On clones, by genre, a thesis

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Fair enough, but what if you bite into that rotten cheeseburger and discover that you rather enjoy the taste of the rotten cheeseburger? What if it satisfies alot of your requirements for what you were looking for when you originally set out on you steak quest? Granted, it's still not steak, but what if you are happy that you are eating a rotten cheeseburger?

And what if the cheeseburger wasnt even rotten. What if the cheeseburger was just good normal beef instead of angus or wagyu? What if it was just cooked and seasoned really well. Now i would understand a five star chef who sells wagyu burgers with a gold leaf crouton wanting people to believe all other burgers made to imitate his are inferior. And maybe they are. But some may not need or want that refinement. And maybe they are stuck in limbo between not wanting or affording that expensive burger and not being satisfied with a mcdonalds burger.

Now if that chef is a personal friend. It would be hard to say im getting the clone burger. But i kinda feel the persons happiness that matters the most is the person buying a product. And all the rules we have placed in the paths of people are man made rules. And a few of them I find a bit extreme. And everyone, i dont care who you are at some point chooses what rules they will and will not follow. We like to talk a lot about social justice warriors and whos battle certain things are to fight. And one of the most important lessons i have learned is when to not fight at all but rather come up with an entirely new way of facing what is perceived a problem.

I have discussed this topic many times. But its only recently that it seems people can debate the topic without it going straight to insults. I agree counterfeiting needs to be curbed. But the people doing the counterfeiting have cnc machines. And they are going to continue making something. And the only way i see them not cloning or counterfeiting would be to have them make something else. A legit authorized product. The clone market is unpredictable. I think they all would like legitimacy and stability at some point. But what do you do with someone who is misguided? Give up and ignore them? Or do you show them another way? Ignoring, berating and dismissal of these manufacturers has not done anything. I just feel a new approach is the only way to change anything.
 
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Hello all speaking of ZT clones I just went through a less than nice experience on here with a "trusted seller" which I don't know what that means anymore because they sold me a clone and they're supposed to know what they're doing. If I hadn't bought another real 0562 I would have been out over $260 for a $50 knife he did refund my money but he was kind of an ass about the whole thing but unfortunately it's too late for me to change my feedback with that being said I hate clones all they do is screw up the market if people want to buy them great just don't get on here and talk about it and tell me how wonderful they are because until you really get hosed I don't think it concerns a lot of people. I've never wanted fake anything when I see people buy fake purses and shoes that I'm friends with them and I tell them why don't you just save up and get one that's real instead of owning 5 fakes??? My opinion is I don't think people would like clones if they ever got stuck with one that was supposed to be real my rant is over.

That does suck. And i feel for you. I have no idea what happened in your situation. But just remember sometimes people think they got a fake even when they got a real one. A perfect example is the knife you mentioned. When they switched to s35vn people automatically jumped and said they were fake. Why? Because at that point only the fakes had been sold as s35vn. Now your knife may have really been fake. But those people who were crying foul on legit knives? They were supposed to know their stuff too. No one is infallible. Still most clones and even counterfeits are sold with a lot of transparency. They arent saying they are real. The people doing the real screwing live right next door.
 
Could there be a chance that this trusted seller wasn't aware of the knife being a fake??
How did you know it was a fake?? Are you 100% sure it isn't real??
Do you have pics?

Hello all speaking of ZT clones I just went through a less than nice experience on here with a "trusted seller" which I don't know what that means anymore because they sold me a clone and they're supposed to know what they're doing. If I hadn't bought another real 0562 I would have been out over $260 for a $50 knife he did refund my money but he was kind of an ass about the whole thing but unfortunately it's too late for me to change my feedback with that being said I hate clones all they do is screw up the market if people want to buy them great just don't get on here and talk about it and tell me how wonderful they are because until you really get hosed I don't think it concerns a lot of people. I've never wanted fake anything when I see people buy fake purses and shoes that I'm friends with them and I tell them why don't you just save up and get one that's real instead of owning 5 fakes??? My opinion is I don't think people would like clones if they ever got stuck with one that was supposed to be real my rant is over.
 
