Bad Nocturnal Knives Order

[craytab]

I don't expect to persuade anyone of anything. That's not what this is about.

So what is this:

Comparing Nocturnal to another bigger brand isn't realistic. We are in no way the same. We have a long wait for knives and your order was moving along just longer than expected. You got it at 50% off and you'd have got a free knife on top of that that would have gone out with your order (no waiting). Quite a few people have posted on Instagram about the free knives I've already shipped, or the lengths we've gone to to compensate customers for the wait. Again, things don't go right sometimes, but I've always taken care of the customers when an order goes long. Just as in your case, you got hundreds of dollars off of a knife, and because you had to wait longer than I expected you would have got another hundreds of dollars of free stuff. That doesn't make the issue go away or make it a perfect situation, but it shows what we've always been about.

And that's easily checked out. There are many many posts on our Instagram account as well as many of our customers IG accounts showing the level we go to to make our customers happy. We will continue to do that. We'll have the rest of the refunds taken care of soon and even the refund folks will still get what they ordered to compensate for the issues.

This is what I read "if you would have just waited longer I would have given you free stuff that you should have been happy with. But not now so there".

Stop the excuses. Refund the money. End of story.

The more you post the worse this looks.

 

[Pittknife]

Comparing Nocturnal to another bigger brand isn't realistic. We are in no way the same. We have a long wait for knives and your order was moving along just longer than expected. You got it at 50% off and you'd have got a free knife on top of that that would have gone out with your order (no waiting). Quite a few people have posted on Instagram about the free knives I've already shipped, or the lengths we've gone to to compensate customers for the wait. Again, things don't go right sometimes, but I've always taken care of the customers when an order goes long. Just as in your case, you got hundreds of dollars off of a knife, and because you had to wait longer than I expected you would have got another hundreds of dollars of free stuff. That doesn't make the issue go away or make it a perfect situation, but it shows what we've always been about.

And that's easily checked out. There are many many posts on our Instagram account as well as many of our customers IG accounts showing the level we go to to make our customers happy. We will continue to do that. We'll have the rest of the refunds taken care of soon and even the refund folks will still get what they ordered to compensate for the issues.

For once could you stop lying. There are literally a dozen people that have asked you for refunds in the last few months and they have not received it. So WTF are you talking about. I also know you changed your personal name to try and escape from some collections, so just stop the lying. You owe a lot more than just customers money.

And stop the BS about hand made when you send your knives out to be waterjetted, that's not handmade, someone else is making the main parts for you. Waterjetting allows you not to have to spot the holes and gives you the critical hole location. That process is a developed skill and one of the most difficult things to do in a handmade knife, when someone else does it for you, it means you didn't handmake it.

 

[Pittknife]

And here is one of your other lies:

"Once all the refunds are out, or orders are completed that will be all the persuasion necessary. We appreciate everyone that's hung in there, and the folks that have been refunded will get they're order shipped too. Like I said, we just want to get all this done just like everyone else does and that's what we're trying to do."

"As far as money goes, like I said above, anyone that wants a refund will get it, has gotten it, or has received what they ordered."

Paypal refund has takes less than 30 seconds. Even if Paypal somehow magically messed up one refund, what does that have to do with all the other. There are a lot of people for months asking you for a refund, where is it. Coming on here to post is the same pattern you have done for months/years now and ask for more orders in your pyramid scheme.

