Mini History of Cold Steel SRK and Recon Tanto

[The Whip]

This topic requires more research, which I should have time for tomorrow. But in the meanwhile, I'll supply this. I never caught the connection before, but I'd say that Western Cutlery definitely was manufacturing for Cold Steel.

The Western R16

The Cold Steel All Terrain Hunter

Couldn't find any decent pictures, but the Western R18 (bottom knife)

was the model corresponding to the All Terrain Hunter Plus.

Western apparently made the Carbon V Filet line, as well.

Note also that Western appears to have occasionally darkened the lettering on its tang stamps.

I'll dig into some history and see if I can come up with any new details about SRK dates and Carbon V. Fun stuff, at least to a knife geek like me!

-Steve

 

[jlauffer]

So apparently Carbon V was originally from Sharon Steel, which went under in 1988. But it was still under patent, so they had to change it a bit, which is where Camillus came in...the next Carbon V was a modified version of their 0170-6C. Not sure this helps at all, but found it interesting.

 

[The Whip]

OK, did some more research. Here's what I found.

From a December 2010 Blade Forums thread:

KnarfEng,

Here is the correct time line:

1) Cold Steel Carbon V was first produced in the Alcas Factory (Cutco and KA-BAR) Mid 1980s, Carbon V was originally 1095CV/0170-06/50100B.
2) Cold Steel moved to Ontario early 1990s. Carbon V started out as 1095CV/0170-06/50100B but while at Ontario, Dan Maragni removed the small amount of nickel from the formula.
3) Cold Steel moved to Camillus approx. 1995. Carbon V stayed 0170-06 minus the nickel.
How do I know all of this?...I worked at all 3 factories.

Basically the last Carbon V is still 0170-06. Don't know why Dan M. removed the nickel. Nickel, in addition to the added toughness, it also decreases the transformation temp. It is added to counterbalance the chrome which raises the transformation temp. We want lower transformation temps when heat treating carbon steel. Notice that the Austenizing temps for stainless steel are much higher due to the large amounts of chrome.

KA-BAR marquenches/martempers it's 1095 Cv blades. I don't know for a fact but I suspect Rowen does the same with ESEE's 1095 blades. Shon is tight lipped about how he heat treats. Marquenching adds toughness while keeping hardness at a very high level.

Hope all of this helps everyone.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives

Note that Mr. Tsujimoto doesn't mention Western, more than likely because he wasn't employed there. He wouldn't have known if Cold Steel was having Carbon V knives made by other companies with which he had no connection.


And this is a quote from Mike Stewart of Bark River Knives via Forum member STR in a March 2006 Blade Forums thread:

Here is his exact reply to me on a similar question from a past thread. This is the whole reply without editing or corrections. I should have used it in the first place but tried to shorten it by paraphrasing a bit.

"I noticed that you and a number of folks have been guessing what this is.

I have posted this before but it appears that a lot of folks have not seeen it.

CV--Chorme Vanadium Steel and Carbon V are all the very same steel.

This is not a mistery steel. It is not a new steel. It had been made by the hundreds of tons For many many ywears and used by ALL the major Knife Companies for Decades.

It is 0170-6 cutlery Steel...It was developed in the 1950's by sharon Steel specifically for Knives.

It is an enhanced 1095. They added Nickel--Chromium and a trace of Vanadium. it was a patented steel of Sharon.

Everybody used it. it was called by cute names by some companies --Chrome-Vanadium by others.

This was the original Steel chosen by both Lynn Thomson for his Trailmaster and me for the Old Mamba. We all used it until 1988.

sharon Steel went Bankrupt in 1988. None of us could get it and no other mill would duplicate it because the papent was still in effect.

We all switched to other steels.

A couple of years ago Case and Camillus Found a mill that would duplicate the Chemistry and they ordered a heat lot--+/_ 100,000 lbs.

Case had thier portion of the heat lot rolled to pocket knife sizes and Camillius had thier portion rolled to use for Lynn on his U.S. made knives and the Becker line.

