so how do y'all like your seax?

The study of history is what it's all about. Learning....

These objects speak to us. We hear independently & share. Lucky to share such a knowledge base, isn't it?

We're fortunate to have them- wish I could afford a mail vest, for example.

But I bet a HI seax could pierce it.


Ad Astra
 
Hawkwind - please take a minute to read the design thread for the H.I. Seax. If you have trouble finding it, I can look it up for you. Do a search on "seax" in this form and go back a year or so.

When you've read it, then we can talk about the design particulars of the H.I. Seax. ;)


(firm but friendly post) :D
 
AA,

Dont let money stop you from having mail. khukuri_Monster made an entire vest out of steel wire. Do a search on it, or e-mail him. Its neat stuff, but heavy. I might get him to make a square of it for some penetration tests.

I mentioned it earlier, but I'm working on a 52100 broken-back seax. I plan on using Wenge for the handle, it just seemed right. Its nowhere near done, but when it is, I'll try posting some test results on it here. Anyone know where to find cheap human torsos?
 
I only made that chainmail because I was extremely bored.... it was a long process. You just take some 12 or 16 gauge wire, wrap it around a dowel, and then cut rings off. Connect the rings, and viola, chainmail.

Hardly traditional, and the rings would surely bend apart if you poked something through them. They are not welded closed. So, I doubt the usefulness of testing this faux chainmail.
 
Daniel, I believe I read this one while ago.

Jebediah: I will try something at our battle in the spring. Howewer nobody has riveted chainmail, so I think non riveted will pierce rather easilly.
 
Then you understand why the Seax was designed the way it was....it is not a historical piece. Neither are probably 80% of what Bill carries.....there's a bigger picture here. That's all I'm saying.
 
I know. But what I said was : "I liked to see more accurate version from HI" or something like this. I think blade is quite fine, just the bolsters and handle would need reworking.
 
hawkwind said:
Jebediah: I will try something at our battle in the spring. Howewer nobody has riveted chainmail, so I think non riveted will pierce rather easilly.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'll just try some leather squares. What do you think would be the closest things available today to ancient armor?

And have fun convincing anyone who owns rivited mail to let you put a knife through it ;) .
 
This issue has come up a few times and generally speaking, I've held my tongue about it. I apologize to be dragging you into this - though, you did open the can of worms very willingly. :D


If you want an historically accurate piece, I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere. There are plenty of options. Heck, make your own. I have. ;)


What we're discussing here....is the Himalayan Imports version of the Seax - made in a way that reflects Nepalese handicraft....not English weaponry. Take it or leave it.



...just the bolsters and handle would need reworking.
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I would love to see you take yours and give it a new handle, friend. It would not take much to reduce the tang to a hidden tang and slap on a piece of antler. Put in a pin, and/or a buttplate and you'll be good to go.
 
Yeah I did some shooting with arrow through various non riveted mailies, they are easy to repair.
We have tried also to cut pig with sword (dead already) to see the efect of various cuts on flesh and bone and as I remeber also with big knife.
I have tried to shoot viking wooden shield with my heavy bow and I shot it through even when it was twice as thick as it should be (2 cm).

I thing that leather if used was probably hardened either cooking in hot water or with hot wax.
This could be more piercingproof than mailie, but I havent tried this.

The later term for this armour is cuir-boilie.
 
The pig would be much harder to cut after it had been dead for a while. Was yours fresh?

The way something pierces a shield would seem to depend on how the grain of the wood runs. I've heard that Vikings painted their shields to conceal the grain.
 
Daniel I dont have HI seax and the one I posted while ago is blunted reenactors piece, but with correct handle (for lets call it slavic variant).

As you are tempting me here is one I made out of much longer seax (sharp) which broke. The handle is prepared for some serious carving. Instead of butcap there is a horn seal. I just didnt wanted to post this one, since its not finnished.
The blade will be either etched, or something then.

http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/seax1.JPG
http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/saexcap.JPG
 
hawkwind said:
I thing that leather if used was probably hardened either cooking in hot water or with hot wax.
This could be more piercingproof than mailie, but I havent tried this.
Click to expand...
The Plains ndns used hot, hot, sand to harden their shields according too what I've been told. They weren't as reformed as the European shields but were very effective. If not hit straight on the could repel quite a large ball from a musket.:eek:
The skin of a buffalo hump was most desirable because it already had the curved shape prefered.

It's been my understanding that there were three kinds of chainmail. There was the forge welded, rivited and then the plain which was just loops of steel meshed with one another.
I'm not sure which would be stronger, the welded or rivited. If the welds were all good then I would lean that way but too be on the safe side I think I would've trusted the rivited more unless I was well aquainted with the smith.;)
 
I like it, hawkwind. Be sure to post when it's finished.

