize it. Apparently they do not teach basic economics in school anymore.
"Johnny" is going to pay more for his clothing, for his gasoline, you name it, he might not see it so fast, but he is going to pay.
So, where did his raise go? You know, the one that was supposed to "lift him up?" It went nowhere. The raise does not exist, the raise is symbolic to get something called "votes."
Someone designed those knives, regardless of age of design, someone cut them, someone ground them, someone assembled them, someone finishes them, someone markets them, someone packages them. Someone acts as a liason to Dealers, and...someone listens to people who call up and complain because they dropped their knife on the concrete.
I'm amazed that things do not cost MORE in this country when you look at the miles of red tape, taxes, regulations, nonsense and buckets of bullsh*t people have to go through just to provide us with something we like.
Those are the breaks my friend, save your money. I would imagine that in six months or less, most people of a very modest income waste $150.00
So, how much do you want the knife?
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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
- Messages
- 216
A long time ago,I had decided that when I could afford some of the higher priced balisongs,I would get them.That day has unfortunately never happened for me.So,I stick with the lower cost balisongs,and dream of the day when I might be able to add some higher priced ones to my collection.
I myself don't really care whether a balisong is expensive or cheap,or even whether they are quality made or not.I love them no matter what they are,although there are some I just didn't care for at all (including some of the higher priced ones that to me looked like crap).But,I can see the need for both cheaper & more expensive blades as well as a difference in quality.
With me,there is a simple logic to owning balisongs of both types.The higher priced ones are beautiful to look at and use...but they are such an investment that even if I could carry them legally,I wouldn't..unless it was for a special occasion.
Cheaper balisongs on the other hand,I would carry everywhere.Why? Because if one gets stolen,I'm not out a lot of money.Cheap balisongs can be used for things that would probably damage a higher priced knife,whereas the cheaper knife can be replaced a lot easier.If some LEO decides to be an ass in an area where the knife can be legally carried,I'm not out much if he takes the balisong away (I have seen this happen and the owner never got the knife back because the cop has denied everything..same has happened with a few swords).Plus,if I want to spend a lot of time playing around with a balisong practicing old moves and attempting to create new ones,I'm going to make sure it's a cheapie since it is easier to replace if it falls apart.Can you see an underlying thread here?
A major difference in thinking is the fact that a lot of people would buy a higher priced knife ($150 or more) and use it constantly,while some others would treat it as a work of art to be touched only rarely.I can see the former happening often if the person actually has the finances to buy a new knife every time one falls apart on him/her.The latter I see happening with those of us who would love to own a "custom" or extremely well made balisong but think it prudent to keep the knife in great shape because we can't go out on a whim and buy new knives that cost a good bit.
I have to say this too...even if a person attempts to save up the money to buy a higher priced knife,there are things that do happen that would make that money become necessary for *other* things.This has happened to me on many occasions over the years.
And please,let's keep the political type discussion out of this.All sides are right in some ways,and all sides are wrong in some ways...it's not a clear case of one side is always wrong and another always right.It can never be so and has never been so.Deal with it.
Yes,many of us realize that the knife manufacturer's employees need to get paid..so do we all (unless we've inherited enough money to not have to worry about it).But what some of us are doing here is suggesting simply that we would love to see more competition as far as balisongs go,and we do respect the *background* stuff from the employer's point of view,but a lot of us really can't afford knives that are $100 or more...if we could,you wouldn't hear the suggestions.
Also,competition does not *always* make the more competent manufacturers see that they should make the attempts to give the buying public a more affordable item (such as when PC decided to start making lower cost knives back in the 80's).In some cases competition has worked in the opposite way.
As to PC and it's custom knives around 15 years ago...much of their production knives back then were around $250.Customs usually were above that figure,since most customs were made with the higher quality materials like damascus blades and titanium handles.
Back then,according to the Advanced Balisong Manual,titanium handles would run you $1,000.00.Damascus steel blade would run $300.Inserts would run from $20.00 to $100.00.Blade styles could cost from $20.00 to $125.00.Even though they do list that all prices were subject to change,it looks like even if they did,a custom would normally cost you above $250.
So,as usual,we are left with our own financial situations,and that is the way it will always be.As for me,I would love to see more medium and lower price range knives being offered...no matter by whom.But I can still dream of having a knife that is higher priced than what I can normally afford.
