Is it just me or is Benchmade really falling behind.

10000% agreed.

At one time, S30V was the "flavor of the week" and there were plenty of people that could not figure out why anyone would want something better than ATS-34.

I have yet to figure out if the majority of people defending the S30V blanket are defending the steel itself, or just refuse to question Benchmade's questionable choice. Methinks it's the latter.

I said it before, my own suspicion is that Benchmade bartered a smoking deal for a massive batch of S30V, and now the consumer gets a whitewashed product line until that contract runs dry.

*removes tinfoil hat*

More than likely you're correct. 154cm is dated and S30v is their go to now. Not everyone looks for the same thing in an alloy though and I don't mind the argument that Benchmade could and maybe should produce some different options. My point is that alloy isn't the only thing in the equation when it comes to a knife and someone's needs. Not sure if I said that clearly earlier.

:)

Also, Cypress, I've always enjoyed your commentary. When I saw your Contego for sale that Benchmade had pretty much completely refurbished I remembered why I liked Benchmade so much.
 
Maybe that was a harsh phase and I apologize for that.
No apology is needed on your behalf, if anything you have my apologies if I came across as slighted or defensive. It was not meant like that, nor was your statement taken as abrasive. I understand that it is just a phrase that is tossed around, and I know that there was no ill intent meant from the use of it.

My old man uses a 154cm Mini Grip and loves it. He has never cared much for stainless steel as he finds it hard to sharpen.
You do know that 154cm is a stainless alloy, did you mean carbon steel?

I hate for this to become a Benchmade vs. Spyderco thread but it generally does because those two and ZT are the big three in terms of production knives for most people.
I completely agree, but unfortunately we don't have many brands to really pull from. Primarily due to most other brands either using S35Vn or "higher" grades of alloys, or more generic things like 440c, 8cr, et al...

It just seems like Benchmade is set on staying in the "middle son" position that tends to be over looked. Not the baby that has everyone's eye, and not the older sibling that is doing new things to keep folks attention...

ZT uses S35Vn and an M390 variant in most of its knives, and most folks don't complain aside from those that are starting to find S35Vn "vanilla".

Spyderco uses Many alloys, and has the manufacturing support and wide (but arguably shallow*) market to support them.

Reate, and many other smaller production brands have the blessing and curse of their lack in a concrete "brand identity" to be able to be more flexible with designs and alloys, though most do use S35Vn.
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I feel that Benchmade is in a peculiar spot. One that may end up being essentially a higher end Gerber. If that seems harsh, it is because I can't think of a more accurate brand. Though I will agree that Gerber isn't quite correct.

Essentially I classify 154cm, 440c, 8cr, 9cr, et al alloys in this class akin to one another, and S30V is borderline joining the group (a generic, vanilla, but passable daily carry alloy). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many here would agree.

That being said, I feel they are riding on the strength of their axis lock and the corner of the market that it holds.
 
No apology is needed on your behalf, if anything you have my apologies if I came across as slighted or defensive. It was not meant like that, nor was your statement taken as abrasive. I understand that it is just a phrase that is tossed around, and I know that there was no ill intent meant from the use of it.

You do know that 154cm is a stainless alloy, did you mean carbon steel?

Good, I didn't want to come across as judgemental and I took no offense to your post either.

I do know that 154cm is stainless. My old man needed a new knife and called me wanting to know if there was a carbon steel knife that was one hand opening and had a pocket clip on it. He had always carried a traditional but liked some of the knives I had been carrying. I got him a 556 because I knew that it wasn't bad to maintain and he wouldn't get frustrated with it. A lot of the old timers I know are that way. He loves that knife but I would be hesitant to give him S90v or S110v because I think he would have difficulty sharpening it and get frustrated with it. A quality he likes is easy maintenance.

I completely agree, but unfortunately we don't have many brands to really pull from. Primarily due to most other brands either using S35Vn or "higher" grades of alloys, or more generic things like 440c, 8cr, et al...

It just seems like Benchmade is set on staying in the "middle son" position that tends to be over looked. Not the baby that has everyone's eye, and not the older sibling that is doing new things to keep folks attention...

ZT uses S35Vn and an M390 variant in most of its knives, and most folks don't complain aside from those that are starting to find S35Vn "vanilla".

