"Old Knives"

Zombie.
Some of the high end collections have unused knives- these are immense finds.

A lot of knives have been cleaned slightly.

Some knives have been over cleaned to the degree - so where the collectors who go for the best of the best - will go past the over cleaned knives because their value and original finish is now gone.

Charlie worded it very well the other day when he said that when a knife has been cleaned or buffed - it takes the finish off the knife from the original workers who ground - shaped- polished the knife in the ordinal production of the manufacturers of that Knife.

A well cared for used knife that is in honest original condition- one that still has fairly full to full blades is way bette than a polished shiny example.
 
This is an amazing thread.
Now for a sincere question.

The condition of almost all of the knives here point toward a few possibilities (IMHO)
1) Many of these knives were sealed in air tight containers
2) They were well cared for, and basically unused their entire life
3) They may have had some minor "re-finishing" ie: sanding/polishing (to a very minor degree)
4) Almost everyone in this thread is luckier than the guy that won 34 lotteries

Given that most of these knives have carbon steel blades how did they survive? (that's my question)

For the couple of knives that I have posted, it's pure luck (and not good living). Most of my old knives came from my stepfather and he tried to be scrupulous about their care, but he wasn't that dedicated. Plus he lived on a beach. I have boxes of rusted knives/knife parts ("Here, boy, you like working on things. See if you can open this knife.") You won't see those knives. I have since learned that cleaning up a knife is not always a prudent financial move, but I do try to prevent deterioration. Wiping down a knife with a rag seems to prevent rust from setting in or spreading. I have set aside a few old classics for true EDC and those I clean and oil. I am proud to continue their useful lives. A lot of the knives that he gave me appear to have had little or no use, and I hope this light wiping keeps them clean. The custom knives that I have go into humidity controlled gun safes, but there aren't that many. Most of the knives sleep in cigar boxes, a couple of glass display cases, as well as tackle boxes. They get wiped down with a clean rag when I get a chance, between hunting and fishing. They don't make my wife any happier.
 
Charlie worded it very well the other day when he said that when a knife has been cleaned or buffed - it takes the finish off the knife from the original workers who ground - shaped- polished the knife in the ordinal production of the manufacturers of that Knife.

A well cared for used knife that is in honest original condition- one that still has fairly full to full blades is way bette than a polished shiny example.

Immensely valuable information.
I like the fact that the original workers "history" plays a role in this statement.

I'm sure this has been quoted a Jillion times... "The blood stays on the blade."
Thank you sir!

Thank you Duck,
I've been buying quite a few "polished" knives on the Flea. In a way I don't mind because I'm staying at or around 50 bucks.

However I have spotted a few that are NOT polished, and have spent a bit more. The however is, I have NOT bought any "ugly" knives. To me that means...sharpened!
I've been looking at the blade(s) more than the knife itself. Does blade condition bear the fruit of value?
 
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This is an amazing thread.
Now for a sincere question.

The condition of almost all of the knives here point toward a few possibilities (IMHO)
1) Many of these knives were sealed in air tight containers
2) They were well cared for, and basically unused their entire life
3) They may have had some minor "re-finishing" ie: sanding/polishing (to a very minor degree)
4) Almost everyone in this thread is luckier than the guy that won 34 lotteries

Given that most of these knives have carbon steel blades how did they survive? (that's my question)

In the right conditions you can store a carbon steel blade for a century with little or no pepper spots, especially if they get an oil coating occasionally. For example, I live in a dry climate and have knives that have been sitting around for 20 years or more that look like the day I got them.

Many of the knives on flea bay that look bright and shiny have had the snot buffed out of them. I've seen a number of them in this thread. There are easy ways to tell - look at the tang to see if the stamp has been partially buffed out (often you can see pitting around a very bright and shiny tang stamp), and look at the transition lines between the flat of the blade and the swedge, spine, or tang. In the old days they used large wood wheels with fine emery (for glaze) or iron oxide powder (for crocus) coating on walrus hide (or they used hard felt wheels with the appropriate abrasive). That gives crisp transition lines. The people who buff knives these days will use soft rag wheels to buff, and it gives rounded transition lines.
 
I have worked with polishing all sorts of metals/objects over the years, and I understand the "clues" you describe.
I was just uncertain as to how these aspects applied to knife collecting.

I believe the pattern I am learning is that knife collecting is very similar to coin collecting. Not that I'm too hip there either but... :oops:

As a side note, I live a couple hundred yards off the Gulf of Mexico in North Florida. The climate here is basically a metal destroyer.
I keep Silica gell pouches like old ladies keep hard candies.
 
Cool discussion above :thumbsup: - I have found a few "sleepers" - those knives essentially never sharpened & lightly used if at all and probably forgotten for one reason or another in a drawer where the conditions were right - when you see original polish lines, sharp transitions of the swedges and shine from original polish in the liner it is like hitting "gold" :) ....

