On clones, by genre, a thesis

[sabre cat]

....If CRKT did not exist, those makers would not have made a sale off me ever because those prices are way above the ceiling I have for such purchases, and I would most likely have given up on the purchase (if there were no clones) or gone for a cheap clone. Everyone has that red line in prices where we will no longer consider buying something once that line is crossed, no matter how desirable it is.

Yep, but my red line will vary depending upon the knife but I normally stay below one hundred clams and have never exceded $160. I will be breaking that barrier next year when I officially drop off the rolls of the IRR and retire from military service. I will celebrate by buying myself a CRK Insingo. At least that's the plan for now.

As for CRKT, that was years ago and I was very lucky to find a couple that still meet my needs very well. A M16-02 tanto and the Marzitelli Prowler.

 

[adamlau]

^^^ A hearty future forward welcome to the CRK family

 

[AtechReviews]

If clones can damage the hobby, what can happen when we attack the morals of our fellow members?

Couldn't agree more. That hurts the knife community more than any clone out there, cause it drives people away from the hobby and the knife industry could loose thousands of $ as a result of a single forum post.
I mean, some of us already have pretty thick skins and can argue it out, but take this thread for example: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ganzo-as-a-gateway-drug.1503784/
This kid just wrote a post about him trying a Ganzo and wanting to buy a genuine PM2 and got bashed about the Ganzo.
Now he is like: "scr#w this hobby, I'd rather go play CS:GO or something".
Do you think he will buy that PM2? I highly doubt that ($125.97 lost).
If he would become a collector that's thousands in loss.
Think about that.

 

[Knicked Digits]

Couldn't agree more. That hurts the knife community more than any clone out there, cause it drives people away from the hobby and the knife industry could loose thousands of $ as a result of a single forum post.
I mean, some of us already have pretty thick skins and can argue it out, but take this thread for example: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ganzo-as-a-gateway-drug.1503784/
This kid just wrote a post about him trying a Ganzo and wanting to buy a genuine PM2 and got bashed about the Ganzo.
Now he is like: "scr#w this hobby, I'd rather go play CS:GO or something".
Do you think he will buy that PM2? I highly doubt that ($125.97 lost).
If he would become a collector that's thousands in loss.
Think about that.

This is the big problem I see here and from an inexperienced/ novice's point of view. While most members on this forum are willing to drop constructive criticism and lead that person down a positive path there are others that seem to just go into attack mode if it's not brand or not less than a certain price tag. If an actual newb is looking for advice or speaking out of pure ignorance then mocking and ridiculing then doesn't do anybody any good.

I realize that there are members who have been here long enough and have probably seen so many of these posts that it just drives them crazy to see someone supported a clone and they see red. But to just attack on principal of clones can be counter productive unless it's a troll (get dems fellas outta here!). These are the members that seem like they'd be better off skipping on those thread and talking to the guys that are at their level and leave the new guys to the ones that can offer helpful and guiding advice. Everybody has to start somewhere and it's not always the best or "right" way either.

 

[palonej]

That thread you posted is a bad example, because I'm almost positive it was a troll post.
Read his OP.
Here 2 years and aware of the stance of most.
Joe

 

[Neko2]

It's funny that I was just thinking about this the other day. Specifically about the 110, stockman, barlow, trapper etc. and how we've gotten to the point where those are just "patterns" that anyone can make to their hearts content but a similar blade shape or overall profile and people get very agitated.

I get the various laws and how there are protections afforded by them but when looking at knife history it would seem that protectionism is somewhat a recent development.

 

[PURPLEDC]

How do you figure? More often than not, our opinions are on the same page or very close to it but, this time, I have to disagree.

Unless I have missed something, the only place in the rules that list clones, counterfeits, etc. is the Exchange. The only other area that I find anything close is Site Rules, Section 7. That section, as you know, has to do with keeping things legal. Not circumventing the law of the land, trying to get around import laws, and such. No real reference to clones, etc.. Is there anything else in the forum rules (other than what I listed above) that limits our discussions about clones and counterfeit products? If so, I don't know about it. I don't see how they are off limits except as listed above.