Spyderco uses Many alloys, and has the manufacturing support and wide (but arguably shallow*) market to support them.

Reate, and many other smaller production brands have the blessing and curse of their lack in a concrete "brand identity" to be able to be more flexible with designs and alloys, though most do use S35Vn.
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I feel that Benchmade is in a peculiar spot. One that may end up being essentially a higher end Gerber. If that seems harsh, it is because I can't think of a more accurate brand. Though I will agree that Gerber isn't quite correct.

Essentially I classify 154cm, 440c, 8cr, 9cr, et al alloys in this class akin to one another, and S30V is borderline joining the group (a generic, vanilla, but passable daily carry alloy). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many here would agree.

That being said, I feel they are riding on the strength of their axis lock and the corner of the market that it holds.

Gerber? Ouch! lol

I hope it doesn't ever get to that point. I prefer to buy US made knives if I can and while ZT is US made I haven't really connected with the designs at all. Also, I have a sour taste in my mouth for what KAI has done with Kershaw just as I have a sour taste over what Buck and Gerber have gone to. So ZT is generally out for me. Spyderco makes a quality product but some of the design's just aren't as streamlined as I'd like. I like more of the designs that Benchmade is putting out, I like the Axis lock, I like their CS, and I don't mind the alloys being used in current production. I'm not necessarily a steel junky and I don't mean that in a negative way. The sum of the parts matter more than one particular part. With that being said (i've said this before, I think); I wouldn't mind some variety like S35vn, CTS XHP/204P, and M390 thrown into the Benchmade line up. Variety isn't a bad thing but I don't need it as much as some members may.
 
Benchmade is just becoming a go to word for great knife designs built with tons of QC issues. I am sorry but compared to brands like ZT, which keep pushing the envelop, Benchmade is just not innovative in my eyes.

ZT is building better knives every generation and bringing its customers more for their dollar. In an American made knife to boot.

Spyderco is always trying new steels and bulding knives to take advantage of that steel.

I think the comparison to Gerber is unfair. A closer comparison would be CRKT or BOKER in my eyes. In that way I mean the designs are great but the production leaves something to be desired. I honestly think BM is hoping that it has some people who love the Axis so much that they will remain loyal.
 
I think the comparison to Gerber is unfair. A closer comparison would be CRKT or BOKER in my eyes. In that way I mean the designs are great but the production leaves something to be desired. I honestly think BM is hoping that it has some people who love the Axis so much that they will remain loyal.

This is what I was trying to convey. Not so much Gerber, but a brand that didn't immediately come to mind and these two seem to fit a bit better.
 
This is all very interesting as well as being a refreshingly civil conversation given how these sorts of threads often go.

As to the QC issue, I must agree that there have clearly been issues on that front with BMK as there are plenty of solid members here who have attested to it. There are also plenty of the Chicken Little or dog-piler variety whose testimony may be discounted. For my part, I'll restate that I have generally not experienced any insurmountable issues (save one) with the 32 I've bought. I still have 26 of those and my wife 4. I'm not fussy about knives whose price points center in the $200 range, but am not in anyway satisfied by lousy F&F or QC either. I like nice stuff made well but don't mind tinkering with knives to get 'em the way I like either and have done as much with my CRKs, Shiros, and other high-enders as well.

As to the steel discussion, I'm with BMCGear BMCGear as to the blade steel being only part of the equation regarding knives I buy, like, use, keep, or sell. As there's been sort of a running comparison between steel offerings from Spyderco and Benchmade here, I went through my knife boxes and inventoried my current Spydies and BMKs as well as those I've sold for blade steels. Note that I don't disagree that Spyderco's current or recent steel offerings have been both broader and "more modern" than Benchmade's.

