On clones, by genre, a thesis

I'll believe what the pillars of the industry say ahead of your word.

CNC is the simplest process to copy so it's the most copied. Factories that have idle NC machines will looking for work. Due to my decades in the outdoor goods business I know very well how the the shady ones will create that work. Due to the concentration and the way local business laws work those factories are concentrated in China and other Asian countries.

Any factory over their that earns their daily bread building and selling their own product and IP gets a gold star from me. The ones that exist to churn out copies of ZT knives one week and the fake iPhone accessories the next week gets called out as thieves. I know they don't feel they're thieves but that's a pretty common way of thinking among those who steal.

As for the concern about the flavors of the week on IG selling knives made in China I don't care about IG. If those folks are making their own stuff kudos to them; if they're stealing designs too then they're just another brand of thief like the others.

And of course if you have specific knowledge about stuff that's not on the up and up post it in the clear instead of getting all vague and flighty about it.
I agree with most of what you said. But i also think there is either an opportunity to be seized or things will just continue the way they are. I dont want to see any zt counterfeits. I dont want to see any counterfeits. But one thing is for sure. They are going to continue to produce. What they produce can be influenced by those here but they need a guiding hand. If all we offer is a slap in the face we may never get there. Now dont get me wrong i get what im proposing seems like rewarding the enemy for wrong doing. But i dont think pride should get in the way of turning a negative into a positive. As for what i know and about who? Sorry. Ive tried to help in that regard in the past and it got me nothing but grief. And my sources and those conversations mean a whole lot more to me than being right one time on the internet. Hope you understand.
 
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I can't remember the guy's name but the member I spoke about above helped shape how I think about knives. That, in turn, help me save a bundle of money. A little time and education was the key.

I just saved a bundle of money by switching to geico.... and I used that money to support the honest, innovative makers instead of thieves.
 
It has been very well said by pillars of the industry that any of these clones, homages, copies, or "jangos" are damaging to the makers that create and innovate.
I am not surprised that you claim they said that, although I never actually heard anybody address that issue, except for Sal and Eric, that said that counterfeits are a big problem (and that is plausible) and for clones (that don't have the original logo and couldn't be mistaken for an original knife) being a less of a problem.

Haven't heard any other pillar address that issue. Moreover I haven't heard about an academic study being conducted in this area and market to show what exactly is the impact clones have on the industry as a whole. As I've already mentioned and explained, a single hate post could do more damage to the industry than the fact someone bought a clone of a knife.

The reason that modern folders are the most copied is that the thieves are lazy; they've already started their day buy taking something they had no right to use so why in the world would they copy something hard like a Northwoods Fremont Jack? Sure they could turn a tidy profit on those for a short period based on scarcity and demand but all those pins and natural materials are a deal breaker. Just pick a nice modern slab sided bolt together item and run a trace over it so your NC machine and wire cutter knows what to do and start cranking them out. The IG crowd will chow down on them for their next EDC photo.
I probably know a bit more than you about the clone industry and let me tell you - they (I speak in general, but there is more than one company) go for what they believe is "hot" ATM or a classic custom design that haven't been made before, meaning they think it will sell better.
Let me assure you those guys ain't lazy as you think, if they managed to produce a factory made Buck 110 D/A Auto, that Northwoods would be a piece of cake for them.
But the Fremont Jacks wouldn't be sought after, cause they are pretty niche knives, at least on IG and other "in" forums.
Also they do listen to feedback (and the sales) and adjust, because a few years ago only few makers would make sterile clones and most were making counterfeits, but lately more and more of them started making no-logo clones.

Just like the snake offering up the apple they like to slither in here and seduce the younger/newer members with the idea of this isn't hurting anyone and it'll make you so happy to own one. It's all based in lies and theft and will never be legitimate or accepted here.
Don't agree with that statement. I can testify that I didn't recommend anyone to buy a clone unless they specifically asked an advice about a clone.
I believe this should be their own choice like it was for me when I bought my first clone (I blame the industry for that btw).
Moreover, I do honest clone reviews showing the good and the bad of every model, if I truly just wanted to promote clones, I'd probably say they are all excellent.
In addition to that, I've given countless free advice how to tell the counterfeit from the genuine knife, cause I seem to be good at that.

Like I already stated on this forum, the pillars of the knife industry should really ask the question - "What makes people buy clones?" in the first place.
A clue - it isn't because those people are immoral or want to support stealing IP.
 
Bravo;sir been around for a whole week and hasn't shilled a clone yet. There must be some kind of trophy just waiting for you.