And just think,I said all this with a clear head..I don't care for ranting & raving..those get the blood pumping too much to be good for you.
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*The* Lunatic Puppy
It wasn't me...It was my *good* twin..
My "inner puppy" made me do it..
I myself don't really care whether a balisong is expensive or cheap,or even whether they are quality made or not.I love them no matter what they are,although there are some I just didn't care for at all (including some of the higher priced ones that to me looked like crap).But,I can see the need for both cheaper & more expensive blades as well as a difference in quality.
With me,there is a simple logic to owning balisongs of both types.The higher priced ones are beautiful to look at and use...but they are such an investment that even if I could carry them legally,I wouldn't..unless it was for a special occasion.
Cheaper balisongs on the other hand,I would carry everywhere.Why? Because if one gets stolen,I'm not out a lot of money.Cheap balisongs can be used for things that would probably damage a higher priced knife,whereas the cheaper knife can be replaced a lot easier.If some LEO decides to be an ass in an area where the knife can be legally carried,I'm not out much if he takes the balisong away (I have seen this happen and the owner never got the knife back because the cop has denied everything..same has happened with a few swords).Plus,if I want to spend a lot of time playing around with a balisong practicing old moves and attempting to create new ones,I'm going to make sure it's a cheapie since it is easier to replace if it falls apart.Can you see an underlying thread here?
A major difference in thinking is the fact that a lot of people would buy a higher priced knife ($150 or more) and use it constantly,while some others would treat it as a work of art to be touched only rarely.I can see the former happening often if the person actually has the finances to buy a new knife every time one falls apart on him/her.The latter I see happening with those of us who would love to own a "custom" or extremely well made balisong but think it prudent to keep the knife in great shape because we can't go out on a whim and buy new knives that cost a good bit.
I have to say this too...even if a person attempts to save up the money to buy a higher priced knife,there are things that do happen that would make that money become necessary for *other* things.This has happened to me on many occasions over the years.
And please,let's keep the political type discussion out of this.All sides are right in some ways,and all sides are wrong in some ways...it's not a clear case of one side is always wrong and another always right.It can never be so and has never been so.Deal with it.
Yes,many of us realize that the knife manufacturer's employees need to get paid..so do we all (unless we've inherited enough money to not have to worry about it).But what some of us are doing here is suggesting simply that we would love to see more competition as far as balisongs go,and we do respect the *background* stuff from the employer's point of view,but a lot of us really can't afford knives that are $100 or more...if we could,you wouldn't hear the suggestions.
Also,competition does not *always* make the more competent manufacturers see that they should make the attempts to give the buying public a more affordable item (such as when PC decided to start making lower cost knives back in the 80's).In some cases competition has worked in the opposite way.
As to PC and it's custom knives around 15 years ago...much of their production knives back then were around $250.Customs usually were above that figure,since most customs were made with the higher quality materials like damascus blades and titanium handles.
Back then,according to the Advanced Balisong Manual,titanium handles would run you $1,000.00.Damascus steel blade would run $300.Inserts would run from $20.00 to $100.00.Blade styles could cost from $20.00 to $125.00.Even though they do list that all prices were subject to change,it looks like even if they did,a custom would normally cost you above $250.
So,as usual,we are left with our own financial situations,and that is the way it will always be.As for me,I would love to see more medium and lower price range knives being offered...no matter by whom.But I can still dream of having a knife that is higher priced than what I can normally afford.
And just think,I said all this with a clear head..I don't care for ranting & raving..those get the blood pumping too much to be good for you.
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*The* Lunatic Puppy
It wasn't me...It was my *good* twin..
My "inner puppy" made me do it..
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2000
- Messages
- 626
Hear, hear, Don!
Speaking as someone with a very modest income (we're talking near "poverty line"), finding the extra couple of bucks to spend on, well, anything, isn't that difficult. For a personal example, one less fast food meal a week, and smoking just five cigarettes fewer per day (I really should quit anyway) saves me $20. Those are things I wouldn't and don't miss, and that's $20 a week. $80 per month, without even trying. That's the equivalent of a new 42 every 7 weeks (including shipping!) with a couple of bucks left to take my girl out to the movies. Too expensive my azimuth, if you really love something (knives or girls!) finding the coin isn't that difficult.
Minor apologies to those without an income, but then again, business isn't geared towards the income-free. Go to the library and borrow Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." (See? You've just saved $8 by borrowing rather than buying!)
