Steels descriptions in Jay Fisher website

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patrickguignot

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Jay Fisher is a well known custom knifemaker with a huge website (hundreds of pages). He is fan of 440C steel and it's interesting to read the pages about steels and heat treating and cryo on his site.
However some of his descriptions of steels seems surprising.

I'm not a specialist but I regularly read the articles from Larrin on Knife Steel Nerds and I found contradictions between these two sources.

Some examples :

1) Jay Fisher wrote about D2 steel here :

In deep cryogenic treatment, D2 becomes another animal. DCT increases the wear resistance of D2 up to 820%! Over eight times the wear resistance of conventional or even sub-zero heat treatment is an astounding result, and it has been proven over and over again in numerous scientific studies how profoundly D2 responds to this procedure.​

But this affirmation contradict completely this Knife Steel Nerds article about cryo : Cryogenic Processing of Steel Part 3 – Wear Resistance and Edge Retention.

2) Jay Fisher wrote about about M390 steel here :

M390, made by our German friends at Bohler. This is a high chromium steel, made for high corrosion resistance, and the foundry does not recommend the steel be any harder than 56-58 Rockwell. With it's low carbon, and low recommended hardness, it's not expected to have high wear resistance.​

On Knife Steel Nerds we can see the CATRA results for M390 and they are very good (180 compared to 100 for 440C). And the tempering charts (with subzero treatment) available from Bohler clearly show 61-62 HRC to be the optimum hardness (page 11 of this pdf) and not 56-58 HRC.

3) Jay Fisher wrote about about 3V steel here :

CPM3V is a shock resisting tool steel, and is not wear resistant enough for any knife blade (but a machete).​

It's strange to describe CPM3V as not wear resistant enough and at the same time to promote 440C. The CATRA result is 126 for CPM3V at 61 HRC and only 100 for 440C at 59HRC. You can of course decide you prefer a stainless steel over CPM3V...but rejecting it because it's not wear resistant enough and opting for 440C is surprising.

So in conclusion I don't know what to think about Fisher's website. There is a ton of technical info here...but is it reliable?
I don't want to be inflammatory, just to know if the articles on his site only reflect the normal and respectable preferences and idiosyncrasies of a knifemaker or if these articles are wrong.
 
Well, considering the m390 claim of "low carbon" and "low factory recommended HRC" leading to "low expectation" of wear resistence, all completely contradicting the actual technical data from Voestelpine (Bohler-Uddeholm), and the 1.9% carbon content of m390 being anything but low.

Coupled with his statement regarding 3v's wear resistence "not being suitable for any knife other then a machete"; while I have never ventured into reading Jay Fisher's steel descriptions, he already lost any and all credibility with me on those two completely absurd, (and utterly false) statements already. Thanks for sharing, now I know one more source where to NOT go if I'm looking for any actual reliable steel descriptions based in real world facts...

And fwiw, I still really like good 440c as well... Just not enough to justify completely falsifying claims about other steels...
 
Jay Fisher makes knives. That places him a horse's head further (at least) than any "steel expert", in my book. Don't get me wrong : I appreciate Larrin's posts. They are informative. But I still tend to believe greater knowledge comes from forging and finishing a blade.
 
herisson said:
Jay Fisher makes knives. That places him a horse's head further (at least) than any "steel expert", in my book. Don't get me wrong : I appreciate Larrin's posts. They are informative. But I still tend to believe greater knowledge comes from forging and finishing a blade.
Click to expand...
Jay doesn't forge his knives.
 
Credit where it's due: there are certainly a ton of words on his website. He is a prolific writer, no doubt. But I would double check some of the claims that he makes.
 
[Jay doesn't forge his knives.]
This certainly takes some weight out of his statements. Sad, because I like his knives.
 
[Stock removal is a perfectly acceptable way to make knives.]
Of course ! But it certainly gives you less understanding of the steel than forging and tempering it... then grinding it to shape. Sort of the 100 % vs the 50 %...
 
herisson said:
[Jay doesn't forge his knives.]
This certainly takes some weight out of his statements. Sad, because I like his knives.
Click to expand...
He does stock removal, which is just as good. Forging is not a requirement for understanding steel, nor does it necessarily result in a superior knife.

The real problem with his site is that he has a distressing amount of information on it which is either cherry picked to support his outlandish claims, or is just completely, demonstrably wrong.
 
Would you say he is "opinionated" ? Of course he is. He is vocal about what he likes, like many others. I understand that and always carry along the proverbial bag of salt grains.
 
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Larrin's knowledge is usable information to improve knives and understand how things work.

There are hundreds of makers, myself included that put Larrin's knowledge to work. I would not be able to push the boundaries without his valuable contributions.

So I'm a little upset to hear you say that Larrin's information is not as valuable to you.

It's hard work to share USEFUL knowledge at that level of detail and should be respected.


Jay's information on his site is just advertising for his knives. Good for him. That's his hustle. If you like his knives go for it.

By the way, if you think a high performance knife has to be forged there is more reading and research to do.

herisson said:
Jay Fisher makes knives. That places him a horse's head further (at least) than any "steel expert", in my book. Don't get me wrong : I appreciate Larrin's posts. They are informative. But I still tend to believe greater knowledge comes from forging and finishing a blade.
Click to expand...
 
herisson said:
Jay Fisher makes knives. That places him a horse's head further (at least) than any "steel expert", in my book...
Click to expand...

So just for clarification sake; do mean to tell me that in "your book", you believe a person who purchases said slab of steel(s) xyz, and uses it for any specific application in say making a knife, (forging/finishing), is a "horse's head further" then the "steel expert(s)" who actually studied the science and chemistry and properties behind the bonding of said metals/alloys at specific %'s and temperatures, and who originally designed said steel(s) for any number of specific applications in the first place. Not to mention the one's responsible for initially "forging" said steel to make the slab of xyz in the first place, and the ones who even construct the initial heat treat recipe and parameters for said steel(s) to achieve any one of the desired properties like maximum working hardness or toughness, which then a knifemaker simply buys and "reforges" and finishes, (since not many knife makers are out there smelting their own iron ore and/or arc melting billets into alloys, let alone vacuum melting their own PM alloys)?

Or was that just a tongue in cheek reference to the "steel experts" that every regular joe seems to be after using a few knives in a cut test, like tuesday morning couch quarterbacks who are all "experts" on the game and what a team shoulda-coulda-woulda done in order to win?

Because the real steel experts, the metallurgists, who create the alloys, for everything from knives, to buildings, to space exploration, they are certainly a few horses heads further then any knife maker.

I do agree however, (most) reputable knife maker's, from experience working the steel alone, (even stock removal), and especially if they dabble in their own heat treats, should be a horses head (or 2) further then any self proclaimed "expert" who only uses the finished product...
 
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Craftsmen are good at crafting things.
They are not always the most knowledgeable about the materials they use to craft their creations.

I have read laughably wrong "facts" over the years from craftsmen of all sorts of different items.
Their products were still great, but damn, were they wrong about so many things. :D
 
Holly crap, that is a huge piece of sh*t out there...

Thank you very much for showing me that "huge website" is not worth reading! Jesus, reading that website would waste me so much time... (Even though I don't even know that web site exists before seeing your post, but I may in the future encounter it. And look, it already wasted me 5 minutes by searching online and read M390's spec to find out that hardness statement is false...)

Fast information sharing from the Internet is a double edge, sometimes you just don't know what you read is garbage... Need more posts like this to avoid garbage information.
 
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When I was looking to buy a knife for myself, I remember I'd just stop reading when I'd see 440 and skip to another knife hoping I won't see another 440 or "alphabet soup".

This guy is spitting on CPM-3V for some reason, probably because it isn't corrosion resistant. I really wanted a knife in CPM-3V badly, but apparently not badly enough to pay as much as they cost (out of my predicted budget).
D2 isn't completley corrosion resistant either, yet he is having really good words for it, this tells me that he probably only has good words about steels he is fond of for some reason.
 
B-b-but...

"I am committed to making completely and clearly the best knives in the world."
--Jay Fisher

CLEARLY.... the (self proclaimed) best knives in the world!!! He's committed to it!!!

Surely that's worth the extra pretty pennies?

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to bash the guy (too bad), as He is clearly doing his thing, AND he is actually making knives it appears, so kudos to him for that alone, AND he appears to be at least making some half decent knives, nice handles, bolsters, filework, etc. But that said, 10 minutes browsing his site and I have absolutely zero interest in anything he touches...

He seems arrogant AF, his boldly (false) claims regarding certain steel types as "facts" (according to him), makes him sound like a completely ignorant fool, and where I come from humility goes a very long way, even when you are arrogant, because when you really are the best at something, other people will say it enough so that you won't have to, and your reputation will speak for itself. So all his "holier then thou" claims like he is the final truth sayer regarding all things knives, has got me completely turned off to anything he touche . because I've not once heard anything from anywhere saying "Jay Fisher knives" are better then........?
- Busse, or Big Chris, or Carothers, shoot Bradford, Buck, KaBar, for christ's sake, not even vs. a Kershaw?
If he was in fact committed to making, "the best in the world", then I gotta wonder why his name is not synonymous with the Winkler's and Mueller's and Sinkovich's, Chris Reeve's and RJ Martin's, Hinderer's, Emerson's, Marfione's, or even Stryder? Or 2 dozen more I could name just off the top of my head...

So when he boldly claims he is "the best", with little to back it up outside of self posted customer views which stroke his sad little ego, and makes grossly misguided claims regarding steel types that contradict not only every other reputable source available, but also my very own personal experiences, I have a very hard time taking Jay Fisher knives serious at all on any level, let alone at the price point he apparantly thinks his work (and opinion) are worth...
I would litterally spend that money on any other known knife maker in a similar or even lesser price point, or even the local unknown guy at my local flea market who forges railroad spikes, if not solely for their humility alone...

But if someone wants to gift me one, I will eagerly video tape a torture test of the most epically brutal kind, to see just how it really stacks up!!!

Can it cut through a boot and a cinder block, and yet still slice through a vine ripened tomato with ease???
 
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