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NEW 4.7 Thread

Discussion in 'Survive! Knives' started by OBX351, May 30, 2016.

  1. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    Thanks for sharing this, I would have missed it otherwise. Someone in the comments on YouTube suggested he read a bit on Bladeforums to collect more information for his vid. I agree! He's definitely not the only youtuber guilty of getting quite a bit of information ALMOST right. Maybe it was strict teachers in grade school, but I can't imagine posting something publicly where I'm not sure on the accuracy of the information. Oh well.
     
  2. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    It's a pretty good review. I am not sure I agree on his all of his conclusions but he does back it up with proof. It is surprising about how much sharpness he lost after cutting rope. This and another recent S!K review concluded that the factory edge was not optimal and they both had to re-profile the knife to get an "optimal" edge. One (or both I don't remember) of them being a convex edge. Again I am not sure I agree, I've put a convex on my old 4.1 and it's crazy sharp but I prefer the factory edge for all the wood work that I do at home and in the field. Nonetheless, I am really glad they are supportive of the brand.

    Am I full of $4!t? Opening the floor to debate or confirmation...factory edge vs yours?
     
  3. Fancier

    Fancier

    Jul 1, 2012
    The factory edge is intended for Guy's vision of the knife's usage. He tests them with his edge and doesn't release them until he is happy with the durability.
    Your edge is what you like for your use of the knife. It may well do your tasks better than Guy's edge.
    On the other hand, Nathan seems to think that D3V is more heat sensitive than Survive does.
    I've read that Nathan thinks that the knife ought to be sharpened wet to prevent heat buildup on the cutting edge, while I've seen a lot of videos of Guy using a belt sander and a buffing wheel.
    I've also heard from Ellie that Survive does their sharpening at low speed and so heat buildup doesn't happen.
    There is also at least one well known Survive enthusiast in this forum that doesn't believe that sharpening builds up enough heat to draw the temper regardless of technique.
    Most of the folks that do a lot of wear resistance testing like to put their own edge on the knife to ensure consistency of results.
    I find that before I'm willing to say how durable I think a knife is I have to use it enough that I've sharpened it several times, so the factory edge doesn't matter much to me. A good factory edge saves me a bit of time the first time I sharpen the knife and then after that it is a moot point.
     
    Oyster, Silver Needle and OBX351 like this.
  4. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    I've stress tested and worked with over 20 S!Ks over the past 5 + years & I've also stood next to Guy while sharpening a bunch of knives and I totally agree. Guy was kind enough to show me how he sharpens knives and he mentioned heat generation and how it can effect temper. I also spoken with the folks at Busse about sharpening and to be careful not to generate too much heat when sharpening. I've always wondered why my old 4.1's, one from the first 4.1 run, edge has had issues over the years. It's probably from the original sharpening and the how the heat treat was, potentially, effected by the sharpener. I've sent it to Guy's to be resharpened at least 4 times and I've reprofiled it at least 3 times. It's my only S!K that I've had issues with. In the knife's defense one of the reasons I sent it back was that I did a TERRIBLE job of sharpening it. After years of stroping it now has a convex edge and it no longer has any issues. Conversely, my 7/7, again first run and original 3V, is a BEAST. Guy worked on it two times, the first time to touch up and resharpen and the second time to re-profile it after he started to change his blade profiles. That was over 4 years ago and I've batoned big seasoned oak wood, carved treated lumber, like wall rails and hardwoods and I simply have to strop it to keep it shaving sharp.

    Guy's edge profile has greatly improved over the years and it works well for me. I try to keep my edges as true as possible by only stroping my S!Ks, however this will eventually change the edge profile.
     
    Silver Needle likes this.
  5. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    What's the other review you saw or read? I'd be interested to see it.

    I sharpen and strop in an effort to keep the factory angles. I've never had a problem!
     
    OBX351 likes this.
  6. Fancier

    Fancier

    Jul 1, 2012
    Silver, stropping can be a bit tricky if you are trying to keep the edge flat because of the tendency to roll the knife as you drag it across the strop.
    If you strop for a long time the trend is to increase the edge angle at the apex.
    This isn't an entirely bad thing for a hard use knife because it tends to keep the overall cross section thin and the edge angle high enough to handle stress, and most people who strop get a really sharp polished edge that cuts well even if the edge angle is a little higher than it once was.
     
    Oyster and OBX351 like this.
  7. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    All good points :thumbsup:
     
  8. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    - this is the review I was talking about SN.
     
  9. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    But was there a second review you mentioned?
     
