Pistol/dagger project

tmix said:
Bruce, not to come off as an A**, but, I'm afraid you are mistaken about some things.
Any person who can own a firearm, can make a firearm. You are allowed to transfer the firearm to another person, but there are a few requirements you must meet to do so. Please see BATFE regs. for the specifics.
I believe what you mean by "another weapon" is actually "any other weapon", or AOW for short. Knife/gun combos fall under this classification. A person can build an AOW, however it requirers a $200 transfer tax be paid to the .Gov and various pieces of paperwork approved be and sent to the BATFE before you can build the firearm. Even an AOW can be transfered to another person, if the proper paperwork and procedures are followed.

The key point I want to make about your post and your build itself is that, a muzzle loader is not considered a firearm. Muzzle loaders are not regulated by the BATFE. You can buy one over the internet and have it sent to your house without any paperwork. So, you build is perfectly OK in the eyes of the .Gov. However, state laws might be different, depending on where you live.



Here is an FAQ on NFA(AOW's included) weapons. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt
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Thanks much for the government link on the matter. The bottom line is I'm OK right? If I cant make these things I will just strap on a Burger King apron.
 
Bruce Bump said:
It is possible it will blow up when I proof it and will need to be replaced. The wall thickness is about .125" in the thinnest place. Hey its this kind of thing that makes it exciting!:eek: To proof the barrel I will overload it by at least 25%. Black powder is tame until it gets a heavy bullet or an extra thick patch and the bullet it forced extraordinarily hard down the bore so proofing is needed for saftey. Pyrodex is the new black powder and works good with less corrosiveness.
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Bruce-
Though I really doubt you'll have any problems with your piece, I'd seriously encourage you to do some further research on proofing black powder guns. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a 25% margin of safety. Proofing standards varied by country, but in short they were much heavier. As in, around a triple charge of powder. Conversely, I've seen some proof loads (can't find the reference now) where it was a double charge of powder and a double amount of lead/shot, or something like that. Even a slight bulge in the barrel from these loads, and it would not pass.

All the serious black powder shooters I've conversed with agree that Pyrodex may be easier to clean, but is actually much more corrosive than real black powder despite claims by the manufacturer. FWIW.
 
bruce....a quick question for you.....i know most if not all of the works of art are never used ....however....if you were to use them regularly would the gunpowder or anything else discolor the materials....say you had ivory grips or something like that....ryan
 
the possum said:
Bruce-
Though I really doubt you'll have any problems with your piece, I'd seriously encourage you to do some further research on proofing black powder guns. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a 25% margin of safety. Proofing standards varied by country, but in short they were much heavier. As in, around a triple charge of powder. Conversely, I've seen some proof loads (can't find the reference now) where it was a double charge of powder and a double amount of lead/shot, or something like that. Even a slight bulge in the barrel from these loads, and it would not pass.

All the serious black powder shooters I've conversed with agree that Pyrodex may be easier to clean, but is actually much more corrosive than real black powder despite claims by the manufacturer. FWIW.
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I havent proofed this barrel yet but in the past I have doubled the charge with no problem whatsoever. I have filled the entire barrel and jammed a bullet in with no problems on a short barrel. It spewed out unburnt powder because the bullet wasnt in the barrel long enough to burn and build dangerous pressure. I wouldnt try doubling or tripling on a long barrel. I will be surprised if it bulges but if it does I will make a thicker wall one. A heavy bullet will build more pressure. I havent weighed my bullet yet but its about 3 times heavier than a round ball.
100_0941.jpg

Here is the bullet with the patch. Its heavy and will be a good test for the proofing. I'll let ya know what happens.
 
Bruce Bump said:
I havent proofed this barrel yet but in the past I have doubled the charge with no problem whatsoever. I have filled the entire barrel and jammed a bullet in with no problems on a short barrel. It spewed out unburnt powder because the bullet wasnt in the barrel long enough to burn and build dangerous pressure.
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Hey, sounds good man. That's what I figured.

I wouldn't try doubling or tripling on a long barrel.
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These figures were for long barrels. Some quick googling turned up the Birmingham Proof House info, regarding shotgun barrels. (mostly damascus at that time, I'm assuming) A normal max charge for a 10 ga shotgun was 4 1/2 drams of powder and 1 5/8 oz shot. A heavy proof load used the same amount of shot with 12 3/4 drams of powder. (2.8 times the normal charge)
 
Bruce Bump said:
Thanks much for the government link on the matter. The bottom line is I'm OK right? If I cant make these things I will just strap on a Burger King apron.
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Just so you know, that is not a government link. You can go to the ATF's website and try to search there.
The bottom line is that I think you're OK. 98% sure, anyway.
Like I said in the original post, I'm not a lawyer or ATF agent. So don't take my word as gospel.
If you want to be absolutely sure, contact an attorney who deals with these matters. Especially if you plan on selling these to customers.
 
Before you test that I am in the will for the grinder right???

LOL Bruce Let me know when you test it I would like to see that if I am awake.
 
ryan9977 said:
bruce....a quick question for you.....i know most if not all of the works of art are never used ....however....if you were to use them regularly would the gunpowder or anything else discolor the materials....say you had ivory grips or something like that....ryan
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The flash area around the nipple can be discolored on ivory. Its best to have metal in the surrounding area. Bluing will wear off there from scrubbing the gun clean with solvent and soap and water. The design of the gun should be to keep the grips back far enough from harms way.
 