I'll turn your question on it's head. Why are the clones so cheap? Because they're built on feet of clay; just like the guy selling stereos that fell off a truck they're dishonest.

Sure people will still buy hot stereos in a parking lot and stolen phones off ebay and clone knives from craigslist. We all get it.

What we don't get is why you and your ilk are so unhappy that you don't get a free pass here. This is a place with integrity and members that depend on each other's honesty. When they see someone pressing a blatantly dishonest or false claim they'll call them out. And I applaud them all for that.

The simple fact is that the very rules of site state this type of behavior will not be tolerated. The vast bulk of the membership agrees with and abides by that rule. It is in fact a good rule to live your life in general by; perhaps even a golden rule. If that's to hard for you to live by so be it. We'll see how it all turns out.
 
Cloning might as well be called identity theft as far as I'm concerned.

Knife companies put in thousands of dollars and man hours in research and development to put out a good product that functions properly, then some scumbag comes along and copies it without putting any hard work in.

Same goes for identity theft. You work your ass off to pay your bills and raise your credit ratings, then some scumbag CLONES your identity and steals everything you worked hard for.

Theft is Theft. Stop making excuses for these assholes.
 
Bravo;sir been around for a whole week and hasn't shilled a clone yet. There must be some kind of trophy just waiting for you.
Yay, what's that trophy? Is it finally a genuine knife? Oh no, it's just some more accusations of immorality... :)

I'll turn your question on it's head. Why are the clones so cheap? Because they're built on feet of clay; just like the guy selling stereos that fell off a truck they're dishonest.
That's the thing, clones aren't cheap. They project the price of manufacturing a knife (in China) and then selling it with a normal profit margin (including international shipping).
That is the price of a knife minus marketing, ads, branding, warranty (that you might never use), etc.
Add 15% to a designer (if any designer would agree to cooperate) and you still don't scratch the genuine knife prices.

It's like when you see a product on Ali for a few bucks and then see the same one on Amazon (with the same picture), but someone wrote a sophisticated brand name for it and sells it for 4x the price. Then you ask: "Why is the other one so cheap?"
It's not. That's what it's supposed to cost.

just like the guy selling stereos that fell off a truck they're dishonest.
Sure people will still buy hot stereos in a parking lot and stolen phones off ebay and clone knives from craigslist. We all get it.
Don't agree with those comparisons, but we've seen it, comparisons aren't your strong suit. We get it.

Like I already stated on this forum, the pillars of the knife industry should really ask the question - "What makes people buy clones?" in the first place.
You know why the pillars don't ask that question? Probably because they don't really care. Or the clones don't really hurt them. Until now, other than to train their free anti-clone puppies they've done absolutely nothing on the issue.

What we don't get is why you and your ilk are so unhappy that you don't get a free pass here.
The simple fact is that the very rules of site state this type of behavior will not be tolerated. The vast bulk of the membership agrees with and abides by that rule. It is in fact a good rule to live your life in general by; perhaps even a golden rule. If that's to hard for you to live by so be it. We'll see how it all turns out.
I didn't come here to argue clones.
But if there is misinformation and some people who have no idea what they are talking about, I will speak up.
Don't think I broke any written rules and till now I had 0 conflicts with the forum's staff.
If I will get banned for speaking up, expressing my opinion and arguing it - so be it.
 
Interesting (if heated) topic.

I'd differentiate between clones, counterfeits, and tributes.

Counterfeits are the ones where the design is exactly the same and the maker has ripped off branding, logos, names, etc. as well in a deliberate and fraudulent attempt to pass his product off as something that it is not.

Clones are the ones where someone is making designs using intellectual property that doesn't belong to them but is not attempting to market the product as being the genuine knife that was originally ripped off.

Tributes are the ones where a design or feature has passed into common use, often because there was no patent in the first place, because any relevant patents lapsed, or because the maker has generally released or given specific permission to use his or her designs. The most honest tributes are the ones where someone has explicit permission to use a design or feature and explicitly credits the original designer when marketing or describing the new work.

Really I think most of the argument is on the gray line between clone and tribute. Traditional knife patterns are on the safest end. Maybe at one time those were somebody's designs, but they're long dead, and the designs have been in common use for more than a century in many cases- no one is arguing today that those designs are protected IP. But there's a lot of gray areas... what about Randall tributes? Bo has long since passed on, but obviously Randall is still making those designs. But so are a lot of other makers. A lot of commonly tributed makers still have estates that may or may not have an interest in protecting the maker's work. Hard to tell in some of those cases.
 