I think you and I can agree that counterfeits can damage the knife industry. Can we agree clones, copies, etc. probably do very little that's positive to help the industry or our hobby? Maybe they act as a gateway knives for owners or collectors. Maybe. It could be easily argued that they cause more harm than good, though. No question that they can be a grey area.

Part of the problem is that, as members, we can't agree on a clear definition between clones, copies or counterfeits.
One member may view all three as counterfeit and claim they are all wrong. With him, it's all black and white. To him, your are slime if you even consider owning one. Another will be against clones but copies are fine if there is no deceit on the part of the producer or seller. A third member may feel that copies are acceptable with the belief that they are good for the industry. Another thinks that copies are OK if they are produced locally but heaven forbid they are made overseas. As we all try to voice our opinions on this issue, somebody's toes are bound to get steeped on.

As I read post here on the forum, I see members character attacked or, at least their morals questioned if they even bring up the topic of clones. You've seen it, too. Maybe you have even been a victim. Fortunately, it does not seem to be too bad at the moment. If clones can damage the hobby, what can happen when we attack the morals of our fellow members?

Maybe, just maybe, if forum rules clearly defined copies, clones and counterfeits, there would be less chances, or reason to verbally bring members morals up for questioning. Directly or otherwise. Of course, you may be right. Defining them might not make any difference.

Well if you want to test the waters be my guest. Ive been here ten years and have seen numerous threads and pictures shut down if anyone tries to start a thread with a clone in it. Give it a shot. If you have a clone and know it has no counterfeit logos, make a thread on it. I would wager it would be up less than 24 hours. Some rules that are enforced aren't clearly written. And I am speaking from experience. I am not anti clone. I'm not a fan of counterfeits. But it has been told to me quite a few times that I should learn to stay in my lane and respect the wishes of the forum as a whole and that is to not be "pro clone". I am just trying to give advice. I actually think I started a thread in about 2013 asking the exact same question. "what is the difference between clone and counterfeit" So I knew what was fair game. Its an interesting read if you can find it. Basically the gist is if you have to ask you probably should keep it to yourself.

 

[PURPLEDC]

While we can agree that CRKT is expensive, I don't agree with the labeling of 8Cr13Mov, 4116 and Aus-8 as 'subpar' materials.


.

Well everyone has their standards. And with so many companies offering value products with s35vn, titanium and carbon fiber I do actually view those materials as subpar. Especially when given the price point CRKT tries to initially sell a knife for. You may not agree. And that is ok. But I wouldn't own or carry a CRKT at this point in my life. If they up their game that may change. IMHO CRKT has sat idle while the rest of the knife world passed them by.

 

[AtechReviews]

That thread you posted is a bad example, because I'm almost positive it was a troll post.
Read his OP.
Here 2 years and aware of the stance of most.

I've seen some troll posts in my life and this doesn't seem like a troll post to me.
I'm almost positive it is just a kid (and not a 47 y.o. man like his profile stats - just look at the birth date 01.01.70) who wanted to share his opinion.
So I think it is a great example (and not a single one).

And the worst part is the kid was actually right to refer to Ganzo as a gateway drug.
I judge by myself here - I owned like 8 Ganzos (most of them for reviewing purposes) and not a long time ago I got a genuine Benchmade 553 Griptilian to see how those are like.

 

[Danke42]

Yep. Whenever I want to find out what a good steak tastes like I rifle through the trash at McDonald's and find a rotten cheeseburger to scarf down. If I don't upchuck then I know what steak is like.

#Discuss

 

[trevitrace]

Yep. Whenever I want to find out what a good steak tastes like I rifle through the trash at McDonald's and find a rotten cheeseburger to scarf down. If I don't upchuck then I know what steak is like.