P


And what if the cheeseburger wasnt even rotten. What if the cheeseburger was just good normal beef instead of angus or wagyu? What if it was just cooked and seasoned really well. Now i would understand a five star chef who sells wagyu burgers with a gold leaf crouton wanting people to believe all other burgers made to imitate his are inferior. And maybe they are. But some may not need or want that refinement. And maybe they are stuck in limbo between not wanting or affording that expensive burger and not being satisfied with a mcdonalds burger.

Now if that chef is a personal friend. It would be hard to say im getting the clone burger. But i kinda feel the persons happiness that matters the most is the person buying a product. And all the rules we have placed in the paths of people are man made rules. And a few of them I find a bit extreme. And everyone, i dont care who you are at some point chooses what rules they will and will not follow. We like to talk a lot about social justice warriors and whos battle certain things are to fight. And one of the most important lessons i have learned is when to not fight at all but rather come up with an entirely new way of facing what is perceived a problem.

I have discussed this topic many times. But its only recently that it seems people can debate the topic without it going straight to insults. I agree counterfeiting needs to be curbed. But the people doing the counterfeiting have cnc machines. And they are going to continue making something. And the only way i see them not cloning or counterfeiting would be to have them make something else. A legit authorized product. The clone market is unpredictable. I think they all would like legitimacy and stability at some point. But what do you do with someone who is misguided? Give up and ignore them? Or do you show them another way? Ignoring, berating and dismissal of these manufacturers has not done anything. I just feel a new approach is the only way to change anything.

Waygu hamburgers? As P.T. Barnum would say " I think people that order those are compensating for something". I feel that quote translates remarkably well to those consumers who must own a fake knife to bolster their ego and their Instagram posts.

Now of course you may feel I'm in the wrong here and I totally understand. If you're that sure I would like extend an invasion to visit my art museum. The displays are all pictures torn out of magazines I found at the recycling center and a proctologist's office I enjoy lingering in but they are art and the admission price is much less than the total sunk cost of flying to the Louvre. You will need to prepay via PayPal Friends and Family because to me a stranger on the internet is just a friend I haven't met and taken money off yet.

Who can argue with that?
 
Man, I am typing as slow as I can, but it appears you are not tall enough for this ride. I didn't say that clones were equal to or better than what they were copied from. That's in your head. I said that you can't objectively say that a knife is better. You can say that "in my opinion, this knife is better", and that may be convincing to me. But that does not make it so.

You can objectively say one knife is better than the other. Very much so.
 
Waygu hamburgers? As P.T. Barnum would say " I think people that order those are compensating for something". I feel that quote translates remarkably well to those consumers who must own a fake knife to bolster their ego and their Instagram posts.

Now of course you may feel I'm in the wrong here and I totally understand. If you're that sure I would like extend an invasion to visit my art museum. The displays are all pictures torn out of magazines I found at the recycling center and a proctologist's office I enjoy lingering in but they are art and the admission price is much less than the total sunk cost of flying to the Louvre. You will need to prepay via PayPal Friends and Family because to me a stranger on the internet is just a friend I haven't met and taken money off yet.

Who can argue with that?

Well I would say that you, as a person who doesn't buy clones. Doesn't like clones. And probably has no real first hand experience with them or the mindset of the person who actually does that your perspective is much like anyone who has no first hand experience with a topic they would like to be vocal about. Its all speculation and projecting your own way of thinking onto a person who simply doesn't think like you. Obviously. Right down to your comment that an owner of a fake knife is doing it to bolster their ego and Instagram account.

Clones have nothing to do with ego or showing off. In fact they are about practicality and personal enjoyment. Anyone who would post a picture of a fake for social status points is an idiot. Even the best fakes can be outed in a good picture so there is no false sense of prestige to attain with an action like that and it really only shows how distant you are from really understanding the motivation of most buyers of such products. In fact the most emails and messages I get about the topic are from people who ask me not to mention their names if a conversation like this occurs. They usually want a clone because they would like to leave their expensive version at home and not risk loss or damage yet they still want to enjoy the design. The second most popular type is the person who isn't sure about a design yet and instead of dropping serious coin on the original they buy the clone just to see if the weight shape and feel warrants a further look. Especially into something not readily available.