 

[chainring]

I'm just waiting for the overdue DOLL necker run, and not out a lot of money, so there's that. However, Gene has never snapped at anyone, gotten profane or abusive or over reacted defensively that I've seen. Every response has been measured and matter of fact. Those are not the characteristics of someone who is dishonest. At this point, I believe that he just got too many orders on the books and had material/supplier problems at just the wrong time, in conjunction with what sounds like some family events that would have distracted and possibly disheartened him. As a result, he's just fantastically behind. It serves as a lesson on not letting the order list get too long (I won't take orders anymore) and not taking money up front (I can see how massive runs of water jet and/or materials/production would tempt a maker to find some funding and ask for payment up front to make it possible, but it's just too dangerous to me.) Other makers (Hoback comes to mind) have had some pretty long delays due to shops/suppliers not doing things correctly and even having to turn midtechs into near customs in order to get them finished, but because of their clear communication no one has ever gotten the impression they were being dishonest.
Anyway, at this point I think he's an honest man trying to work his way out of a mess and spending more time in the shop than answering emails and phones, regrettably that lack of communication just makes people more nervous. I wouldn't know him if I met him and never dealt with Nocturnal before ordering a Necker last year, but his responses and more importantly, the TONE of his responses seem to indicate to me that he is in earnest. I hope I'm not wrong, and I recognize how frustrating this must be for folks who have waited longer and/or have more invested. Nocturnal has always made some really neat stuff, and I'm hoping they can salvage this situation and continue making knives.

 

[Adian]

Comparing Nocturnal to another bigger brand isn't realistic. We are in no way the same. We have a long wait for knives and your order was moving along just longer than expected. You got it at 50% off and you'd have got a free knife on top of that that would have gone out with your order (no waiting). Quite a few people have posted on Instagram about the free knives I've already shipped, or the lengths we've gone to to compensate customers for the wait. Again, things don't go right sometimes, but I've always taken care of the customers when an order goes long. Just as in your case, you got hundreds of dollars off of a knife, and because you had to wait longer than I expected you would have got another hundreds of dollars of free stuff. That doesn't make the issue go away or make it a perfect situation, but it shows what we've always been about.

And that's easily checked out. There are many many posts on our Instagram account as well as many of our customers IG accounts showing the level we go to to make our customers happy. We will continue to do that. We'll have the rest of the refunds taken care of soon and even the refund folks will still get what they ordered to compensate for the issues.

It was not a comparison because it would not be fair to you to compare you to them because it's like comparing minor league (NK) to major league (Busse).

The response was to be indicative that it's not about the money, it's not a lot, it's the principal of it. I drop much more than what you owe me on a regular basis on blades.

All I want is for you to honor your word, and yes when I see it then I will believe it, and then I will be done.

I hope you have learned a good lesson from this, but even if you are able to dig yourself out, I can't see that I would ever purchase from you again regardless of how much I like your designs.

 

[brancron]

However, Gene has never snapped at anyone, gotten profane or abusive or over reacted defensively that I've seen. Every response has been measured and matter of fact. Those are not the characteristics of someone who is dishonest.

I disagree completely. The fact that none of his long-winded posts directly and squarely address the elephant in the room--namely, immediately refunding those who have asked, by whatever means necessary--is a clear sign to me that this person is dishonest. If someone asks for a refund, you refund them immediately. If PayPal won't allow refunds for whatever reason, you refund them via a different means. If all else fails, you send them cash in an envelope. He must do this IMMEDIATELY. If he were honest this would be his absolute and only priority until the refund job was completed.

 

[Pittknife]

I'm done wasting my time with this, I have done my knife community duty and try to warn people about this guy. If you have read all this and somehow still want to deal with him that's on you.

Here is the last post I'll make that also highlights this guy's mentality and lying: now it is some conspiracy from a vendor and he is yet again the victim, not the perpetrator. Again, I'm speechless.

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[chainring]

I disagree completely. The fact that none of his long-winded posts directly and squarely address the elephant in the room--namely, immediately refunding those who have asked, by whatever means necessary--is a clear sign to me that this person is dishonest. If someone asks for a refund, you refund them immediately. If PayPal won't allow refunds for whatever reason, you refund them via a different means. If all else fails, you send them cash in an envelope. He must do this IMMEDIATELY. If he were honest this would be his absolute and only priority until the refund job was completed.

I understand that perspective and agree with it completely, but I wonder if the guy has the MONEY for refunds at this point.

 

[brancron]

I understand that perspective and agree with it completely, but I wonder if the guy has the MONEY for refunds at this point.