On another note - here is a fairly different old knife to add to the thread...


Billings & Spencer Co (1869-1963) though well-known for their tools and in particular wrenches made a few knives and only between the years of 1890-1914. Three in particular were designed and patented by Charles Billings during that time frame. I was lucky enough to find one of those knives below – a Combination Sliding Knife with 3 different Screw Driver heads called a Sportsmans knife and advertised as such in a 1903 issue of Forest and Stream magazine. For those interested I thought I would share the following history most of which was from the following link to whom historical credit is given (alloy-artifacts.org) - http://alloy-artifacts.org/billings-spencer-company.html

Historical Summary:

Billings & Spencer began in 1869 as the Roper Sporting Arms Company, a partnership of Charles E. Billings and Christopher Spencer. Both founders were notable inventors (Charles invented a Combination Bowie Knife-Pistol in 1868 which was patented), and Billings in particular was one of the pioneers of the drop forging process for hand tools and the Drop Forging machine itself. The company’s early products were drop-forgings for the arms and
sewing machine industries.

The company was reorganized as the Billings & Spencer Company in 1873 (Hartford CT), and began producing open-end wrenches and other tools shortly after this. Some products were based on designs developed and patented by Charles E. Billings, and the company also licensed designs from other inventors. Adjustable wrenches of many kinds and uses were a particular specialty during the latter part of the 19th century, By the early 20th century
Billings & Spencer had become one of the largest tool makers, in addition to being a dominant force in the drop forging industry. In the 1900s the company began to stumble from its leadership position and in 1962 Billings was acquired by the Crescent Niagara corporation, a holding company that had previously
purchased Crescent Tools.

Billings & Spencer Sliding Combination Knife - Sportsmans (1896)

B&S knives are not easy finds at all and quite rare (all made with metal knurled handles), and were made between 1890 and 1914 – my understanding is that there were only 3 patented knives – a 1892 Sliding Knife, 1896 patented combination Sliding Knife marked with 1892 & 1896 patent dates (and a variety of other combination tools as part of patent and a Butterfly Knife patented in 1908). Pure luck landed me this one. This knife was their second knife produced and was a combination sliding knife with tool accessories and advertised for sportsmen in Forest and Stream magazine in 1903 (see below attachment). It has a knurled metal handle which was indeed found on all their knives – never any other handle materials to my knowledge.

Basically the knife and tools are opened by a pin and spring mechanism that locks all into the handle. The pin is pulled up and the whole inner structure called the arm slides outside the handle where one can choose their blade. Subsequently the remaining tools are folded back inside the main structural foundation and slide back into handle where the sliding pin locks it all in place. The blade found on this knife is exactly the same found on the 1892 patented Sliding Knife. This knife is one of the variations found in the patent 554,046 – 3 screw drivers and one blade. (Link to patent: http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?id=12531 ) …

Anyway something abit unique and different but probably 110-120 years old.

Thanks for looking!!
Lee

Forest and Stream Ad 1903
0BMICEr.jpg


6MPBUrm.jpg


thHF5dD.jpg


YQfqJ96.jpg


V8g2P49.jpg


3v9JewG.jpg


BdWNIBW.jpg


wpJ1bTo.jpg


jRrCoUW.jpg


Almost forgot the stamp on handle:

fsFbEnK.jpg


 
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How COOL is that!

Some steel wool, and sandpaper will clean that right up! o_O

Sorry guys... couldn't be helped. It's like Terrets, and gout combined.
 
Cool discussion above :thumbsup: - I have found a few "sleepers" - those knives essentially never sharpened & lightly used if at all and probably forgotten for one reason or another in a drawer where the conditions were right - when you see original polish lines, sharp transitions of the swedges and shine from original polish in the liner it is like hitting "gold" :) ....

On another note - here is a fairly different old knife to add to the thread...


Billings & Spencer Co (1869-1963) though well-known for their tools and in particular wrenches made a few knives and only between the years of 1890-1914. Three in particular were designed and patented by Charles Billings during that time frame. I was lucky enough to find one of those knives below – a Combination Sliding Knife with 3 different Screw Driver heads called a Sportsmans knife and advertised as such in a 1903 issue of Forest and Stream magazine. For those interested I thought I would share the following history most of which was from the following link to whom historical credit is given (alloy-artifacts.org) - http://alloy-artifacts.org/billings-spencer-company.html

Historical Summary:

Billings & Spencer began in 1869 as the Roper Sporting Arms Company, a partnership of Charles E. Billings and Christopher Spencer. Both founders were notable inventors (Charles invented a Combination Bowie Knife-Pistol in 1868 which was patented), and Billings in particular was one of the pioneers of the drop forging process for hand tools and the Drop Forging machine itself. The company’s early products were drop-forgings for the arms and
sewing machine industries.