"Its only here that so many get so bothered by clones, in other industries, such as watches and guns, its not such a big deal" And in fact I would suspect that this is true, insofar as the product being sold is worth purchasing, ie, someone might warn someone else away from a product because it's crap, not because its is a "clone"

I don't know about that. As a recovering watch addict, I spent years over at Watchuseek and PMWF and other online communities like this and I perceived the same gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes over clones, counterfeits and "homages". Also the same arguments over country of origin, where the parts were manufactured, where the watch was assembled, and QC'd and etc.
 
This is such a non-issue. Unless someone markets their non-Xbrand knife as an actual Xbrand knife, there is no problem. None. One thing to notice reading these comments is the use of the word "I". We all choose knives based on what we want at the time of the choosing.

Knife makers hating these knives is at least understandable. They are now in the unenviable position of having to defend why their product is better than "X" and why you should spend $n more on their product. That is how the world works. Mousetraps, cell phones, TV's, cars, literally everything.

Edit: Question: if someone thinks that a Sebenza clone is actually better than a Sebenza, does that make him wrong? Should he buy a Sebenza because the majority opinion does not agree with him?
 
Yep. Whenever I want to find out what a good steak tastes like I rifle through the trash at McDonald's and find a rotten cheeseburger to scarf down. If I don't upchuck then I know what steak is like.

#Discuss
Fair enough, but what if you bite into that rotten cheeseburger and discover that you rather enjoy the taste of the rotten cheeseburger? What if it satisfies alot of your requirements for what you were looking for when you originally set out on you steak quest? Granted, it's still not steak, but what if you are happy that you are eating a rotten cheeseburger?
 
Fair enough, but what if you bite into that rotten cheeseburger and discover that you rather enjoy the taste of the rotten cheeseburger? What if it satisfies alot of your requirements for what you were looking for when you originally set out on you steak quest? Granted, it's still not steak, but what if you are happy that you are eating a rotten cheeseburger?

Hi, Tuesdays on Blade Forums is free advice day. Here's yours.

If you want to assert a truth first make sure it's not an opinion that you desperately want to be true.
 
Edit: Question: if someone thinks that a Sebenza clone is actually better than a Sebenza, does that make him wrong? Should he buy a Sebenza because the majority opinion does not agree with him?

If he has the opinion that a Sebenza clone is better than the real deal, he's not wrong.
Uninformed? Probably.
Misguided? No Question.
Unrealistic? Of course.
How can an opinion be wrong? It's just an opinion. Now, if he claims his opinion as fact, yes, he is wrong. 100% wrong.

And, no, he should not buy a real Sebenza. This is the sort of person that will never really understand or appreciate what makes a CRK special. The quality, workmanship and design will all be lost on him. The guy would probably use the knife as a screwdriver.
 
That's the thing, clones aren't cheap. They project the price of manufacturing a knife (in China) and then selling it with a normal profit margin (including international shipping).
That is the price of a knife minus marketing, ads, branding, warranty (that you might never use), etc.
Add 15% to a designer (if any designer would agree to cooperate) and you still don't scratch the genuine knife prices.

It's like when you see a product on Ali for a few bucks and then see the same one on Amazon (with the same picture), but someone wrote a sophisticated brand name for it and sells it for 4x the price. Then you ask: "Why is the other one so cheap?"
It's not. That's what it's supposed to cost.

I'd argue that those things are part of the inherent cost of a/any knife. If I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that these are extra costs associated with purchasing a brand-name blade as opposed to the much lower cost of a clone where one would only be paying for the manufacturing and perhaps shipping?

However (to myself at least, and I suspect I may not be alone here), with maybe the exception of paying for a brand name, paying for these associated costs is fair in my eyes. When a company spends money and many hours doing R&D for a product, in this case a knife, they're obviously going to want it to sell so they can make a profit off of it (how all for-profit businesses operate I'd imagine). This in turn means making the public aware of this new and awesome product they've put together over time that's been given a lot of effort - hence the necessity of marketing and ads. The more people that know about the product, the chances are that more people are going to buy it because how can someone buy something that they don't even know exists? We should also want our favourite knife companies to move their products because their health is good for our hobby and the industry.

As for the warranty, it's basically insurance. You hope you won't ever need it, but if you do, thank god it's there!