#Discuss

Sir, I really feel like you're oversimplifying this. You have to repeat the same rancid burger process at other fine burger joints to get an accurate representation.

 

[Hackenslash]

I've seen some troll posts in my life and this doesn't seem like a troll post to me.
I'm almost positive it is just a kid (and not a 47 y.o. man like his profile stats - just look at the birth date 01.01.70) who wanted to share his opinion.
So I think it is a great example (and not a single one).

And the worst part is the kid was actually right to refer to Ganzo as a gateway drug.
I judge by myself here - I owned like 8 Ganzos (most of them for reviewing purposes) and not a long time ago I got a genuine Benchmade 553 Griptilian to see how those are like.

Definitely looks like a troll post to me...just look at the opening post and look at all the keywords inserted to maximum effect:

"I think I've found a good reason to buy ganzo's knockoff knives. For a while I've thought the PM2 was an overhyped knife and I didn't understand why everyone revered it. So I decided to "dip a toe in the water" and try out the Ganzo ripoff of the PM2 and now I'm pretty much in love. I will definitely be picking up a PM2 in the near future. So what are your thoughts? I understand why people hate Ganzo stealing designs but what if it ends up making someone buy the original when they wouldn't have otherwise?"

I communicate with people for a living and there are so many trip words and phrases that indicate the poster understands the inflammatory nature of their post, I can't see them for anything else but a troll. Furthermore, his ganzo PM2 has an Axis lock so he could have no idea how he'd feel about the real thing.

Then, the same guy who wants to dip a toe in the water to test a Ganzo goes all ballistic by the 10th post of the thread (6 of which were by the OP) with "I've heard you all are a bunch of snobby jerks" and "I really hate you guys, I'm done with this forum". It doesn't seem like an honest question was the driving force behind his first post in 2 years...

But, none of us can judge the motives of another so I guess we'll never know for certain. In my opinion, the thread was troll bait and that resulted in the response the poster got. There have been many more threads where the request for advice seemed genuine and the response from BF has been gentler. I don't think the knife world response to clones and counterfeits is any worse, and probably less, than would be found in the world of fake handbags and designer clothes. Hey, we have a lot of edgy people around here, better come with some thick skin. If someone needs a safe space, go to college .

We can create as many justifications for the existence of clones as we want, at the end of the day it's a sense of entitlement that tells us we deserve to have what we want when we want it for the price we're will to pay. Atech, I don't hold that view on you because I truly believe you buy clones from a far more analytical perspective, but you're clearly in the minority.

 

[AtechReviews]

Yep. Whenever I want to find out what a good steak tastes like I rifle through the trash at McDonald's and find a rotten cheeseburger to scarf down. If I don't upchuck then I know what steak is like.

Not a very good comparison IMO. It's more like CK branded underwear and unbranded. Both fill the same purpose but may have different quality, and for some reasons it's very important for some folks to have that name on their underwear.

"We’re consumers. We are by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don’t concern me. What concerns me are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy’s name on my knife."

 

[PirateSeulb]

I've seen some troll posts in my life and this doesn't seem like a troll post to me.
I'm almost positive it is just a kid (and not a 47 y.o. man like his profile stats - just look at the birth date 01.01.70) who wanted to share his opinion.
So I think it is a great example (and not a single one).

And the worst part is the kid was actually right to refer to Ganzo as a gateway drug.
I judge by myself here - I owned like 8 Ganzos (most of them for reviewing purposes) and not a long time ago I got a genuine Benchmade 553 Griptilian to see how those are like.

Id still argue it a poor example the attacks are not terribly vicious and the kid walks out pouting after only 4 replies. I border on if it was a troll or not but still a poor example he wasn't constantly berated by single individuals. I ignore anything after post #10 as that is when he pouts, turns, and walks away so you can't use later remarks to show it as running him off as he was effectively gone at that point.