The company was reorganized as the Billings & Spencer Company in 1873 (Hartford CT), and began producing open-end wrenches and other tools shortly after this. Some products were based on designs developed and patented by Charles E. Billings, and the company also licensed designs from other inventors. Adjustable wrenches of many kinds and uses were a particular specialty during the latter part of the 19th century, By the early 20th century
Billings & Spencer had become one of the largest tool makers, in addition to being a dominant force in the drop forging industry. In the 1900s the company began to stumble from its leadership position and in 1962 Billings was acquired by the Crescent Niagara corporation, a holding company that had previously
purchased Crescent Tools.

Billings & Spencer Sliding Combination Knife - Sportsmans (1896)

B&S knives are not easy finds at all and quite rare (all made with metal knurled handles), and were made between 1890 and 1914 – my understanding is that there were only 3 patented knives – a 1896 Sliding Knife, 1896 patented combination Sliding Knife marked with 1892 & 1896 patent dates (and a variety of other combination tools as part of patent and a Butterfly Knife patented in 1908). Pure luck landed me this one. This knife was their second knife produced and was a combination sliding knife with tool accessories and advertised for sportsmen in Forest and Stream magazine in 1903 (see below attachment). It has a knurled metal handle which was indeed found on all their knives – never any other handle materials to my knowledge.

Basically the knife and tools are opened by a pin and spring mechanism that locks all into the handle. The pin is pulled up and the whole inner structure called the arm slides outside the handle where one can choose their blade. Subsequently the remaining tools are folded back inside the main structural foundation and slide back into handle where the sliding pin locks it all in place. The blade found on this knife is exactly the same found on the 1892 patented Sliding Knife. This knife is one of the variations found in the patent 554,046 – 3 screw drivers and one blade. (Link to patent: http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?id=12531 ) …

Anyway something abit unique and different but probably 110-120 years old.

Thanks for looking!!
Lee

Forest and Stream Ad 1903
0BMICEr.jpg


6MPBUrm.jpg


thHF5dD.jpg


YQfqJ96.jpg


V8g2P49.jpg


3v9JewG.jpg


BdWNIBW.jpg


wpJ1bTo.jpg


jRrCoUW.jpg


Almost forgot the stamp on handle:

fsFbEnK.jpg



Very interesting and unusual knife tool!!!
Charles Billings filed patents on several unique knives including the Bowie-Knife pistol which you mentioned.
Billings also got off to a pretty good start as he apprenticed for Sam Colt in the 1850s.
 
I started collecting Robeson knives in earnest in 1988. I very quickly acquired my first copy of the Dewey and Lavonna Ferguson knife collectors book that included The Robeson Cutlery Company. I've worn out two and I'm working on number three.

Ever since getting that book, I have wanted a Robeson Father and Son Pocket Knife Set, which was a boxed pair of strawberry bone handled knives, a 622026 two blade jack for dad and a 622319 two blade senator for the son.

I have never seen one of the sets in all these years.

I did buy mint examples of the two knives and have kept them all this time, hoping that someday, I would come across an empty box for the set.

Never happened.

I had actually stopped buying Robeson knives and have been selling them instead.

But, this past week, A Robeson Father and Son Pocket Knife Set showed up on Ebay.

My almost thirty year desire and quest for that set overwhelmed my previous resolve and I bought it.

Roughly, this would date 1948 to 1959.







 
Beautiful knives, and a great story to go with them.

I really like the knife in North Shore's post as well. I think this is the era/vintage I would like to "target" in my newly found "career".

Too bad I won't have the decades of experience but I know reading on THIS forum will help fill in the blanks.
Thank goodness for button pushin' talkie boxes... :thumbsup:
 
North Shore. Real Nice Clarke Bros. my friend.

Charlie - for all this time that you have been collecting and contributing to the Knife World - I am so glad to see you get a long time wish. Awesome stuff :thumbsup:
 
Wonderful Whittler North Shore!

Way to go Charlie! Persistence and vigilant looking has paid off for you:thumbsup: Very attractive and in high grade condition both the packaging and knives!!
 
Now I have a problem. I've been saving two mint knives with matching strawberry bone handles for twenty years or more, to put in a box if I ever found one. Both are better than the knives that arrived yesterday, which are not mint, regardless of how nice they look in that photo.

So, do I swap them out or not?
 
Northshore, I can see why. I expect that stag is potassium permanganate, considering it's age.

Charlie,
Really glad for you.
 
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Now I have a problem. I've been saving two mint knives with matching strawberry bone handles for twenty years or more, to put in a box if I ever found one. Both are better than the knives that arrived yesterday, which are not mint, regardless of how nice they look in that photo.

So, do I swap them out or not?

I would swap them out. You can't be sure the two in it were original to the case. I don't see any reason not to.
 
I would swap them out. You can't be sure the two in it were original to the case. I don't see any reason not to.
If you want to swap them I think Mark's argument is as good as any I can think of.
 
Congrats Charlie. I've always admired your dedication for collecting all things Robeson. I would swap them out.
 
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