This was an excellent steel and will out perform 1095. I have used it in a lot of the early Blackjacks. I still have some and made our goloks and Northwind Swords from it.

I have no idea why this question keeps comming up. All of this is common knowledge in the industry.

I suspect that nobody will be using it except for Case, Cammilius, Becker, Westerm and Cold Steel.

As I'm sure you know that Case makes thier knives and Camillius makes all of the other brands that I just mentioned.

I doubt that you will have any better luck relaying this info either. It dosen't seem that folks want the truth.

It's more fun for folks to speculate....................."

By January 2007, Cold Steel only had a single supplier of Carbon V knives. In an industry brochure bearing that date, Cold Steel said that the supplier was struggling financially and had laid off all of the employees capable of making Cold Steel's models, so Cold Steel therefore had ceased production of Carbon V knives. The company was never named, but we now know it to be Camillus.

-Steve

 

[Toooj]

Hi Whip,

Sorry for crashing the Cold Steel forum but I can help clear up some of the confusion on Cold Steel.
In the late 1980s Western folded. Camillus Cutlery bought the name and much of the assets of Western; including the tooling. Cold Steel went to Camillus around mid 1990s.
The molded Western handle ( now owned by Camillus) was easily converted to say "Cold Steel". So if there was a Western connection, it was through Camillus Cutlery.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

 

[The Whip]

Hi Whip,

Sorry for crashing the Cold Steel forum but I can help clear up some of the confusion on Cold Steel.
In the late 1980s Western folded. Camillus Cutlery bought the name and much of the assets of Western; including the tooling. Cold Steel went to Camillus around mid 1990s.
The molded Western handle ( now owned by Camillus) was easily converted to say "Cold Steel". So if there was a Western connection, it was through Camillus Cutlery.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

You're not crashing the subforum at all, Paul! I'm very glad that you joined the conversation, as your insight and expertise are welcome. Perhaps you can shed some light on this line of inquiry for us. We're discussing whether the description of a Cold Steel knife recently sold on eBay is accurate.

Here is the knife.

And here is the seller's description.

We know that the SRK was introduced in 1990, so it was under development and being prototyped in the late 1980s. We know from your history that Camillus didn't begin manufacturing for Cold Steel until the mid-1990s. Is it possible that the original SRKs were produced by Western Cutlery?

-Steve

 

[jlauffer]

And who was making the other Carbon V knives for CS before Camillus?

 

[Man with no name]

And who was making the other Carbon V knives for CS before Camillus?

Wasn't it Buck?

 

[The Whip]

Wasn't it Buck?

No, I don't think so. According to A.G. Russell, Buck made this version of the Tanto for Cold Steel.

[jlauffer's photo]

That knife had a blade of 400 Series Stainless, not Carbon V. According to Forum member Steven65, a conflict dissolved the Buck/Cold Steel relationship rapidly and Cold Steel then shifted the Tanto's production to Japan. I'm pretty sure this occurred prior to the advent of Carbon V.

You can read a few more details in my A.G. Russell thread, but that's the gist.

-Steve

 

[jlauffer]

Yeah, I have only heard Buck mentioned in relation to the Tanto, but never knew if it was actually true or not. Sounds like it is....

 

[Toooj]

All,

This is what I know. It is just from what I have heard but my sources are pretty good.
Buck did make Cold Steel Tantos for a very short period of time, but as mentioned the Cold Steel/Buck relationship went south. Western was next but they were in financial hardship and folded. I suspect that the knife in question was probably a prototype/first sample; or a proto blade that has had a Cold Steel handle added. (this is a guess but from looking at the pictures, I see some things that I would question on a production knife, especially a Cold Steel first). I don't believe Western actually produced any knives for Cold Steel.
Cold Steel then went to Alcas for a couple of years, then Ontario and finally Camillus before moving overseas.
My sources:
1) former VP of Manufacturing: Buck Knives/ former VP of Quality and Prod Dev: Alcas
2) former Camillus Designer/ Designer for AG Russell
3) former Cold Steel consultant/ present Ontario Knife consultant
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

 

[The Whip]