 

[sabre cat]

This is the big problem I see here and from an inexperienced/ novice's point of view. While most members on this forum are willing to drop constructive criticism and lead that person down a positive path there are others that seem to just go into attack mode if it's not brand or not less than a certain price tag. If an actual newb is looking for advice or speaking out of pure ignorance then mocking and ridiculing then doesn't do anybody any good.

I realize that there are members who have been here long enough and have probably seen so many of these posts that it just drives them crazy to see someone supported a clone and they see red. But to just attack on principal of clones can be counter productive unless it's a troll (get dems fellas outta here!). These are the members that seem like they'd be better off skipping on those thread and talking to the guys that are at their level and leave the new guys to the ones that can offer helpful and guiding advice. Everybody has to start somewhere and it's not always the best or "right" way either.

Agreed. The thing is, they won't skip those threads, ever. I firmly believe most of them feel they are trying to help but are really counter productive. Many times it is not what is said but, how it is said. Of course, you will have a few that just like being in attack mode. That's just their nature.

Personally, I have gotten to the point that part of me doesn't really care what what someone has in their pocket or what they spend their money on. If the knife is of decent quality and meets the owner's needs, who am I to cause problems. Sure, I am still going to voice my opinions and concerns but hopefully not say something like, "If you buy Brand X you are a thief!" Taking the time to explain that someone can get a better quality knife for the money they plan to spend seems like a better route to take.

It seems to me that getting a Noob to carry a blade they will really use should be top priority here at BF.com. I can see that some members really try to make that happen. Let me give you a great example. At one point in my knife collecting, I wanted a Ganzo copy of a LionSteel knife. I loved the looks and because it had the Axis Lock, it was perfect for my needs. I could get it with orange scales, too. The knife was looking better every second. And the price! The price was great! Why didn't everyone own this knife?

To make a long story short, one of our BF members gave me his but, more importantly, he explained, in detail, the practical side of making this knife part of my EDC line up. When I received the knife in the mail, I could see that he was spot on. The knife was much to large to meet my needs. The quality was decent for the price of 20-25 bucks but really fell short of what I was used to or wanted. Handling that knife let me know that it would never work for me and that the LionSteel probably wouldn't meet my needs any better. Today, that knife is owned by one of the doctors at work. He loves it. More importantly, he uses it.

I can't remember the guy's name but the member I spoke about above helped shape how I think about knives. That, in turn, help me save a bundle of money. A little time and education was the key.

 

[Danke42]

Sir, I really feel like you're oversimplifying this. You have to repeat the same rancid burger process at other fine burger joints to get an accurate representation.

I definitely do that; I just left it out of my review for brevity. You can see the whole thing in my youtube review they call me "nuts&fancy" I think.

 

[Danke42]

Not a very good comparison IMO. It's more like CK branded underwear and unbranded. Both fill the same purpose but may have different quality, and for some reasons it's very important for some folks to have that name on their underwear.

"We’re consumers. We are by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don’t concern me. What concerns me are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy’s name on my knife."

Not really; the fact is the OP is supporting intellectual property theft because to him it's an intangible. It has been very well said by pillars of the industry that any of these clones, homages, copies, or "jangos" are damaging to the makers that create and innovate.

The reason that modern folders are the most copied is that the thieves are lazy; they've already started their day buy taking something they had no right to use so why in the world would they copy something hard like a Northwoods Fremont Jack? Sure they could turn a tidy profit on those for a short period based on scarcity and demand but all those pins and natural materials are a deal breaker. Just pick a nice modern slab sided bolt together item and run a trace over it so your NC machine and wire cutter knows what to do and start cranking them out. The IG crowd will chow down on them for their next EDC photo.

Just like the snake offering up the apple they like to slither in here and seduce the younger/newer members with the idea of this isn't hurting anyone and it'll make you so happy to own one. It's all based in lies and theft and will never be legitimate or accepted here.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Yep. Whenever I want to find out what a good steak tastes like I rifle through the trash at McDonald's and find a rotten cheeseburger to scarf down. If I don't upchuck then I know what steak is like.