What I found was that of our current 20 Spydies there are 3 in 8Cr13MoV, 4 in VG10, and 13 in S30V. The 8Cr's are Tenacious's in three colors, which I have a soft-spot for as one of those was my gateway knife. 3 of the VG10s are of the Delica/Endura variety bought for short money when KSF closed out their Spydies and because they're kinda iconic to the line, while the other is my Superleaf--a giant, short-lived, compression-lock knife that I always wanted. The S30Vs comprise 2 Milles, 2 Para2s, a Para3, all 6 Sages, and a Manix2 and XL. Those S30Vs are all favorites, though the Sages are more collectibles than carries. I could get some in "better" steels, but the knives aren't diminished in mt estimation by their blades. The four I sold were a Southard in CTS-204P, a Domino in CTS-XHP, Gayle Bradley in M4, and Manix LW in CTS-BD1, which are all superior steels save for the last. For one reason or another, the knives didn't suit me and I sold them as they had some return value despite their blade steel.

Of our current 30 Benchmades, 6 are in ATS34, 10 are 154CM, 4 D2, 1 440C, 3 S30V, 4 M390, 1 M4, and 1 20CV. Clearly the ATS34s and the 440C are old-school and long-disco'd models. 3 of the D2s are 710s and the other is an AFCK. The M390s are 2 Ritters, a 710-1401, and a 581 Barrage; the M4 is a 908-1501--all of those recently disco'd. The S30Vs and 20CV are current production models. The two sold are a 940-1 in S90V and 755MPR in M390.

So there's some interesting things to note here. I have more steel variety and more "better" steel in my Benchmades than Spydies, though, again, Spyderco has more current variety and more modern steel offerings. I also really like the old-school BMKs, which accounts for a lot of the older steels. The fact that most of my "better" steel BMKs are discontinued helps make @Cypress 's case that Benchmade has less to offer in newer or modern steels and indeed may have cut out some of their knives with "higher end" blade-steel choices. On the other hand, the fact that all but one of the knives on my sold list had "better" steel reinforces my view about the steel being just part of the equation to me.

I would say that my ATS34, 440C, and even 154CM blades are easy to sharpen and I can get some of my keenest edges on those blades, though their edge retention is not great. Still, they get really sharp and I do cut stuff with my knives. S30V ain't bad either. I certainly have an appreciation for M390 and more modern super-steels as well as attested to by 4 of my 5 Shiros, plus a Les George, an Olamic, and a few others. I don't like my S30V Shiro any less, though. I love my half-dozen CRKs and 3 Hinderers, though it's been suggested that S35VN may be closer to being a more pedestrian steel now.

I would disagree that 8Cr should be lumped with 154CM or 440C. As much as I'm fond of my Tenasci, I can't really get a good edge on 8Cr and think it's really kind of a crap steel. My gateway combo-edged Tenacious is one of my favorite work beaters and not a great cutter by any means. I'm not very fond of VG10, either, but my Delica and Endura are two of my woods knives for their bright colors and I'm not that worried about losing or damaging knives at their price points.

Sorry for the wall of text, but as much time as I spent compiling my list I was gonna share it and my thoughts. Again, interesting and civil conversation here. BTW, where did our OP go, anyway? :oops:

(Edited out grammatical redundancy.)
 
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ChazzyP ChazzyP solid post and well said.

Nothing wrong with disagreements or different opinions when the discussion stays civil. Kudos to all for contributing. :)
 
I have about 6 BM knives and I enjoy using and carrying them but I doubt I'll buy any more as I think they're over priced. I'm just not seeing the value anymore.

And I'm still salty that I sent my mini-grip to them earlier this year and it got lost in the mail. No one knows anything and I didn't keep the tracking number. Ok, so that was my fault but I'm still salty about it.

Scott
 
What I mean is the axis lock is not very strong to keep blade in close position.

This is IMO a weakness of Axis lock, which surprisingly not many people dont mention (maybe they dont care?).

Tri-ad lock has the same weakness, BTW.
 
This is IMO a weakness of Axis lock, which surprisingly not many people dont mention (maybe they dont care?).

Tri-ad lock has the same weakness, BTW.
Did you just say the Tri-ad lock has trouble staying closed? Never in my 20 yrs of knife experience have i ever once heard someone say that. Maybe you worded it incorrectly?
 
1. Poor QC: I've heard lots of promises on this very forum that BMs QC issues will be resolved. So far I have seen no move to actually address this.
They are a high volume serial manufacturer, they probably focus on reducing rates. Eliminating issues altogether is unrealistic.