Bring on more of the good stuff - I'm ready!
Flying over your house ....
Ranting Frugal Jon
edit: MacCanine, I agree with all of your points, believe it or not. Outside emergencies, I wouldn't/don't use an expensive whatever if there's a substantial risk of confiscation or damage. Bear in mind also, however, that a job which may damage an inexpensive tool may not damage a more expensive one.
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'Scuse me while I flip this out ...
[This message has been edited by willOthewisp (edited 04-23-2001).]
Speaking as someone with a very modest income (we're talking near "poverty line"), finding the extra couple of bucks to spend on, well, anything, isn't that difficult. For a personal example, one less fast food meal a week, and smoking just five cigarettes fewer per day (I really should quit anyway) saves me $20. Those are things I wouldn't and don't miss, and that's $20 a week. $80 per month, without even trying. That's the equivalent of a new 42 every 7 weeks (including shipping!) with a couple of bucks left to take my girl out to the movies. Too expensive my azimuth, if you really love something (knives or girls!) finding the coin isn't that difficult.
Minor apologies to those without an income, but then again, business isn't geared towards the income-free. Go to the library and borrow Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." (See? You've just saved $8 by borrowing rather than buying!)
Bring on more of the good stuff - I'm ready!
Flying over your house ....
Ranting Frugal Jon
edit: MacCanine, I agree with all of your points, believe it or not. Outside emergencies, I wouldn't/don't use an expensive whatever if there's a substantial risk of confiscation or damage. Bear in mind also, however, that a job which may damage an inexpensive tool may not damage a more expensive one.
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'Scuse me while I flip this out ...
[This message has been edited by willOthewisp (edited 04-23-2001).]
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2001
- Messages
- 4,608
I am not taking sides here .. (Don, Stu
)
I can't afford 100 something balis either and will be happy to see a 440 blade with SS/brass handle at 50-70 that will last almost a life time ..
Bottom line is: welcome competition to bring up quality and bring down price ...
[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 04-24-2001).]
I can't afford 100 something balis either and will be happy to see a 440 blade with SS/brass handle at 50-70 that will last almost a life time ..
Bottom line is: welcome competition to bring up quality and bring down price ...
[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 04-24-2001).]
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
I just came from the largest knife show in the world this year, folks, and I can tell you that $150 for a quality knife that will last and will withstand reasonable abuse is a bargain.
The BM42 streets for about $125. It's a great knife for a great price. IMHO, with Ti handles and a great lock, it's one of the best bargains in a folding knife today. Notice that I did not say "best bargain in a balisong", I did say "best bargain in a folding knife" period. I will put the BM42 up against any comperably priced production folder out there.
This new production one that I was privileged to preview at the show is a great knife too and for the approximately $150 price (and please keep in mind that $150 is just a preliminary price at this point), it will also be an excellent folding knife bargain. It's different from the 42. It has those heavier, thicker handles that many people prefer. Where one company leaves an opening, as BM did when they went totally to Ti, another often steps in.
The latch on these prototypes is shown in the Manila configuration. But, there are holes for latch pins on the other side and the latch can be easily moved.
However, these prototypes have polished down pins like the old BMs did. No interchangable blades here folks. Personally, I'm skeptical about interchangable blades. I agree that if anyone can do it, MT can. But, others have tried. BM throughly intended to have that feature. Darrel Ralph throughly intended to have that feature. Both of them ultimately decided that it compromised the strength and durability of the joint to much.
Personally, I don't see why you want it anyway. What? Do you wake up the morning and say, "Gee, I feel like a tanto today?" Come on.
Anyway, I'm excited about MT's upcoming new offering. I'm excited about these prototypes I got to handle (and yes, they let me go to it on 'em, indeed they insisted). I'm excite about BM considering additions to their line. I'm excited about Gemini and a great maker such as Darrel Ralph adding balisongs to his line, I'm excited to have talked to another production maker seriously about it and also another custom maker chomping at the bit. Two years ago, there were none.
Oh, and I wish I could share a few more gems with you, but I'm sworn to secrecy. Let's just say there's a lot of interest brewing in balisongs. It's an exciting time to be a balisong artist.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
The BM42 streets for about $125. It's a great knife for a great price. IMHO, with Ti handles and a great lock, it's one of the best bargains in a folding knife today. Notice that I did not say "best bargain in a balisong", I did say "best bargain in a folding knife" period. I will put the BM42 up against any comperably priced production folder out there.