If he doesn't have the money to refund he needs to be upfront about it. This happened to me with a pretty well known maker/modifier: I had been waiting well over a year, so I eventually just asked for a refund. The person responded in a timely fashion and told me he was really sorry, but that he didn't have the money right then (he actually told me exactly how much money was in his bank account). I was grateful for his honesty and told him it wasn't a big deal, we'll revisit it later. Within a couple weeks, he had gotten the money and he refunded me without any more fuss. That's how it should be done.

 

[NocturnalKnives]

I've posted many times that refunds are going out and are getting processed. Some are processed through PayPal, some outside of PayPal and all at different times. I am addressing refunds. They are going out.

There is no conspiracy. I'm posting relevant information to your comment on IG. I've already posted everything I need to post. People can believe or disbelieve what they wish. I've put out over $13,000 in refunds since Christmas and there's a few more to go out. We're working on it. I'm sorry it's not as fast as some would like, and I wish it could be faster, but we're making it happen as quickly as we can.

Also, I wasn't saying that "if you'd have waited longer you would have got free stuff," but words on a screen can be interpreted many different ways.bim sorry you took it that way. If you look further down that post you will see that is says clearly that even the folks that got refunds will have their order shipped.

I'm moving as fast as I can to make everything good and as said before we'll do everything possible to make even the most upset people happy by the time it's all said and done.

 

[Thisisaname]

I obviously don't know anymore than anyone else but I think it would be pretty rare for this to turn out to be a scam, just seems crazy for someone to make such a praised product and then throw all of that away for a "grab and run". Of course, I know nothing and since I love knives I really hope this all pans out for everyone.

 

[NocturnalKnives]

We had a big organization and communication problem before all this. It was never really a problem until things compounded recently. That has been a big time suck. Between bad books, sorting through email, dealing with PayPal, and moving money around it has taken much longer than it should have for a few customers. I've put this out there and been honest about it in every response I've posted anywhere. Some refunds went out a couple thousand dollars at a time. I can't just make that money magically appear, especially since you can clearly see we haven't been selling knives based on the last knife posted on our website.

As far as the cutting or Waterjet debate it's really pretty simple. I've been making knives a long time. I've cut many blanks On a band saw, then a manual mill, etc. they don't offer any advantage to the knife or the customer (actually the opposite). It offers no, repeat no advantage to the customer. Water cutting the blanks offers many advantages to the customer. If your talking about locating holes being a skill, that was true 70-100 years ago, but based on your IG page you also use CAD to design your folders. You locate your holes there then print templates for your material cut outs on the band saw, correct? If not, then why check for function of your design in CAD. CAD = Holes located. I make all of our knives, design all of our knives, do all the 2D and 3D CAD for our knives, make all of our knives function, etc. The only thing that happens during water jet is a 2D part gets cut out of a 2D sheet of material off of my CAD designs. We don't have people making designs for us. You still have to grind locks, fit locks, grind blades, bevels, handles, profile, set detents, drill detent holes, set stop pins, manually mill features and counterbores, and in and on. You could argue all year about it, just like I can argue why tip down isn't as good as tip up.

There was an argument much like this a few years ago in the knife community. If a you made a knife via stock removal it wasn't really hand made, especially if you used a jig to grind. The argument was a blank had to be forged to be hand made. Same with Damascus. Same argument in the community about "hand ground customs," and "midtechs" and, tip up or tip down, and so on. I do just as much as you do by hand in my shop except sit behind a bandsaw. As an engineer I would think that you could see the many different advantages aesthetically, and through function, strength, and efficiency of having a lock bar on a folder water cut. If we're arguing about having fixed blade blanks cut then it's ridiculous. Drilling holes and forcing material through a band saw isn't a skill. What you do with the knife after you get the blank cut is the only part that requires even a little skill. Anyone can be taught to make a knife. It's not magic. You're not a part of some special part of humanity because you can make a knife. They've been around for centuries.