I modified the front bolsters for the better I think. They are smaller, lighter and tapered now.
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Here I am drilling the mounting holes. They are 2-56 slotted stainless screws and will be counter-bored.


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Here I'm matching and contouring the rear bolsters with a foredom. Front and rear bolsters are made from 1018 mild steel surface ground to minimize gaposis.


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Tapering and contouring rear bolsters to a sea shell shape.


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Dremel with a small cut-off wheel to cut deep narrow grooves in the sea shell pommels. I tried a file but they wont go around corners very well. This method seems to work good.


Next shots will be the finished shell pommels.
 
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This is turning out really cool! I am enjoying the machining shots. I wish I had a milling machine and lathe- maybe someday.
 
Bruce - could you go back to before the thread ever started and talk about how you got to page 1. What kind of steel did you use for the stock and blade? What steel is used for the lock (trigger/hammer) ? what for the barrel?? What for the spring? How did you heat treat the barrel? -the spring? How do you determine how thick the barrel walls need to be to keep the gun from exploding when fired? Did you forge the billet to get the bend for the pistol grip? Hope I'm not asking for too many trade secrets :eek:

Jacque
 
jacqueeagonsr said:
Bruce - could you go back to before the thread ever started and talk about how you got to page 1. What kind of steel did you use for the stock and blade? What steel is used for the lock (trigger/hammer) ? what for the barrel?? What for the spring? How did you heat treat the barrel? -the spring? How do you determine how thick the barrel walls need to be to keep the gun from exploding when fired? Did you forge the billet to get the bend for the pistol grip? Hope I'm not asking for too many trade secrets :eek:

Jacque
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Jacque, I thought about talking about prior to pic #1 but youre the first to ask. This dagger is cut from a sword that I was going to make. I forged it from 52100 steel I bought from Rex Walters. He is the guy that Ed Fowler buys all his 52100 from. I planned to make the sword with pistol built into the handle much like it is now but that was about 3 years ago and I decided to finish some past due customer projects before continuing on my pet project "The Shooting Sword". I kept picking it up and sighting down it and scratching my head how I was going to take out the bends it had. I finally decided that it was too long for me to heat treat with the equipment and lack of experience I had with long blades so I cut it off at about 11" blade length for a dagger. Daggers I can make, pistols I can make and I've been thinking about it for a long time to have the top and bottom guard to be the hammer and the trigger for the pistol.

The hammer and trigger are cut from 1/4" thick Starret precision ground O1 steel. The handle is milled out oversized to accept them and a spring. The spring is still questionable as to whether I will even use it or make another. It is spring stock from Brownells and was heated and quenched in Parks 50 oil and tempered at 666 degrees for 30 min. Its a good spring but may not be strong enough to snap a cap every time. Dan Gray sent me some more 1095 to make a new spring from.

The barrel is made from 1018 mild steel and isnt heat treated. It is about .125" thick at the thinnest place and should handle the proof loads. I'd be surprised if it cant handle the pressure from the test fire. If it blows I will make a better one.

The handle bend is forged to shape. I wish I had pictures of the forging but I didnt have a good camera at that time. I sure like our new camera.
The pommel is cut out on my band saw. There was allot of grinding to true the frame, pommel and blade. Quite a bit of surface grinding too. All the slots are cut with a Keyway cutter.

No trade secrets on this one. Its been really fun showing the progress here.
Thanks for asking, I appreciate your questions.
 
I'm pretty sure some guy named Bruce Bump owes me a 10" damascus dagger blade!!!! :eek:

;) :p


This is awesome Bruce... it feels very rewarding to know you as a friend and see your work progress to THIS level over the last 7 or 8 years. This is very big league and I certainly hope you are enjoying the position you are carving out in this area of bladesmithing!!!

Keep it up my friend!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :cool:
 
NickWheeler said:
I'm pretty sure some guy named Bruce Bump owes me a 10" damascus dagger blade!!!! :eek:

;) :p


This is awesome Bruce... it feels very rewarding to know you as a friend and see your work progress to THIS level over the last 7 or 8 years. This is very big league and I certainly hope you are enjoying the position you are carving out in this area of bladesmithing!!!

Keep it up my friend!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :cool:
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Nick I offered to buy you another Thunder-forged blank :D
 
Keith_H said:
Thank you for the link, do you or anybody else know how to get a decimal of an inch using that program?

I like the thick stock, Bruce.
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You should be able to pick a basic starting template from preferences. In mine there are various choices for architectural or metric. You can also pic no template.

To set the units for the model, open the model info window (should be in the windows menu). Click units. There should be a pulldown for the format and precision. Just set it for decimal and inches.
 
kneedeep said:
You should be able to pick a basic starting template from preferences. In mine there are various choices for architectural or metric. You can also pic no template.

To set the units for the model, open the model info window (should be in the windows menu). Click units. There should be a pulldown for the format and precision. Just set it for decimal and inches.
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ah thanks, I didn't see the decimal option.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Jacque, - - - - -, I appreciate your questions.
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maybe I ask too many - you're probably about ready to test your pistol on me!!

hammer and trigger - O1 steel - - - do you heat treat them or just use the steel as it comes from the factory??

Spring steels - could you offer a discussion on you opinions - 5160 is probably the most famous - used in car springs for a hundred years - you don't seem to be too fond of Brownell's - 1095 is your second choice, but, it's given to you, it appears, by a friend. What's your best choice and why??

I thought the tempering temperature of 666 was interesting - - - the 'number of the beast' - Revelation 13:18 - wanna address that? (or am I opening a can of worms??)

Regards,
Jacque
 
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