This new production one that I was privileged to preview at the show is a great knife too and for the approximately $150 price (and please keep in mind that $150 is just a preliminary price at this point), it will also be an excellent folding knife bargain. It's different from the 42. It has those heavier, thicker handles that many people prefer. Where one company leaves an opening, as BM did when they went totally to Ti, another often steps in.
The latch on these prototypes is shown in the Manila configuration. But, there are holes for latch pins on the other side and the latch can be easily moved.
However, these prototypes have polished down pins like the old BMs did. No interchangable blades here folks. Personally, I'm skeptical about interchangable blades. I agree that if anyone can do it, MT can. But, others have tried. BM throughly intended to have that feature. Darrel Ralph throughly intended to have that feature. Both of them ultimately decided that it compromised the strength and durability of the joint to much.
Personally, I don't see why you want it anyway. What? Do you wake up the morning and say, "Gee, I feel like a tanto today?" Come on.
Anyway, I'm excited about MT's upcoming new offering. I'm excited about these prototypes I got to handle (and yes, they let me go to it on 'em, indeed they insisted). I'm excite about BM considering additions to their line. I'm excited about Gemini and a great maker such as Darrel Ralph adding balisongs to his line, I'm excited to have talked to another production maker seriously about it and also another custom maker chomping at the bit. Two years ago, there were none.
Oh, and I wish I could share a few more gems with you, but I'm sworn to secrecy. Let's just say there's a lot of interest brewing in balisongs. It's an exciting time to be a balisong artist.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
I just want to see a production bowie, what can I say?
I also hate to spend money, but I realize that this is a hobbie. Sure, its expensive, but if you really need a tool, get a Spyderco Endura for jimminy. Save for the quality if you want it, pass if you dont. Of course, a $30 version with $300 quality would float my boat high and proud.
Especially if it had a nice spanish bowie blade
I also hate to spend money, but I realize that this is a hobbie. Sure, its expensive, but if you really need a tool, get a Spyderco Endura for jimminy. Save for the quality if you want it, pass if you dont. Of course, a $30 version with $300 quality would float my boat high and proud.
Especially if it had a nice spanish bowie blade
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
You know something? I despise Politics, I detest Politicians. However, they are here to stay, and Politics is here to stay.
In many ways, if you could boil this Forum down, you would find alot of Politics, over and over and over again.
The BaliSong is a political beast, look at how it is legislated against. With not one, single verifiable death attributed to them, they have been demonized and all they are is a very special folding knife in the end.
What makes them special and the laws against them so incredibly stupid is the fact there is no law against Butcher's Knives which have probably over the hundreds of years, killed more people than smallpox. That is posted as hyperbole and levity, but it might not be too far from the truth.
It was not so much "politics" as it was "economics." I see one side piling it on and one side trying to peel it off, politically speaking, if that offends, so be it. I never said "all," but I do believe what I said was the truth in the context I wrote it.
I am dealing with it, and so should everyone else. Sometimes the truth sucks.
And as I have stated, in bold, do I have to use Italics next time?
I would love to see the BM44, 45 and 48 come back.
------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
I agree with you 100% to add further, if the MT BaliSong ends up being MSRP of $200.00 and about $250.00 for a Nemesis type blade, that too, is a bargain.
I am looking around in amazement at some folks, talking about knives over $100.00 like they are talking about a dirty toilet seat or something...
Folks, whatever you do, don't go to a major Knife Show...
I disagree, that is, unless they were going to entirely change their Warranty which expressly prohibits even partial disassembly of their knives.
I simply do not see them doing that. Not then or now.
I think if Darrel says it cannot or should not be done, then in my opinion, it cannot be reliably done with the degree of quality one would expect from MT. I hinted at that before, that if MT cannot do it, then it would probably take a Custom Maker to do it. If Darrel says it cannot be done...you get the drift. Darrel knows his stuff.
What whet my appetite about the ability to change blades was one thing.
A dulled and rounded Training Blade. That way, if you had 2 of the same type of knife, you could swap blades out and do draw to strike and flow drills with them.
That Post of mine was flushed down the BM Memory Hole a long time ago.
As for changing live blades out, hmmm, if you could do it, OK! Fine, I'll take a Kriss or a Spearpoint from BM, but we know that would never happen even if the blade swap feature was a reality.