#Discuss

Or if you want to know what good steak is like you could do your research and get a good steak at a good price from a place that may not be well known yet but probably will one day. Then you can eat like a king on burger king budget. Sure it takes some patience and time to actually learning things. But it beats making ignorant comments about the cheaper steak you haven't tried yet.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Not really; the fact is the OP is supporting intellectual property theft because to him it's an intangible. It has been very well said by pillars of the industry that any of these clones, homages, copies, or "jangos" are damaging to the makers that create and innovate.

The reason that modern folders are the most copied is that the thieves are lazy; they've already started their day buy taking something they had no right to use so why in the world would they copy something hard like a Northwoods Fremont Jack? Sure they could turn a tidy profit on those for a short period based on scarcity and demand but all those pins and natural materials are a deal breaker. Just pick a nice modern slab sided bolt together item and run a trace over it so your NC machine and wire cutter knows what to do and start cranking them out. The IG crowd will chow down on them for their next EDC photo.

Just like the snake offering up the apple they like to slither in here and seduce the younger/newer members with the idea of this isn't hurting anyone and it'll make you so happy to own one. It's all based in lies and theft and will never be legitimate or accepted here.

Let me ask you a question. Would you expect the "pillars of the industry" to paint the picture any other way no matter what the real story is? And im sorry but you really are over simplifying what it takes to make a knife cnc or not. Cnc machining works the same way no matter what imaginary border it operates behind. And unless you have bought any knife over $100 direct from china you really dont know anything but what you are told from the people with an interest in you not buying knives directly from china. Furhermore some of those instagram makers people love throwing cash at? Some of them are actually just having an oem in china make the parts and they pimp them and sell them. Thats what custom knife factory is. Its a glorified kevin john from the people who before becoming ckf were just peddlers of clones and counterfeits. They didnt start caring about it until they themselves were being copied. That doesnt seem to bother anyone. They just judge from afar and ignore the fact that many are actually unknowingly still contributong to the problem they speak of. They just lie to themselves that their brous or devilliers or ckf are all made on the up and up because they are told so.

 

[Danke42]

Let me ask you a question. Would you expect the "pillars of the industry" to paint the picture any other way no matter what the real story is? And im sorry but you really are over simplifying what it takes to make a knife cnc or not. Cnc machining works the same way no matter what imaginary border it operates behind. And unless you have bought any knife over $100 direct from china you really dont know anything but what you are told from the people with an interest in you not buying knives directly from china. Furhermore some of those instagram makers people love throwing cash at? Some of them are actually just having an oem in china make the parts and they pimp them and sell them. Thats what custom knife factory is. Its a glorified kevin john from the people who before becoming ckf were just peddlers of clones and counterfeits. They didnt start caring about it until they themselves were being copied. That doesnt seem to bother anyone. They just judge from afar and ignore the fact that many are actually unknowingly still contributong to the problem they speak of. They just lie to themselves that their brous or devilliers or ckf are all made on the up and up because they are told so.

I'll believe what the pillars of the industry say ahead of your word.

CNC is the simplest process to copy so it's the most copied. Factories that have idle NC machines will looking for work. Due to my decades in the outdoor goods business I know very well how the the shady ones will create that work. Due to the concentration and the way local business laws work those factories are concentrated in China and other Asian countries.

Any factory over their that earns their daily bread building and selling their own product and IP gets a gold star from me. The ones that exist to churn out copies of ZT knives one week and the fake iPhone accessories the next week gets called out as thieves. I know they don't feel they're thieves but that's a pretty common way of thinking among those who steal.

As for the concern about the flavors of the week on IG selling knives made in China I don't care about IG. If those folks are making their own stuff kudos to them; if they're stealing designs too then they're just another brand of thief like the others.

And of course if you have specific knowledge about stuff that's not on the up and up post it in the clear instead of getting all vague and flighty about it.