If I was CNC'ing ever piece to completion I could see the problem. Some knives are made that way and they cost twice, to three times more than our knives.

 

[MattBlue]

We had a big organization and communication problem before all this. It was never really a problem until things compounded recently. That has been a big time suck. Between bad books, sorting through email, dealing with PayPal, and moving money around it has taken much longer than it should have for a few customers. I've put this out there and been honest about it in every response I've posted anywhere. Some refunds went out a couple thousand dollars at a time. I can't just make that money magically appear, especially since you can clearly see we haven't been selling knives based on the last knife posted on our website.

As far as the cutting or Waterjet debate it's really pretty simple. I've been making knives a long time. I've cut many blanks On a band saw, then a manual mill, etc. they don't offer any advantage to the knife or the customer (actually the opposite). It offers no, repeat no advantage to the customer. Water cutting the blanks offers many advantages to the customer. If your talking about locating holes being a skill, that was true 70-100 years ago, but based on your IG page you also use CAD to design your folders. You locate your holes there then print templates for your material cut outs on the band saw, correct? If not, then why check for function of your design in CAD. CAD = Holes located. I make all of our knives, design all of our knives, do all the 2D and 3D CAD for our knives, make all of our knives function, etc. The only thing that happens during water jet is a 2D part gets cut out of a 2D sheet of material off of my CAD designs. We don't have people making designs for us. You still have to grind locks, fit locks, grind blades, bevels, handles, profile, set detents, drill detent holes, set stop pins, manually mill features and counterbores, and in and on. You could argue all year about it, just like I can argue why tip down isn't as good as tip up.

There was an argument much like this a few years ago in the knife community. If a you made a knife via stock removal it wasn't really hand made, especially if you used a jig to grind. The argument was a blank had to be forged to be hand made. Same with Damascus. Same argument in the community about "hand ground customs," and "midtechs" and, tip up or tip down, and so on. I do just as much as you do by hand in my shop except sit behind a bandsaw. As an engineer I would think that you could see the many different advantages aesthetically, and through function, strength, and efficiency of having a lock bar on a folder water cut. If we're arguing about having fixed blade blanks cut then it's ridiculous. Drilling holes and forcing material through a band saw isn't a skill. What you do with the knife after you get the blank cut is the only part that requires even a little skill. Anyone can be taught to make a knife. It's not magic. You're not a part of some special part of humanity because you can make a knife. They've been around for centuries.

If I was CNC'ing ever piece to completion I could see the problem. Some knives are made that way and they cost twice, to three times more than our knives.

Could you tell us what the refund process is exactly, why it takes so long?

 

[Thisisaname]

Man, maybe it is karma for my last comment but my knife arrived today. I'm still at work, so I don't have my hands on it yet but I'm very excited.

 

[wolfmann601]

$13,000 in refunds???

Business at it's best......................................nah

 

[Dgrant09]

Man, maybe it is karma for my last comment but my knife arrived today. I'm still at work, so I don't have my hands on it yet but I'm very excited.

Good for you man - hope you like it! Gives me hope that people are finally getting blades.

 

[Thisisaname]

Good for you man - hope you like it! Gives me hope that people are finally getting blades.

Yea, I'm pretty relieved. Here's a pic my wife sent:

 

[Adian]

It does look cool, I will admit. Maybe in a few years if the reputation and issues get repaired of the business b

 

[Pittknife]

We had a big organization and communication problem before all this. It was never really a problem until things compounded recently. That has been a big time suck. Between bad books, sorting through email, dealing with PayPal, and moving money around it has taken much longer than it should have for a few customers. I've put this out there and been honest about it in every response I've posted anywhere. Some refunds went out a couple thousand dollars at a time. I can't just make that money magically appear, especially since you can clearly see we haven't been selling knives based on the last knife posted on our website.