I will never believe that a company who will void the Warranty on a folder simply because you made Carbon Fiber scales for your knife and put them on it, would ever do what they claimed they were going to do with the 42.
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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
BM does allow some limited screw-turning on their knives within the warranty. For example, you may remove the pocket clip if you like. Some now have reversable pocket clips. You don't have to send it in to have the pocket clip reversed. The original plan was for the new Bali-Song to be customer-replaceable within the warranty. But, after working on it, BM concluded that that would compromise the quality and durablility of the knife.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2001
- Messages
- 4,608
Phewh .. it really gets heated up here ..
Take it easy everyone ..
I am not saying that pay 100 or 200 for a quality knife or balisong is too much. There is a price to everything .. although the price sometime is inflated beyond limit. I think by having a lot of people getting into making balisong will eventually let us all with a wider range of choice ..
I personally carry my cheap waved rostfrei, simply because if I have to toss it at the BG face and take a hike, I will not suffer a collectible being gone!
Some of you might not know, Indonesia is the last country that hasn't come out from the monetary crisis that hit Asia in 1997, and the light at the end of tunnel is still so so so far away. With the rupiah sinking faster than Titanic, I can't hardly afford any quality balisong, not mentioning the confiscation by custom. If a bali is 120$ like BM42, it should cost me about 250k rupiah in the old days, but with today exchange rate, it cost me 1.3 millioin rupiah, while the salary is not adjusted that fast ..
That is why if there is a Japanese production bali with decent quality (440 blade) at about 70$ available, I might still save some to get one ...
Long live diversity.
My apology for the rambling ..
[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 04-24-2001).]
Take it easy everyone ..
I am not saying that pay 100 or 200 for a quality knife or balisong is too much. There is a price to everything .. although the price sometime is inflated beyond limit. I think by having a lot of people getting into making balisong will eventually let us all with a wider range of choice ..
I personally carry my cheap waved rostfrei, simply because if I have to toss it at the BG face and take a hike, I will not suffer a collectible being gone!
Some of you might not know, Indonesia is the last country that hasn't come out from the monetary crisis that hit Asia in 1997, and the light at the end of tunnel is still so so so far away. With the rupiah sinking faster than Titanic, I can't hardly afford any quality balisong, not mentioning the confiscation by custom. If a bali is 120$ like BM42, it should cost me about 250k rupiah in the old days, but with today exchange rate, it cost me 1.3 millioin rupiah, while the salary is not adjusted that fast ..
That is why if there is a Japanese production bali with decent quality (440 blade) at about 70$ available, I might still save some to get one ...
Long live diversity.
My apology for the rambling ..
[This message has been edited by Chris Anagarika (edited 04-24-2001).]
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2000
- Messages
- 186
Well, you Americans shouldn't be whining about prices, because I had to pay nearly twice the amount to buy my BM 42's, and I bought an Emerson Commander a few months ago, also for twice the price you guys pay for it...
And well, you pay for what you get, you pay for quality and craftsmanship.
I would love to have a handmade katana, some custom balisongs, and a Ferrari 360 Modena, I can't afford them too, but I don't whine about it.
And someone mentioned that paying over $100 for a knife that wears anyway wasn't his thing, well, I guess you shouldn't be in this hobby then, because everything wears over time, even when you don't use it.
I flip my "overpaid" BM 42's as hard as I can, and I carry my Emerson daily, because they're meant to be used and to wear.
And well, you pay for what you get, you pay for quality and craftsmanship.
I would love to have a handmade katana, some custom balisongs, and a Ferrari 360 Modena, I can't afford them too, but I don't whine about it.
And someone mentioned that paying over $100 for a knife that wears anyway wasn't his thing, well, I guess you shouldn't be in this hobby then, because everything wears over time, even when you don't use it.
I flip my "overpaid" BM 42's as hard as I can, and I carry my Emerson daily, because they're meant to be used and to wear.
Well, it's 12:30 am and I'm gassed. In this condition my posts are sometimes blunt and unrestrained. No insult meant to anyone.
Nevertheless I'm excited by all the recent bali activity, new inovations, new manufacturures, etc., bali's are an old love of mine, a singurely unique knife. I have no intent to offend anyone, but I do have some opinions, and this thread is ripe for opinions.