All,

This is what I know. It is just from what I have heard but my sources are pretty good.
Buck did make Cold Steel Tantos for a very short period of time, but as mentioned the Cold Steel/Buck relationship went south. Western was next but they were in financial hardship and folded. I suspect that the knife in question was probably a prototype/first sample; or a proto blade that has had a Cold Steel handle added. (this is a guess but from looking at the pictures, I see some things that I would question on a production knife, especially a Cold Steel first). I don't believe Western actually produced any knives for Cold Steel.
Cold Steel then went to Alcas for a couple of years, then Ontario and finally Camillus before moving overseas.
My sources:
1) former VP of Manufacturing: Buck Knives/ former VP of Quality and Prod Dev: Alcas
2) former Camillus Designer/ Designer for AG Russell
3) former Cold Steel consultant/ present Ontario Knife consultant
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

That is excellent and informative material! You've filled in a lot of history, Paul. Thank you very much for the information!

-Steve

 

[uxo2]

Question for you Cold Steel collectors..

Is there any collector value to a
SRK in carbon V with leather sheath?
I found one and it is in nice shape and I want to strip the epoxy off the blade.

 

[nephron]

I wouldn't worry about it, we aren't talking a lot of money, strip away.

 

[The Mastiff]

Anybody have any idea what steel was used to make the "Carbon V" knives made in Japan before they moved back?

Joe

 

[KenHash]

Was the SRK ever made in Japan and marked Carbon V?
I'm only aware of the Trail Master example.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

We're discussing whether the description of a Cold Steel knife recently sold on eBay is accurate.

Here is the knife.

-Steve

The Whip -

Can you confirm that this blade (the "western" blade from post #10) - has No black / coated text ?

As the knife I mentioned in post #10 (which it seems you purchased) looked like the text was black / coated ?

I have a feeling that, at least some of these knives, seen on the internet Don't have Black text. It is just the angle of the camera.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

Toooj -

Thank you very much in advance for all of your information and clarification (I'm kinda slow at times).

Sorry, I am really trying to understand this timeline (in regards to Only the SRK and Only the Carbon V steel used by Cold Steel). Most of us (I believe) thought only Camillus made Carbon V for Cold Steel.

Just a little clarification to your (and Mike Stewart's) below timeline which was copied from another posting.

Please see questions below - some of this is obvious, but I just really want to make sure - thank you.


Here is the correct time line:

1) Cold Steel Carbon V was first produced in the Alcas Factory (Cutco and KA-BAR) Mid 1980s, Carbon V was originally 1095CV/0170-06/50100B.

A.) Cold Steel's Carbon V was produced by the Alcas Factory in the Mid 1980's ?

B.) Cold Steel's Carbon V steel composition in the mid 1980's was "1095CV/0170-06/50100B" ?

C.) Both Cutco and Ka-Bar used this same exact steel composition ?

2) Cold Steel moved to Ontario early 1990s. Carbon V started out as 1095CV/0170-06/50100B but while at Ontario, Dan Maragni removed the small amount of nickel from the formula.

A.) Cold Steel had the Ontario Factory (is this the - Ontario Knife Company OKC ?) make Carbon V in the early 1990's ?

B.) Carbon V was composition "1095CV/0170-06/50100B" in the 1980's. Then in the 1990's (do you know the exact year ?) all the nickel was removed - now became composition is "0170-06" ?

3) Cold Steel moved to Camillus approx. 1995. Carbon V stayed 0170-06 minus the nickel.

A.) 1995 approx. Cold Steel's Carbon V is now composition "0170-06" which has no nickel, being produced by Camillus - so there are ( 2 ) versions of Cold Steel's Carbon V, produced at ( 3 ) different factories ?

- - - - "1095CV/0170-06/50100B" - Alcas Factory

- - - - - "0170-06" minus [all] the nickel - Ontario Factory and the Camillus Factory


Maybe you can also clarify some of Mike Stewart's info (copied from a different post) ?