As far as the cutting or Waterjet debate it's really pretty simple. I've been making knives a long time. I've cut many blanks On a band saw, then a manual mill, etc. they don't offer any advantage to the knife or the customer (actually the opposite). It offers no, repeat no advantage to the customer. Water cutting the blanks offers many advantages to the customer. If your talking about locating holes being a skill, that was true 70-100 years ago, but based on your IG page you also use CAD to design your folders. You locate your holes there then print templates for your material cut outs on the band saw, correct? If not, then why check for function of your design in CAD. CAD = Holes located. I make all of our knives, design all of our knives, do all the 2D and 3D CAD for our knives, make all of our knives function, etc. The only thing that happens during water jet is a 2D part gets cut out of a 2D sheet of material off of my CAD designs. We don't have people making designs for us. You still have to grind locks, fit locks, grind blades, bevels, handles, profile, set detents, drill detent holes, set stop pins, manually mill features and counterbores, and in and on. You could argue all year about it, just like I can argue why tip down isn't as good as tip up.

There was an argument much like this a few years ago in the knife community. If a you made a knife via stock removal it wasn't really hand made, especially if you used a jig to grind. The argument was a blank had to be forged to be hand made. Same with Damascus. Same argument in the community about "hand ground customs," and "midtechs" and, tip up or tip down, and so on. I do just as much as you do by hand in my shop except sit behind a bandsaw. As an engineer I would think that you could see the many different advantages aesthetically, and through function, strength, and efficiency of having a lock bar on a folder water cut. If we're arguing about having fixed blade blanks cut then it's ridiculous. Drilling holes and forcing material through a band saw isn't a skill. What you do with the knife after you get the blank cut is the only part that requires even a little skill. Anyone can be taught to make a knife. It's not magic. You're not a part of some special part of humanity because you can make a knife. They've been around for centuries.

If I was CNC'ing ever piece to completion I could see the problem. Some knives are made that way and they cost twice, to three times more than our knives.

The fact that you don't understand the difference between me cutting and building everything on my knife in my shop by myself except screws and the pivot blank versus you sending your work out for someone to do says a lot. I use CAD to do simulations for moments of inertia, finite element analysis for durability, and CG studies. CAD doesn't make knives, I use my CAD models to print a 3D template which aids ME in locating the geometry and positions. I don't use my CAD to send to someone to do the important work on and assemble, that's what you do. I have no problem with anyone using CAD or CNC, I have a problem with you 1. lying all the time about everything, 2. calling your knives handmade in your shop when you clearly outsource the majority of the work.

Building a knife from scratch instead of farming the work out offers many advantages to the customer that you can't understand.
1. You say you are in this mess because your vendors screwed you, guess what? I've never had that issue because I build my own knives.

2. I have never taken money up front for a knife and then turn around and used that money for whatever I want, like you obviously have, otherwise you would have the money to pay the refunds. That is quoted from you saying "magically make the money appear". Can you imagine going to your bank and they told you sorry, I spent your money. That's on you.

3. I know the tolerances of waterjet and the kerf issue, I am a real engineer and have used almost all the technology in mass production out there. If you don't know the flaws and why so many people have problems with waterjetting than you shouldn't be making knives.

4. My knives have much better tolerances because I do all the work and I see each problem in the knives, not rely on someone else.

5. My customers are not piggy banks to me. While I am new, my books are closed with more request than I could possibly make in years. I get money thrown at me, and not your $600-800 but thousands and I always refuse because I know I cannot make them their knives in a timely manner. I've had people offer me $1k to get a spot in my books and also have refused. Mainly because I'm not sure my knife warrants that and my number one goal is to look out for my customers. You are a lying POS that takes money upfront when you know you can't deliver and then lies about everything and does not fulfill your word.

Lastly, the only reason I give a crap is because a number of the people you have not refunded are acquaintances of mine and I'm not afraid to call out anyone. Don't compare your knife to anything I do, I build my knives with one singular purpose, to make my customer happy and give them enjoyment. You make knives as part of your pyramid scheme.

 

[JohnWE]

Boom...