For those who want an inexpensive bali (sub $100) they exist now.
Some of us want something more, $150 - $250 is not unreasonable if it's right.
Chuck's comment that a production bali for $150 will soon hit the market that is far beyond any traditional prod folder in quality is difficult to accept given that I have a LCC/MA purchased for $139. If the Sebenza is the best prod folder, then the LCC/MA is certainly the second best. I don't know how they made money for the price on the first run, and neither does Jay Sadow.
These two knives are the best example of prod folders currently available. And I prefer the LCC/MA.
Furthermore, I still think the mdl 42 was poorly conceived and poorly executed.
The latch gate was a great idea, but it could have been easily added to the previously existing mdl 45. The weight on the mdl 42 was wrong and the thin handle and taper was wrong. And so was the excessive effort required to latch and unlatch. Did I do a scientific sample of many?, no. The one I did try required two hands to latch and unlatch. Way unacceptable, how did it leave the factory?
Many people claim to have adjusted to the mdl 42 and it's weight and now like/love it. But, let's face it, it was the only game in town for prod bali's. And now, even though they love their mdl 42s, they're excited about new heavier stainless designs. I tend to prefer stainless, but Ti might be fine if done right.
I'm reluctant to get into BM bashing, but even the custom bali's from BM in the final days/months/years were not up to snuff. Info direct from the factory was that they had to pull someone off the regular assembly line to put a bali together and really didn't want to. And then there was the story that some blades that were blanked for a bowie clip were sent to Elishiwitz, who erred and ground them into weehawk blades. They couldn't find another maker to grind the blades to their satisfaction so they gave it up.
I've said before in previous posts after the introduction of the mdl 42 that there were more inovations to come in Bali's beyond the latch gate and better materials. Perhaps it's on the horizon.
If not the one Chuck refers to, then perhaps the one MT will attempt.
Given current CNC equipment and knowledge gained by some (as evidenced by the LCC), I see no reason to resort to a custom, unless you must have fancy inlays, which are more of a collectors item than a user. Same goes for damascus.
If CNC equipment can produce the LCC/MA, then I think it can produce a quality bali with new innovations, some of which have not been seen before or described in detail, but have hinted at by Mike Turber and the MT project.
I also see no need for interchangeable blades. And I would prefer to see a batangas latch than a manile style since that's what most of learned with.
As for blade styles, I like an Imada High Hollow (martial style and hollow ground), but a flat ground bowie clip will serve both martial and utilitarian uses and be easier to produce by machine.
Regards,
Ron Knight
[This message has been edited by RKnight (edited 04-24-2001).]
Nevertheless I'm excited by all the recent bali activity, new inovations, new manufacturures, etc., bali's are an old love of mine, a singurely unique knife. I have no intent to offend anyone, but I do have some opinions, and this thread is ripe for opinions.
For those who want an inexpensive bali (sub $100) they exist now.
Some of us want something more, $150 - $250 is not unreasonable if it's right.
Chuck's comment that a production bali for $150 will soon hit the market that is far beyond any traditional prod folder in quality is difficult to accept given that I have a LCC/MA purchased for $139. If the Sebenza is the best prod folder, then the LCC/MA is certainly the second best. I don't know how they made money for the price on the first run, and neither does Jay Sadow.
These two knives are the best example of prod folders currently available. And I prefer the LCC/MA.
Furthermore, I still think the mdl 42 was poorly conceived and poorly executed.
The latch gate was a great idea, but it could have been easily added to the previously existing mdl 45. The weight on the mdl 42 was wrong and the thin handle and taper was wrong. And so was the excessive effort required to latch and unlatch. Did I do a scientific sample of many?, no. The one I did try required two hands to latch and unlatch. Way unacceptable, how did it leave the factory?
Many people claim to have adjusted to the mdl 42 and it's weight and now like/love it. But, let's face it, it was the only game in town for prod bali's. And now, even though they love their mdl 42s, they're excited about new heavier stainless designs. I tend to prefer stainless, but Ti might be fine if done right.
I'm reluctant to get into BM bashing, but even the custom bali's from BM in the final days/months/years were not up to snuff. Info direct from the factory was that they had to pull someone off the regular assembly line to put a bali together and really didn't want to. And then there was the story that some blades that were blanked for a bowie clip were sent to Elishiwitz, who erred and ground them into weehawk blades. They couldn't find another maker to grind the blades to their satisfaction so they gave it up.