I did ask Bill about getting the handle carved....had all sorts of fancy ideas in mind...but ultimately it came down to "What can be do that will be (nearly) foolproof for died-in-the-wool kamis to make?". So, we ditched the carvings.

Now that I think about it...we should have had Ferrous do the carvings (since he was doing the etching already).
 
Yvsa said:
The Plains ndns used hot, hot, sand to harden their shields according too what I've been told. They weren't as reformed as the European shields but were very effective. If not hit straight on the could repel quite a large ball from a musket.:eek:
The skin of a buffalo hump was most desirable because it already had the curved shape prefered.

It's been my understanding that there were three kinds of chainmail. There was the forge welded, rivited and then the plain which was just loops of steel meshed with one another.
I'm not sure which would be stronger, the welded or rivited. If the welds were all good then I would lean that way but too be on the safe side I think I would've trusted the rivited more unless I was well aquainted with the smith.;)
Click to expand...

Arent those ndn chest protector things supposed to stop a ball? Those white ones that hang over the neck? I have no idea what they are called.
 
Good stuff in this here thread. In no particular order:

Hawkwind - good stuff all around. The closest I ever came to cutting up and eating a pig with a seax was slicing up a pork loin at work a few weeks ago. It was the best pork loin I'd ever had, the seax picked up a nice patina, and a good time was had by all but it just wasn't the same. We need a pig next time. My boss has some pigs. Maybe if I sweet talk him enough...Gorgeous seax you have there, by the way. That handle is outstanding.

Yvsa - cool stuff. Lest anyone disregard the protective abilities of leather, fur, or any other natural materials, remember that there were difficulties reported during the Korean War with the .45 ACP and .30 Carbine against the heavy winter clothing of the Chinese soldiers.

DK - I like to think of the HI seax as the "updated" version. I still think that it would make a pretty good utility knife in the field if one could only have one sharp object for everything, even today. (Come to think of it, it wouldn't make a half bad bayonet either.) I'm not convinced that the lack of a guard is a crippling defect in either a tool or a weapon. (For knives, anyway. Swords are another matter.)

KM - Manufacturing a lorica hamata is on my to-do list but I doubt that I'll have the patience to do it by wrapping wire and I know that I don't have the patience for riveting it; I'll probably wind up using washers with half whole, half split. Of course I'll have to whip up a few sample patches for testing...err, to practice with, first. It would be nice to make some traditional samples of armor to test but I don't think that I have the time. If, on the other hand, any army in the history of humanity ever used armor comprised of alternating layers of paper thin aluminum and water, let me know - I have a few things to say about that and they're not good.

Jeb - as for leather armor, just get some thick leather - it doesn't even have to be boiled - and place it on a firm but yielding backing, then have at it. From what I've seen, whether cutting or thrusting, if the blow doesn't land well there may still be enough force to cause an injury but it won't be life-threatening; as I understand it, this is exactly what armor (even today) is expected to accomplish. It actually makes for very good protection if treated properly and backed with padding. The efficiency of full suits of articulated metal armor should be evident both by the weapons made to defeat them (with varying degrees of success) and the techniques engineered to use them, all of which are detailed in any number of fechtbuchs. The production of weapons to smash armor (axes, maces, some pole arms) should suggest itself, but some of the techniques of employing existing weapons (like half-swording) aren't all that intuitive. A lot of people devoted a lot of thought to the problem and a good number of techniques for fighting in harness seem devoted to either disarming the enemy or throwing him to the ground so that he could be finished off while helpless...not what we picture chivalric combat to be, but that's evidently what at least some of the instructors of the time were teaching. Armor was hot, heavy, and expensive. (Again, this is still true today.) If it didn't work, people never would have bothered with it.
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
Arent those ndn chest protector things supposed to stop a ball? Those white ones that hang over the neck? I have no idea what they are called.
Click to expand...
Jeb the breastplate was initially made to stop a knife thrust not a ball. And if the opponent turned his knife sideways it became pretty much useless. The chokers favored by so many New Age folks and wannabes because they're pretty and look cool was also originally made too protect the neck from a knife cut. They were better than nothing at all.;)
It's perfectly all right if a mountain man or other rendevouer/enactor wears one.:cool: :D
 
Yvsa said:
Jeb the breastplate was initially made to stop a knife thrust not a ball. And if the opponent turned his knife sideways it became pretty much useless. The chokers favored by so many New Age folks and wannabes because they're pretty and look cool was also originally made too protect the neck from a knife cut. They were better than nothing at all.;)
It's perfectly all right if a mountain man or other rendevouer/enactor wears one.:cool: :D
Click to expand...


:( I don't have any neck to speak of> Yeah, I know , don't end a sentence with a prep. :)
 
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