And as for your "art gallery"? I am not personally interested in your offer. But I also feel like you should be able to do what you get enjoyment out of. And even in that sense your comparison is way way off. Clones in the art world actually exist. They call them prints. That would be an art clone. A fake piece of art that isn't sold as the original yet is very faithful to it. And in some cases true counterfeit works of art have been so good they fool professionals for years. But at least in that world they can acknowledge talent even if it hurts their pride to do so. They don't have to lie to themselves that the artist had no talent because at the end of the day the ability to fool an expert might just be the best show of talent their is aside from creating something yourself.
 
No copyright, no registered trademark - no problem.
Thanks to globalization its a ffa
 
Could there be a chance that this trusted seller wasn't aware of the knife being a fake??
How did you know it was a fake?? Are you 100% sure it isn't real??
Do you have pics?
Yes unfortunately Joe I did the research and then I sent the pictures to ZT but after watching four videos in Russian on mute I started to see all the discrepancies and as far as him not knowing he's had the same model up for sale several times I wonder how many other people have got fakes as well because I look at it like this if you're going to sell stuff and act like you know what you're doing then you better be able to spot a clone because this guy doesn't and he's in the top 15 sellers right now and I'll never buy anything off of him again because what really sucks about it is he had the same model for sale only a real one and wouldn't offer to send me that one instead of the full refund which wasn't full because I had to pay shipping to send the fake back.
 

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Uninformed? Probably. No
Misguided? No Question. To you
Unrealistic? Of course. To you

You ask a question that really can only be answered with an opinion and maybe some facts to back it up. There is a chance that your clone supporter knows little or nothing about the true qualities of a Sebenza. If so, he is uninformed.

He may have been raised to believe that there is no real advantage to knives that cost over $20 and that you throw money away if you buy one. If so, he has been misguided.

From a logic standpoint, if the clone you speak of is not built to the same standards (or better) than a real Sebenza, it is unrealistic to expect the same level of performance (or better). So, his thinking can be consider unrealistic.

It can be argued that a Gerber Paraframe is as good as any knife from CRK. Yet we both know that it isn't. Chances are a Sebenza clone isn't either.

Yes, the answers above are just my opinion but, remember, you set the standards with the way you phrased your questions.

Do yourself a favor. Don't ask the question if there is a possibility that you won't like the answer. Or, at least, come up with something better than your weak psyco-babble "To you" response.

Just my opinion.
 
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You ask a question that really can only be answered with an opinion and maybe some facts to back it up. There is a chance that your clone supporter knows little or nothing about the true qualities of a Sebenza. If so, he is uninformed.

He may have been raised to believe that there is no real advantage to knives that cost over $20 and that you throw money away if you buy one. If so, he has been misguided.

From a logic standpoint, if the clone you speak of is not built to the same standards (or better) than a real Sebenza, it is unrealistic to expect the same level of performance (or better). So, his thinking can be consider unrealistic.

It can be argued that a Gerber Paraframe is as good as any knife from CRK. Yet we both know that it isn't. Chances are a Sebenza clone isn't either.

Yes, the answers above are just my opinion but, remember, you set the standards with the way you phrased your questions.

Do yourself a favor. Don't ask the question if there is a possibility that you won't like the answer. Or, at least, come up with something better than your weak psyco-babble "To you" response.

Just my opinion.
The question was rhetorical.
 
Yes unfortunately Joe I did the research and then I sent the pictures to ZT but after watching four videos in Russian on mute I started to see all the discrepancies and as far as him not knowing he's had the same model up for sale several times I wonder how many other people have got fakes as well because I look at it like this if you're going to sell stuff and act like you know what you're doing then you better be able to spot a clone because this guy doesn't and he's in the top 15 sellers right now and I'll never buy anything off of him again because what really sucks about it is he had the same model for sale only a real one and wouldn't offer to send me that one instead of the full refund which wasn't full because I had to pay shipping to send the fake back.
Punctuation, please!
But yeah, the knife in your pictures is a fake (can tell by the CF).