I've said before in previous posts after the introduction of the mdl 42 that there were more inovations to come in Bali's beyond the latch gate and better materials. Perhaps it's on the horizon.
If not the one Chuck refers to, then perhaps the one MT will attempt.
Given current CNC equipment and knowledge gained by some (as evidenced by the LCC), I see no reason to resort to a custom, unless you must have fancy inlays, which are more of a collectors item than a user. Same goes for damascus.
If CNC equipment can produce the LCC/MA, then I think it can produce a quality bali with new innovations, some of which have not been seen before or described in detail, but have hinted at by Mike Turber and the MT project.
I also see no need for interchangeable blades. And I would prefer to see a batangas latch than a manile style since that's what most of learned with.
As for blade styles, I like an Imada High Hollow (martial style and hollow ground), but a flat ground bowie clip will serve both martial and utilitarian uses and be easier to produce by machine.
Regards,
Ron Knight
[This message has been edited by RKnight (edited 04-24-2001).]
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2001
- Messages
- 4,608
.. and those readily available 'quality' knives here also could be found at double the price. I saw a BM720 offered at 420$.. a CS Tai Pan at 490$ (ordinary Tai Pan)..
No pun intended. When I say 'quality' it means reputable production knife maker.. and not custom.
If a production is available at doubled or sometime tripled the price, custom is not available as the price would be skyrocketed .. till almost no buyer could be found. Those that can spend the money to buy would have bought it themselves during their trip overseas and brought back in their luggages
No pun intended. When I say 'quality' it means reputable production knife maker.. and not custom.
If a production is available at doubled or sometime tripled the price, custom is not available as the price would be skyrocketed .. till almost no buyer could be found. Those that can spend the money to buy would have bought it themselves during their trip overseas and brought back in their luggages
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Yes, that is very limited. Like I said, if you wanted to place Carbon Fiber Scales on your knife, not even involving the lock, etc., that voided the Warranty.
Now, if the CF Scales busted, that should be your baby, they obviously cannot be responsible for something they did not manufacture.
Like I said, they would have had to alter their Warranty to allow a blade swap, regardless of the particular design, a blade swap is alot more involved than the replacement or switching of a pocket clip!
But, to each his own.
I eagerly await the Entry of the new Balis you have been handling. I hope they are out in 3 months.
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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2001
- Messages
- 791
Well, it sounds that many of you are just as broke as I am. But it also sounds like some of you feel like you're being forced into buying balis. I would really like to get a Wing Chun wooden dummy (around $1,500), and start training with it, but I know that it's beyond my means. Does that mean I can never study this particular martial art? Certianly not. Quality knives are available to those who CHOOSE to buy them, and have the means to buy them. I don't have the money for one right now, but, I would be quite put out if I didn't have the option to buy a $200+ knife. And I don't believe that there is any level of skill that cannot be obtained by training on a jag or a similar quality knife. This is not to say that I wouldn't love to see some mid-range knives ($50-$70). I just wanted to make the point that we should not burn the people who make our knives, simply because they offer something beyond our price range.
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~Dave
"One in the hand is worth two in the sheath"
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~Dave
"One in the hand is worth two in the sheath"
Disco, believe me, I can definately see where you are coming from with the price thing. I believe you're a senior in high school? Correct me if I'm wrong. Well when I was a senior, there was no way anyone would have been able to talk me into believing that spending $100+ for a knife was worth it. And customs? I thought they were ludicrous! Well now, a couple of years have gone by, and I think that some of my opinions have changed. I own a 42. I'll probably buy the MT, if and when it comes out. The proto's pictured here look well worth it as well. What I'm trying to drive home is that your opinions will change as you get older and make more money. Because without much income, these knives are unattainable. It's my opinion that the high end bali's(for example) are not priced or made with the high school/college guy in mind. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have them...I encourage it! What I am saying is that I don't think companies like MT are targeting people around our age and we do not make up a large portion of their sales. Sucks, huh?
Don, you are right on both accounts. As far as how the economical side works and that economics isn't taught in public schools; at least not in the one I went to.
As far as CNC machines go, I believe that a production company using good quality CNC machinery can produce knives with just as tight tolerances as a custom maker. The only thing the production knife lacks is the personal "touch" from the individual maker and, in many cases, finishing quality is compromised a little. But, if performance is what you are looking for, I think production is the way to go. I don't own a custom and don't plan on buying one in the near future. I simply can't afford it.