Bringing this back to clones, the flaws that I see in your argument relating to the associated costs mentioned above are:

1) You pay for the marketing in a brand name knife and you according to you, one wouldn't when purchasing a clone. HOWEVER, that's not to say there isn't any marketing for the clone - the clone gets some pretty good free marketing from the company that they're "borrowing" the design from. Using Spyderco as an example, they market their designs and promote them to us consumers. When someone stumbles across their products/marketing but decides not to purchase a knife from them due to cost for example, but they're willing to pull the trigger on the clone they found online because its a cheaper alternative that still allows them to buy into some/all of the benefits of the design then the popularity/reputation/marketing of Spyderco surely had a hand in this clone's purchase somewhere did it not? This is not to say everyone who buys a clone is looking for a cheaper alternative to the original or that you can't buy a clone without knowing about the original, but it would seem to me clones don't need advertising because they are piggy-backing off of the advertising/marketing/popularity of the original. So in essence you're not paying for advertising with a clone because they're "borrowing" that too.

2) You may not ever need to use a warranty service. I may not ever need to use a warranty service. But there are certainly a great many that have used one and there will be many more that will use a warranty service in the future. We always hope that with anything, the product was made right so it doesn't have to be "made right," but this is clearly not always the case. And it could be argued that instead of forcing someone to pay for warranty service by building the cost into the knife when makers and manufacturers could simply drop the price, but I have two problems with this. The first of which is it creates a disposable mentality which is not the greatest for the environment. Alternatively, materials and F&F still need to be paid for in a knife among other things and the higher-end the materials are and the greater the level of F&F is, removing the cost of the warranty only does so much to affect the price. If a $600 knife was able to be sold for $500 or even $400 because you were no longer paying for that pesky warranty, then if you had a problem with the knife that you couldn't fix yourself, would you be able to just chuck it away with the mentality of "It's fine, I'll just buy a new one"? Even if you're buying clones that were $10-$20 a pop and you didn't care if they lasted a lifetime or a couple months, by the time you bought your 3rd or 4th clone because of this problem or that problem, wouldn't you have just been better off buying an inexpensive $30 dollar knife from a company that had an awesome warranty? Even if you've had your $20 clone for a few years with no problems, it also says something about a company when they are willing to stand behind their product, whether its their $30 knife or their $300 knife, and personally, the piece of mind is again, worth the price of admission for me.

I'm not necessarily attacking the clones themselves here, but what I am trying to do is tell you that those "extraneous" costs that you associated with brand name knives aren't as unneeded as you may think. At the very least, they aren't unwarrated to me.
 
I'm not necessarily attacking the clones themselves here, but what I am trying to do is tell you that those "extraneous" costs that you associated with brand name knives aren't as unneeded as you may think. At the very least, they aren't unwarrated to me.
I understand what you say and I agree with you on some level.
I was asked why are the clones so cheap and I explained why.
Great example I can provide is that the Chinese have original designs made in the same factories as clones, from the same materials, have the same basic concept and those are priced approx. the same although not using designs from other knives. So the R&D factor isn't really relevant here.

As for the warranty - it's a great thing when it works well. But when it doesn't (hm Microtech) - you get screwed twice - once for paying the warranty as a part of the price of the knife and the second time when you don't get good service and have a disposable knife on your hands. Like that guy on YT who tested the Gerber Propel Auto and then found out Gerber doesn't provide warranty service in Russia. Or other folks from outside of US, who are asked to send the knife to US for a warranty and charged for shipping the knife back and are out $40 for each warranty case (even when it is a manufacturing defect).

And don't think the clonemakers don't provide warranty either. First of all, if the knife isn't good you can return it (ship it back within 15 days) and get a full refund (no restocking fee).
Second of all - if you encounter a problem - you can always contact the seller you bought it from and if the knife is still in production and that part is available - they will send it to you with your next purchase or charge you a few bucks for shipping and the part. I've done both (the returning and the parts ordering) a few times and it worked great.
 
This makes absolutely no sense.

Your opinion is that clones are equal to or better that what they were copied from.

That is patently false and the entire premise is ludicrous.

The "truth" that you are expounding is merely an opinion proved wrong time and again by fact.

But do go on.
 
If he has the opinion that a Sebenza clone is better than the real deal, he's not wrong.
Uninformed? Probably.
Misguided? No Question.
Unrealistic? Of course.
How can an opinion be wrong? It's just an opinion. Now, if he claims his opinion as fact, yes, he is wrong. 100% wrong.

And, no, he should not buy a real Sebenza. This is the sort of person that will never really understand or appreciate what makes a CRK special. The quality, workmanship and design will all be lost on him. The guy would probably use the knife as a screwdriver.