  10. OBX351

    OBX351 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 29, 2014
    - this is part 5 of 5 S!K reviews the review and summary

    - part 1

    - part 2

    - part 3

    - part 4
     
  11. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    Wow, thanks, @OBX351

    That is extensive! I'll have to check those out.
     
    OBX351 likes this.
  12. MDPete

    MDPete

    54
    May 12, 2016
    Easy. Mine.

    I’m a bit of a sharpening geek, but I can honestly say that I’ve never gotten a factory edge (including Guy’s) that I couldn’t improve. The reason is simple...I’m the only one that has to be happy with my edge, the factory is trying to please everyone.

    I personally like an outdoor knife with a lot of bite. I want it to dive in when I need to do some real work removing material in order to make something. That means I have to try harder to make really fine feathers for ignition of fires, but can make traps, tent stakes, weenie roasters, and notches for shelters more easily (fewer passes). I pay for it while trying to make fine feathers, but I can compensate for that with technique, and if I blow it and end up with a bunch of thicker feathers while marking the fine ones, I have to gather less of the pencil lead thin sticks that go on the fire next anyway.

    Some guys really like an edge that skates across the wood and gives them fine feathers with little to no effort at all. My prference is the opposite, and because I’m the only one I need to please, I can improve the knife’s bite without any alternate consequences.

    The other consideration for me is durability of the edge. This is often at odds with my efforts to increase the bite of the edge. I have begun going with convex edges because they are more durable, perform well in wood, and have less drag than a factory V edge. By decreasing the drag, I can increase the bite without compromising the angle and reducing the durability. Just this last weekend, I took my Cruforge 4.7 and moved the angle to 21 degrees using the work sharp grinder attachment and leaving the top wheels in the most distant positions in order to increase the slack in the belt. Then, with a very light touch, polished the edge to a near mirror. I used it for all the wood splitting (through some of the twistiest cedar I’ve ever encountered) and feathers for the family fires all weekend long with no touching up. The results were truly impressive. There was no visible edge damage and the cutting efficiency was much better. Fine feathers took more effort, but overall, I was very happy with the results.

    Guy’s factory edges are great, but he’s trying to balance durability (reduces the number of customer complaints for jacking up the edges when they do something stupid, and reduces resharpening requests from the rest of his customers), with keenness of edge (why chiral can give himself a shave with his new aquisitions), with speed of sharpening (which is what all of us here care about most b/c that means we’re getting shipping notices). In my estimation, he’s doing a great job of it. His factory edges are wonderful at achieving this balance. However, my personal preferences (and sought after balance) are slightly different. If he tried to please me, others would be unhappy. If he optimized his edges for wood or cordage, or food prep, or plastics cutting, he would likely go more toothy or fine than a lot of people want. If he mirrored out every edge, or decreased his angle, or went convex he would have to compromise the preferences of others or slow the pace of throughput (please no).

    I’m pleasing myself and can dial in on my preferred geometry with each sharpening. Factory edges are essencially a “one and done” solution that is attempting to please everyone all at once. Good luck with that.
     
  13. brute steel

    brute steel

    31
    Jan 27, 2018
    Does anyone have a Sagewood scout carry leather sheath? I'd like to see how it carries.
     
  14. Silver Needle

    Silver Needle

    Jul 14, 2014
    Can you post a pic of that well loved 4.1 and it's current edge?
     
  15. MDPete

    MDPete

    54
    May 12, 2016
    New video from that Australian guy. Interesting results from his edge geometry test on S!s low temper (not delta) 3V. Thought it was interesting. Looks like mirror it is.

     
    Oyster likes this.
  16. XtianAus

    XtianAus Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 3, 2016
    But arent you that Australian guy himself ;)
     
  17. Oyster

    Oyster Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    Interesting. Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

    Would be great if he also did videos
    1. With the new D3V
    2. With 20CV - which should fare significantly better in this type of test (rope cutting) than either 3V or S30V :D
     
  18. Psybull

    Psybull

    620
    Dec 31, 2015
    I would like to see a cutting comparison between the factory new edge vs the reprofiled one as well just to see how much of a difference there really is.
     
    ajvail18 and Oyster like this.
  19. Oyster

    Oyster Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 2, 2011
    It has often been said (about knives in general, not specific to S!K) that the HT at the edge may not always be optimal and that it can take a few sharpenings (removing more steel than mere stropping) to get to “the good stuff”...

    ETA: in this way, I suppose, better performance after a new knife has been reprofiled could either be the result of the new profile indeed being better than the original factory one or that sufficient material has finally been removed to expose “better” steel...
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
  20. MDPete

    MDPete

    54
    May 12, 2016
    Promise I’m not. Just thought his last two posts were good.
     

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