Some of us are ok with not having the "flavor of the week" when it comes to blade steel. When I have bought Spyderco's I never really sought out models with S110v or Maxamet as they don't appeal to me. I try to find a balance between sharpen-ability and edge retention. Most of the models tha
I hate sharpening super duper steels. S30V is one of my favorites because it balances edge retention with reasonable sharpenability. The trendy steels these days are not really much of an improvement over S30V IMO, except M390. I love M390.

In all the critiques of S30V nobody really cites poor performance. It seems for the money they want the perceived upgraded steel. If S35VN is better than S30V it is beyond my perception.
 
They are a high volume serial manufacturer, they probably focus on reducing rates. Eliminating issues altogether is unrealistic.


I hate sharpening super duper steels. S30V is one of my favorites because it balances edge retention with reasonable sharpenability. The trendy steels these days are not really much of an improvement over S30V IMO, except M390. I love M390.

In all the critiques of S30V nobody really cites poor performance. It seems for the money they want the perceived upgraded steel. If S35VN is better than S30V it is beyond my perception.

I just find that s30v is harder to sharpen and easier to chip, for little traded improvement over s35vn.

No one is saying that Benchmade should eliminate issues with their product entirely, just that we want to be able to buy a BM knife without there being atleas a 50% chance there will be some issue.
 
Respect your post, but it seems people tend to overlook some of the amazing knives benchmade puts out. Perfect example... the Foray!! 20cv, super thick blade, solid solid knife, yet you never hear much about it. Everyone wants new new new and completely disregard the impact on the knife world some of their knives have made. The grip... classic. 940...legendary! And if their go to steel for their averaged priced knives is s30v then hell man, that doesn't sound too bad at all to me. 4 to 5 great, solid knives a year is better than 40 to 50 beaters. Just my opinion my friend
 
Did you just say the Tri-ad lock has trouble staying closed? Never in my 20 yrs of knife experience have i ever once heard someone say that. Maybe you worded it incorrectly?

Not having trouble staying closed, but can be shaken open more easily than, say, liner lock , frame lock, or compression lock. Now, I have had only four tri ad lock knives and all are like that, but it could be that my samole is too small.
 
I can shake a few of my current AXIS lock knives out partially, but most not at all. I haven't had any open on the way out-of-pocket by catching thumb studs or whatever. They might pop open when dropped, but so will a lot of other lock-type knives. One BMK that was bad for that was the rather silly 300 AXIS Flipper that I sold and forgot to include in my listing or post (wishful thinking?) that would shake out easily. The other bad one was my MPR which is a framelock and would open if you batted your eyes at it.

Interestingly, two knives I have that are among my very favorites that can shake out with a little effort and require care when handling are my 3.5"XM18 and XM24 Hinderers. I take a sec when taking them out of my pocket so I don't catch a thumb stud and end up with a partially or fully open blade. Obviously, I'm not a wave guy. :rolleyes:
 
I can shake a few of my current AXIS lock knives out partially, but most not at all. I haven't had any open on the way out-of-pocket by catching thumb studs or whatever. They might pop open when dropped, but so will a lot of other lock-type knives. One BMK that was bad for that was the rather silly 300 AXIS Flipper that I sold and forgot to include in my listing or post (wishful thinking?) that would shake out easily. The other bad one was my MPR which is a framelock and would open if you batted your eyes at it.

Interestingly, two knives I have that are among my very favorites that can shake out with a little effort and require care when handling are my 3.5"XM18 and XM24 Hinderers. I take a sec when taking them out of my pocket so I don't catch a thumb stud and end up with a partially or fully open blade. Obviously, I'm not a wave guy. :rolleyes:

You speed that up abit by simply putting your finger over the spine of the knife when you draw it.
 
710 in M390,940 S30V,Ritter mini grip Wilkins in M390 and 755 in M390 are mine BM and love them all.Of course they are just part of bigger collection but I will never part with those.
 
You speed that up abit by simply putting your finger over the spine of the knife when you draw it.
That's a good tip that I'll remember. I get into a little trouble with those when I'm sitting down and pull the knife out by the lanyard. :eek:
 
That's a good tip that I'll remember. I get into a little trouble with those when I'm sitting down and pull the knife out by the lanyard. :eek:

That's a tip that should come printed on the box of every Emerson.
 
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