Uninformed? Probably. No
Misguided? No Question. To you
Unrealistic? Of course. To you

To be clear, by "clone" I am not talking about a knife that is marketed as something it is not. That is reprehensible. If you say, "Here is a Marfione Custom Dragonslayer IV OTF Knife SS/Super Conductor", then, by God, it better be a Marfione Custom Dragonslayer IV OTF Knife SS/Super Conductor. I am referring to knives that copy designs but slap their own company logo on them.

Arguments here against clones fall into a few categories:

1. It's stealing. This is just false on it's face.
2. It hurts the knife community. There has been no evidence to back this up.
3. It hurts knife makers. Not sure how that is. Like I said earlier, at worst it makes them have to defend their product. At best, it shows that their product is superior.
4. They are inferior pieces of (crap, rotten cheeseburger, garbage, whatever). This is the only sensible argument. However, it is also a false argument. Obviously, only you can decide if a knife is junk. I know people with extremely cheap knives (like $3.87 cheap) and are completely satisfied with them and wouldn't ever think about purchasing anything more expensive. Is their opinion wrong? Of course not. You can argue that to you, this knife, or this steel, or this blade shape, or this maker, or this heat treat, or whatever, is superior, but there is no objective "better" knife outside of whatever you find better.

TL;DR Arguments against clones are dumb.
 
Your opinion is that clones are equal to or better that what they were copied from.

That is patently false and the entire premise is ludicrous.

The "truth" that you are expounding is merely an opinion proved wrong time and again by fact.

But do go on.

Man, I am typing as slow as I can, but it appears you are not tall enough for this ride. I didn't say that clones were equal to or better than what they were copied from. That's in your head. I said that you can't objectively say that a knife is better. You can say that "in my opinion, this knife is better", and that may be convincing to me. But that does not make it so.
 
Hello all speaking of ZT clones I just went through a less than nice experience on here with a "trusted seller" which I don't know what that means anymore because they sold me a clone and they're supposed to know what they're doing. If I hadn't bought another real 0562 I would have been out over $260 for a $50 knife he did refund my money but he was kind of an ass about the whole thing but unfortunately it's too late for me to change my feedback with that being said I hate clones all they do is screw up the market if people want to buy them great just don't get on here and talk about it and tell me how wonderful they are because until you really get hosed I don't think it concerns a lot of people. I've never wanted fake anything when I see people buy fake purses and shoes that I'm friends with them and I tell them why don't you just save up and get one that's real instead of owning 5 fakes??? My opinion is I don't think people would like clones if they ever got stuck with one that was supposed to be real my rant is over.
 
I understand what you say and I agree with you on some level.
I was asked why are the clones so cheap and I explained why.
Great example I can provide is that the Chinese have original designs made in the same factories as clones, from the same materials, have the same basic concept and those are priced approx. the same although not using designs from other knives. So the R&D factor isn't really relevant here.

As for the warranty - it's a great thing when it works well. But when it doesn't (hm Microtech) - you get screwed twice - once for paying the warranty as a part of the price of the knife and the second time when you don't get good service and have a disposable knife on your hands. Like that guy on YT who tested the Gerber Propel Auto and then found out Gerber doesn't provide warranty service in Russia. Or other folks from outside of US, who are asked to send the knife to US for a warranty and charged for shipping the knife back and are out $40 for each warranty case (even when it is a manufacturing defect).

And don't think the clonemakers don't provide warranty either. First of all, if the knife isn't good you can return it (ship it back within 15 days) and get a full refund (no restocking fee).
Second of all - if you encounter a problem - you can always contact the seller you bought it from and if the knife is still in production and that part is available - they will send it to you with your next purchase or charge you a few bucks for shipping and the part. I've done both (the returning and the parts ordering) a few times and it worked great.

Microtech's warranty service being..."uninspiring" to say the least is quite true, and they aren't the only company with poor CS after the product has been sold and is in the hands of the end user. But there are definitiely plenty of companies which do provide good CS, and the the ones that I can think of off the top of my head also seem to be or have been heavily targeted by clone and/or counterfeit makers in the past. I live in Canada so I can also understand and appreciate the price of having "free" warranty work done - shipping isn't cheap and even when it is, it does add up. However, the reason I brought up manufacturer warranties was because it seemed to me that in your post, you were alluding to the fact that when you purchase a clone, one of the reasons that they are so reasonably priced is that (among other things) you're not paying for any potential future warranty service. I never said all/every clone manufacturers didn't provide the service (it seemed like you did, or at least made it sound like many don't as a means to make production more cost-effective), I simply provided a reason as to why I personally (and other like minded individuals) don't mind paying for the service as part of the built in cost when I buy my knives.
 
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