Please see questions below -

CV--Chorme Vanadium Steel and Carbon V are all the very same steel. It had been made by the hundreds of tons for many years and used by ALL the major Knife Companies for Decade.

It is 0170-6 cutlery Steel...It was developed in the 1950's by Sharon Steel specifically for Knives.

It is an enhanced 1095. They added Nickel--Chromium and a trace of Vanadium. it was a patented steel of Sharon Steel.

A.) Cold Steel's version in the 1990's is - "0170-06" minus [all] the nickel - produced by the Ontario Factory and the Camillus Factory - So slightly different than all of the other companies mentioned by Mike Stweart ?

This was the original Steel chosen by both Lynn Thomson for his Trailmaster and me for the Old Mamba. We all used it until 1988.

Sharon Steel went Bankrupt in 1988. None of us could get it and no other mill would duplicate it because the patent was still in effect. We all switched to other steels.

B.) Alcas Factory (Unmodified) and the Ontario Factory used Sharon Steel (modified as described Above) ?

A couple of years ago Case and Camillus Found a mill that would duplicate the Chemistry and they ordered a heat lot--+/_ 100,000 lbs.

C.) Camillus did not use Sharon Steel in approximately 1995 as this was a new order/heat lot (do you know the mill Camillus used) ?


Case had their portion of the heat lot rolled to pocket knife sizes and Camillius had their portion rolled to use for Lynn on his U.S. made knives and the Becker line.

D.) During this time period Case, Becker and Cold Steel were selling the same composition steel, "0170-06" minus [all] the nickel. Cold Steel called it "Carbon V" ?

Thank you So much ! I'm sure I am not the only person interested in this information and clarifications.

 

[The Mastiff]

"so there are ( 2 ) versions of Cold Steel's Carbon V"

I'd think more than that. Japan made Carbon V Cold Steel knives wouldn't be using American steel back then. Even now it's rare to see them use non Japanese steels. Carbon V is anything Cold Steel says it is. It's virtually only a name. AG Russell bought up some of the old stock from the Camillus bankruptcy sale and had Dan set up a heat treat for the steel to make knives with but even though the material and everything else is the same it isn't Carbon V. Only Cold Steel can call it that. He also made up a name for a regular cataloged steel just like Cold Steel did.

Joe

 

[jlauffer]

Carbon V is anything Cold Steel says it is.

Think there may be more to it than that, otherwise why wouldn't they still be using the Carbon V name? If it was that easy, I don't think they would have let CV die with Camillus. But then again maybe they couldn't get close enough to the "right" composition without violating patents etc, and felt that people would notice the difference, so they just said the heck with it and switched to SK-5 and then 0-1.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

. . . . Japan made Carbon V Cold Steel knives wouldn't be using American steel back then . . .

. . . . Carbon V is anything Cold Steel says it is. It's virtually only a name. Joe

Everything is possible, what actually happened needs to have facts (which I don't have) -
I believe it is possible that Cold Steel did send USA made Carbon V steel to Japan back then - do you have any information that says they did not, or just your belief (I ask because I really do want to get all of the facts / information) ? As now, (maybe then) steel made in one country is sent to another country to be produced as knives (XHP - USA steel to Taiwan, San Mai - Japan steel to Taiwan, etc)

As I understand it (I'm always willing to be corrected) - I agree that "Carbon V" is what Cold Steel called this specific composition of steel "0170-06" - and other knife companies called "0170-06" by other names. So yes, call "0170-06" what ever you want to call it.

BUT . . .

It seems that Cold Steel does not just call Any steel "Carbon V". Nor do other companies, as Mike Stewart said - "Sharon Steel went Bankrupt in 1988. None of us could get it and no other mill would duplicate it because the patent was still in effect. We all switched to other steel".

Cold Steel had to get Camillus to make the Specific steel "0170-06". Cold Steel did not just call any steel they could get as Carbon V. Mike Stewart said - "A couple of years ago Case and Camillus Found a mill that would duplicate the Chemistry and they ordered a heat lot--+/_ 100,000 lbs."

After this "heat lot" - it seems (? ? ?) no one else has made this steel "0170-06".