Off to the machine shop to make my own balisongs. It's cheaper that way!
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Steve
(Third Mate for hire!)
Don, you are right on both accounts. As far as how the economical side works and that economics isn't taught in public schools; at least not in the one I went to.
As far as CNC machines go, I believe that a production company using good quality CNC machinery can produce knives with just as tight tolerances as a custom maker. The only thing the production knife lacks is the personal "touch" from the individual maker and, in many cases, finishing quality is compromised a little. But, if performance is what you are looking for, I think production is the way to go. I don't own a custom and don't plan on buying one in the near future. I simply can't afford it.
Off to the machine shop to make my own balisongs. It's cheaper that way!
------------------
Steve
(Third Mate for hire!)
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
Someone on the forum has a tag line that reads something like "Buy quality and you'll only cry once." Darrel Ralph's tag line reads the same as one of my sainted father's favorite proverbs, "The sweetness of low price is quickly forgotten in the bitterness of low quality."
I am not a rich man by any measure and getting poorer every day with these @$#% stock markets. But, I'd still rather own one quality item that will last a long time and serve reliably than a dozen that I can't trust. And that goes for anything. I was looking the other day for a new rain jacket. I was amazed at how much they cost (some as high as $300) and at how poor the quality is on some even high-priced ones.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
I am not a rich man by any measure and getting poorer every day with these @$#% stock markets. But, I'd still rather own one quality item that will last a long time and serve reliably than a dozen that I can't trust. And that goes for anything. I was looking the other day for a new rain jacket. I was amazed at how much they cost (some as high as $300) and at how poor the quality is on some even high-priced ones.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
- Joined
- Nov 9, 1999
- Messages
- 1,137
Chuck, are you saying that the BM44, 45 or 48 are of low quality. Because if they are/were than I've been misinformed. I was led to believe that they were damn good knives for only around $70.
To clarify my point, I'm not saying I want $300 quality in a $70 knife. But I want a $70 knife. With the balisong market as it is people like myself, with very little money extra or otherwise, we have the choice of saving up for months to buy a decent bali or saving up for a week to buy a POS. There is no middle. $120 dollars is the starting price for a decent bali. Only a few years ago it was nearly half that.
To address another point, a custom bali these days is costing around $200-$400, yes? I have no problem with the prices custom makers charge. I've begun making knives myself so I know what it take to make a good knife. And how long it takes. Knife makers must eat too. But places like Benchmade (and let me say that this is only an example, not an attack on BM) can crank them (42s and the like) out by the hundreds or thousands. Why then, are production balis approaching the same dollar mark?
And epigram79, actually I just started college so I'm in an even worse situation. At least my father is willing to pay for anything important (school, clothes, food). Unfortunately he thinks that 40+ knives are enough for anybody and I should buy my own if I want more.
To clarify my point, I'm not saying I want $300 quality in a $70 knife. But I want a $70 knife. With the balisong market as it is people like myself, with very little money extra or otherwise, we have the choice of saving up for months to buy a decent bali or saving up for a week to buy a POS. There is no middle. $120 dollars is the starting price for a decent bali. Only a few years ago it was nearly half that.
To address another point, a custom bali these days is costing around $200-$400, yes? I have no problem with the prices custom makers charge. I've begun making knives myself so I know what it take to make a good knife. And how long it takes. Knife makers must eat too. But places like Benchmade (and let me say that this is only an example, not an attack on BM) can crank them (42s and the like) out by the hundreds or thousands. Why then, are production balis approaching the same dollar mark?
And epigram79, actually I just started college so I'm in an even worse situation. At least my father is willing to pay for anything important (school, clothes, food). Unfortunately he thinks that 40+ knives are enough for anybody and I should buy my own if I want more.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
I have seen PC/BM Customs that were outstanding, and I have seen a few of them that were just heavier than the 44, 45 and 48 and basically the main difference was, the Customs were a bit heavier and handmade. But "handmade" is a very interesting term as most good BaliSongs, including the 44, 45 and 48 had to be hand fitted anyway.
All I have to say is, where can I get a truly Custom BaliSong for $200.00?
The MT promises to be that quality for that price, but as of right now, I know of no one who is offering a Custom BaliSong starting at $200.00
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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe