Katrina Aftermath

I hear you Thomas.
Everyone is blaming everyone else. I think the stupidest thing that I have heard on various message boards were coming from European posters (I should point out these were elitist that like to say smarmy things about the US because it's oh so very trendy these days) claim that Bush caused the hurricane with his lax stance on global warming and the G8 summit. Just how in the heck could one man in 5 years cause enough of an increase in global temps to spawn a massive storm? Should we conserve? Heck ya! Is it a bit fishy that those whose vast sums of wealth stemming from the oil industry don't believe that global warming exisits? Yeah, i think so. Is the president of the United States of America, as unpopular as he may be with some folks, the cause of each and every poopy situation in the entire freakin' world? Come on. Just what in the heck happened to plain ol' bad luck and getting caught with your pants down?
The system was shoddy at best. The local government should have trucked more people out of there. At the same time, people can't play the "I'm poor so i can't walk my happy butt out of harms way, but i have enough energy to loot, smash, and rape once the storm blows though" card. Neighbors should ahve helped neighbors. This is a blackmark for the US. Worse than that, this is a blackmark on humanity itself. What's going to happen when the next world war breaks out?
Jake
 
Storm disaster fuels doubts over US terror plans


WASHINGTON, Sept 2 (Reuters) - Hurricane Katrina's devastation of New Orleans -- and the delay helping stranded people get out or even get water and food -- is raising doubts that U.S. cities may be ill-prepared to cope with a potentially worse disaster: a major attack.

Four years after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the storm disaster marked the first time the federal government has invoked its post-Sept. 11 response plan aimed at enhancing Washington's ability to deal with national incidents.

But as Americans reeled at images of death and desperation among the city's refugees, experts on domestic security said a nuclear or biological attack on a big U.S. city could cause greater mayhem, and unlike the storm, come without warning.

The New Orleans disaster is already viewed as an illustration of what can go wrong in an American city under siege.

"In many ways, this is a test of our national capacity," said James Carafano, senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "If we can't do this 24-7-365, we aren't doing our job for preparedness."

http://today.reuters.com/PrinterFri...27000_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-TERRORISM.XML
 
So far, most of that mayhem seems to be one-sided. Human nature beiing what it is, I think it is strange that some right-wing guy down there hasn't equipped and positioned himself to fulfill the ultimate fantasy for some such folks: popping all the gang members you want from a distance without worrying about getting caught>>>>>>>>> Cliff355


I think this is a poor understanding of what Right Wing is. What you are talking about is being nuts.

I also thinks this comment diverts the issue. The issue is an 'underclass' of people in the US who are capable of anything and are now fouling up a rescue of tens of thousands of innocent people. The right wing did not make these people. They have been enabled, as Spectre and Linton point out, and enjoy the control and chaos and despair they are now bringing.
Last night I heard on the news there were 7 rapes in the Superdome and some number of murders the night before. ( I forgot the number) That is the problem. Shooting at the fleet of rescue boats and military helicopters is the problem.

If we could magically figure out who was endangering all the innocent lives I'm not sure I wouldn't pull the switch on them myself, and I bet a lot of us feel the same, politics aside.


munk
 
New Orleans is starting to look a lot like beautiful downtown Bagdhad after the invasion. No IED's yet but gun battles, looting, and crime. Complaints from the citizens are basically the same in both places. No security, no drinking water, no electric, poor planning.

Interesting we have put $$$$ into Homeland Security and yet the whole situation, which could be virtually the same as if there was a major terrorist attack or dirty bomb seems to be beyond the scope of that department.>>>>>>>>>> Hollowdweller

Hollow, I realize you are our lovable crazy Dead Head Liberal, (as I am the not so lovable, Dead Head Conservative.) But the purpose of comparing Bagdad to New Orleans is beyond me in logic, unless you wish to draw the analogy that everything the Bush administration touches ends up looking like this. If you do not wish to state that, then your comment falls into the area of cheap shot.

As for the 'scope of the department', this disaster was beyond the scope of every agency and department and is going to be a trajedy and an grand opportunity to improve. Looks like we simply forgot what the world is like without electricity, and we made the wrong assumption our citizens were ON OUR SIDE and WANTED RESCUE. I should point out it was the Democratic Mayor of New Orleans and others who did not actively confront looting early on, and set the stage for continued choas, not the Bush Administration. Further, other States so affected, their Governors and AG's came on the tube the first day afterwards and said looting would not be tolerated and have not had the same problems.

It would not surprise me if Al Queda had lit some of the fires in NO. I say that knowing full well there are criminals capable of doing so all on their own.

Life is not solvable. It is merely survivable. It is an artificial witch hunt to start pursueing blame. WE had an unprecedented rescue response to the hurricane and it was not good enough. We'll do better.

This is enough for me. When this first started I was somewhat soft on the idea of a poor slob stealing a TV. This is my policy now; shoot looters.


munk
 
Thomas Linton said:
Let's not talk about a police chief saying force would not be used on looters.
Click to expand...

Could anyone point me to a specific quote reg. this?

Thanks,

JD
 
I know the Police Chief of Miami was quoted on Fox as saying in today's modern world force was no longer an option for the problem of looters. I think the NO mayor did the same thing; if not directly than tacitly by not jumping on it from the get go. Whether or not a direct quote can be attributed to the Mayor of NO, the permissive stance taken helped bring chaos about. Note again neighboring States with extensive damage who have been on the record as forcefull against looting have not had the problems as NO.


munk
 
What are you talking about? A cop DIED confronting looters. If a looter had been shot, do you think we would have the gravity of the situation we do now? What is it you are saying?

I'm not gung ho for anything. I'm sadly aware there are some onerous tasks that men must do. If someone breaks into my home and endangers my family, I may have to employ lethal force. If someone is shooting at rescue boats or looting and endangering tens of thousands of people by creating an unstable and dangerous environment, they are eligible for lethal force. A guy lighting a fire in NO at this moment in that City's history needs to be SHOT.

WE shoot rabid dogs for a reason. That is being 'level headed'.

You seem to be confusing which of the segments of society are guilty of criminal behavior in this circumstance.

munk
 
cliff355 said:
... I think it is strange that some right-wing guy down there hasn't equipped and positioned himself to fulfill the ultimate fantasy for some such folks: popping all the gang members you want from a distance without worrying about getting caught.
Click to expand...

That we have heard anyway...

BTW, I don't think I am either wing...but I would be quite satisfied to sit on a rooftop and help prevent muggings, rapes, carjackings and assaults on rescue troops.
 
No, we haven't heard that- but this just in- about 50 Firemen and their familiy's are hunkered down somewhere in New Orleans because SNIPERS are shooting at them.

This has become one of the events which define a lifetime. Katrina and New Orleans. I am beginning to seriously wonder if Al Queda has anything to do with this. I can see destruction, violence, robbery etc from angry criminals; but a systematic assault on a group of Firemen?


munk
 
JD, I am insufficiently hip to know what a "quote req." is; however, I remembered inaccurately. Probably the excitement. I'm getting old.

The chief ("Superintendant") didn't say they would not use force.


He said they would do nothing.

"We'll deal with the looting afterwards. Human life is out top priority." (?!!)

This must have comforted those being robbed, assaulted, raped, and killed by looters -- not to mention those losing all their water and food to looters.

Obviously, Bush really screwed up in appointing Eddie Compass III to be Police Superintendant.

(Oh, that's right. He didn't)

How about: "I want looters to know that anyone caught looting anything other than food and water will be shot - preferably several times." Then show several flood victim bodies (hide faces) and identify them as looters shot on sight. Cut to large groups of cops with shotguns and grim looks.

(Oh that's right. Not PC.)

(Just a few of 100's of sources of quote of Superintendant: Times-Picayune; AP; ABS)
 
Thanks for that, Thomas. I'm going a little crazy here. I'm sad and upset. I think this may be about the worse thing that's ever happened to us. At least with 9-11 we came together and saw the challenges. They'll be talking about this Hurricane and what happened afterwards for a thousand years. Our U.S. of A. has problems. We didn't do this right and people died.

FOX dropped the fireman/sniper story so it must have been a rumor reported as fact earlier. But what's coming in tonight is simply hell. No one should have to go through that. People are dying and more will die tonight. Everyone's mad. They're mad in New Orleans, mad in Montana, and mad in the Whitehouse. Maybe we'll all get mad as hell together and this won't happen again.

I thought after 9-11 nothing would take my breath away. But this has.

You know those ghost stories abounding around old Civil War battle fields? This is history in the making, people, a human event of enough loss, ignorance, hope and courage to rival the pain of those soldiers who died a long time ago. They'll be new ghost stories out of New Orleans after this; the day we found our post 9-11 Nation couldn't fix everything, couldn't even fix itself.

They'll have ghosts in the neighborhoods in New Orleans, probably have ghosts on sidewalks, ghosts in the Superdome and ghosts on a couple well known freeway overpasses. There'll be a few moments of silence in the cars driving over those sections. Well, New Orleans is used to this, to ghosts. But I sure wasn't.

Prayers for New Orleans.


munk
 
You got that right Munk. New Orelans is chock full of ghosts.
Still, let us not forget that 6,000 died inthat 1906 hurrican in Texas.
That blows both 9-11 and Katrina away in terms of human loss of life.
Also, 250,000 died in the SE Asian tsunami, thats still being cleaned up, so dont get too down, Munk.

Why dont we cheer ourselves up by thinking about all of the rescue and relief units pouring in from overseas.
Who was on the scene first ?
France, Germany? Mexico?
 
Actually, I thought several nations had offered support- Australia, Israel, Canada. More.

>>>>>>>>>

We watched it unfold on TV and could not stop it, we did not get there in best time.

munk
 
I posted this on another thread; but, I thought that it is appopriate to this thread.

*****************

As for Bush; I think that he will be hurt by this storm.

1) His response missed the 72 hour window that is generally believed critical to saving trapped and injured survivors. The delay will be blamed for contributing to much loss of life.

2) The death toll is going to shock us all. Apart from the people who are being rescued from the roof tops there are many more who I am sure never made it onto their roofs, or even into their attics.

3) The impact of elevated gasoline, gas, and home fuel oil, prices is going to generate the kind of inflation that will hurt middle and working class people everywhere. It will create much cost push inflation, and may even drive some shaky businesses, like many airlines, out of business. Bush's callous - well conserve - response; is not going to go over well. Most of us drive because we have to and conservation, as in running out to buy a new car, is not a practical short term solution. His response amounts to "let them eat cake."

4) The costs of the storm - in terms of reconstruction and in terms of looming financial crisis (dead people, and those w/o jobs and assets, cannot pay their debt) is going to put a serious hurt on our economy, and may even prove to be the final straw that breaks the housing bubble. We have to reconstruct a city, while writing off much of the debt that was secured by the now worthless assets. We also will have to deal with refugee population for the long term and develop programs to effectively wean them back into the social fabric; and, that doesn't even consider the enormous cost of the initial rescue and clean up operations.

It is a though position for this President to be in. He may even be force (by our international creditors) to retreat and reneg on his earlier tax cuts; especially, estate and capital gains cuts, since these would primarilly impact those less affected by inflation and rising fuel costs.

n2s

p.s.

I believe that the reason that the refugees are being distributed ad hoc throughout the country, instead of being housed in more readily established locations ( such as those many scheduled - soon to be closed down - military bases) is that the administration would like to conceal the cost of that effort. By distributing them the cost falls primarilly on the community and state, rather then on then directly Federal government. Thus making it harder for anyone to get a full accounting. In other words you are going to be taxed, but it will be hidden as either a sales tax (state), or property tax(local), or other mechanism, i/o the federal budget (INS) (prepare to be SCREWED)

__________________
 
I hesitate to get into this one, but I really think that the National Guard should be at home to protect us and deal with emergencies - like Katrina.
Wars are for armies, and wars are expensive.

These comments have nothing to do with ideology or my political views.

I was horrified at what has been going on in New Orleans, but was even more astounded to hear Chertoff(sp?) claiming that it was absurd that there were people at the convention center in NO going without food. He engaged in denial. Brown (the head of FEMA) didn't have a clue that there was a problem until Thurs. Why aren't these guys doing their jobs?

Perhaps, someone in charge should have gone down to New Orleans Friday to find out what was going on.

Is anyone in charge?
 
I really think that the National Guard should be at home to protect us

I would love to see them deployed to our borders to stem the invasion.

n2s
 
N2's belief about not using military bases may or may not be valid. It is very hard to close a base with 10,000 refugees inside, and I actually think that is the driving concern.

Bush had the disaster area declaration signed and done two days before the storm hit. The Govenor and local officials of NO have much to answer for. But the blame game is pointless as far as sacraficial goats; what is important is not having this happen again. To that, I think for now on Troops are going to be called first to any disaster, as we are no longer of the belief our population will not shoot at rescuers. No one anticipated that.

Perhaps the Republicans will lose the Presidency next cycle.



munk
 
Please tell us how to "solve" the problem of rising energy prices.

The solution is better appreciated if you think of it as a sinking dollar rather then rising oil. Someone has something that you want, but what you produce is no longer as desirable or unique as it once was, therefore you need to work more to get what you need. Part of the solution involves the reindustrialization of our nation, a reorientation of laws and regulations so as to once again weigh in favor of safe development over blind environmental conservatism. Part involves a change in our own social structure: perhaps a retrun to single income families (less driving - more stable - hence more productive/efficent), perhaps a series of protections, infrastructure, or acceptance for things like telecommuting (why would you need to drive to an office building - what can you do there that you couldn't do from home) - build new housing to include Class I (TBD) workspaces, as they do bathrooms, kitchens, etc., and get industry to buy into using them.

There is no scarcity of fuels, we just have do a better job of harvesting what is available to produce what we need. Energy companies haven't invested squat in this country in decades, they have been sitting on the fat A$$ milking the cow, and it is time to encourage them to upgrade.

n2s
 
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