There is a chance that your clone supporter knows little or nothing about the true qualities of a Sebenza.
Sebenza isn't a good example of a model, where a clone is better than the original and that is because the construction of the knife doesn't really allow to clone it well (bronze washers and not bearings, bushing system, no steel insert on the frame - all those things require pretty high tolerances).
I've handled more than one genuine Sebenza and owned a few clones, can't really say that clones are better made or are better knives overall. Give more bang for the buck - arguable, but not better knives.
There were a few Sebenza clones made by Kevin John - those may be comparable but not better.
A good example of a clone that is made better than the original is a Strider made by Kevin John, it was almost perfect, while the genuine ones had far worst action and lock problems (such as lock stick and lock rock). The problem is the KJ's are pricey and limited, so are now sold for prices similar to the genuine Striders.

and a proctologist's office I enjoy lingering in
That explains a lot :)
 
Punctuation, please!
But yeah, the knife in your pictures is a fake (can tell by the CF).


Sebenza isn't a good example of a model, where a clone is better than the original and that is because the construction of the knife doesn't really allow to clone it well (bronze washers and not bearings, bushing system, no steel insert on the frame - all those things require pretty high tolerances).
I've handled more than one genuine Sebenza and owned a few clones, can't really say that clones are better made or are better knives overall. Give more bang for the buck - arguable, but not better knives.
There were a few Sebenza clones made by Kevin John - those may be comparable but not better.
A good example of a clone that is made better than the original is a Strider made by Kevin John, it was almost perfect, while the genuine ones had far worst action and lock problems (such as lock stick and lock rock). The problem is the KJ's are pricey and limited, so are now sold for prices similar to the genuine Striders.


That explains a lot :)

Yeah I tend not to care about English class when I'm being passionate about what I'm saying I already read it back and was picking on myself.
 
Punctuation, please!
But yeah, the knife in your pictures is a fake (can tell by the CF).


Sebenza isn't a good example of a model, where a clone is better than the original and that is because the construction of the knife doesn't really allow to clone it well (bronze washers and not bearings, bushing system, no steel insert on the frame - all those things require pretty high tolerances).
I've handled more than one genuine Sebenza and owned a few clones, can't really say that clones are better made or are better knives overall. Give more bang for the buck - arguable, but not better knives.
There were a few Sebenza clones made by Kevin John - those may be comparable but not better.
A good example of a clone that is made better than the original is a Strider made by Kevin John, it was almost perfect, while the genuine ones had far worst action and lock problems (such as lock stick and lock rock). The problem is the KJ's are pricey and limited, so are now sold for prices similar to the genuine Striders.


That explains a lot :)

Yeah funny thing I type in "Alibaba" and the compy 64 auto corrects it to "Proctologist's Office".

I must see about getting that fixed (rhetorically at least).
 
I can see that now that I am well rested. Sorry if I over reacted with my response.

Tell me, if the question was rhetorical, why did you even bother to respond?
No need to apologize, you didn't over react. I am just trying to show that arguments against clones boils down to: "They aren't as good as the original." This is, of course, subjective, and therefore not a good argument. Only you can decide what is best.
 
I bought a $5000 Steel bike frame before paint built by one of the few American master frame builders and waited 5 1/2 years for it on top of it, when I could have bought a more high tech Giant, Trek, or Cannondale but I have no regrets. I bought a $500 knife built of carbon fiber, Ti and some S35VN, I could have spent far less and probably gotten better on the spec sheet. In the end the specs of either are not the point, the package is, the man is, the warranty is, the company is.
 
Hello all speaking of ZT clones I just went through a less than nice experience on here with a "trusted seller" which I don't know what that means anymore because they sold me a clone and they're supposed to know what they're doing. If I hadn't bought another real 0562 I would have been out over $260 for a $50 knife he did refund my money but he was kind of an ass about the whole thing but unfortunately it's too late for me to change my feedback with that being said I hate clones all they do is screw up the market if people want to buy them great just don't get on here and talk about it and tell me how wonderful they are because until you really get hosed I don't think it concerns a lot of people. I've never wanted fake anything when I see people buy fake purses and shoes that I'm friends with them and I tell them why don't you just save up and get one that's real instead of owning 5 fakes??? My opinion is I don't think people would like clones if they ever got stuck with one that was supposed to be real my rant is over.

Sounds like a counterfeit, not a clone.
 
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