SURVIVE! Bushcraft Knife (GSO-4.5?)

My next question will be about edge shape.... How does a maker like Guy research how much "belly" and where to put the tip in relation to the handle center line? For the 4.5 or other models. Is there any written materials that explain the biomechanics or the other factors that help decide how the lay out a blade shape?

Well, I'm not Guy, nor a knifemaker, but you can certainly search the forum (particularly the Maker's section) for opinions on such things. Here's my take:

Biomechanics deals with the user, more specifically the user-knife interface, i.e. the handle as a means of controlling the blade, this feeds into ergonomics. You want a handle designed to maximize control for the tasks expected while minimizing awkwardness or discomfort - not too long, not too short, not too straight, not too round, not too square, etc.


Blade shape/profile in relation to the amount of belly and position of the tip have more to do with the intended use of the blade - different designs are better/worse at different tasks depending on their geometry. Take for example the Stockman-pattern knife - 3 blades:

1) a long clip-point with lots of belly and a tapered, narrow point - not quite as "pokey" as a trailing-point but stronger, though not as strong as a straight-point or drop-point but usually more pokey, it's a balance of designs that works well for various chores. The tip is usually well in front of the handle.

2) a smaller spey-blade - stronger tip but shorter blade in general, the "clip" is sudden and severe at the tip, dropping it from being "pokey" to more of a controlled slicing shape like a #10 scalpel, perfect for delicate cutting and skinning. The tip is often nearly in-line with the handle.

3) a sheepsfoot blade - a straight edge, no curve to the belly, with a very strong tip, excellent for carving/whittling tough materials.

Each blade has a specific purpose or range of uses outside of which it isn't as proficient, e.g. the clip-point and spey-blades aren't as good for whittling, the sheepsfoot less desirable for skinning or food-prep, etc.

The position of the tip in relation to the handle can effect how the tool is used for, say, stabbing actions. We are intuitively used to stabbing at objects as if the tool is a straight stick with the tip directly in line with whatever we are holding - if the tip is "dropped" or "clipped" from that line, then our aim will be off unless we compensate. This is why spear-point blades are preferred for such use. This doesn't mean that a slightly off-center trailing or clip or drop-point blade won't work, it just isn't the optimal design. If comparing two drop-point blades for "stabbiness", the thinner and more centered tip will be preferred. A more forward point is preferred for gouging/digging or precise piercing (think of the sheepsfoot whittler), a trailing point is preferred for avoiding piercing.

Guy's designs are mostly "drop-point" though they tend not to begin the drop until a ways up the spine, and the points fall nicely in line with the handle, giving all an intuitive "stabbiness", yet they tend to have sufficient belly for skinning/slicing tasks, sufficient straight-edge for carving - they designs are generally well rounded, clean, simple. Exceptions include the Neckers and yet-to-come GSO-12 with more specialized aspects.

That's enough from me, I'm sure Guy will have his own (and better) reasons. :thumbup:
 
Notes, yes, copy and paste into a reference note book... Great idea!
 
All this reading doesn't seem to be making my pair of 4.5's get here any sooner...
 
Sounds awesome. Please make it a true scandi without a micro bevel & I'd be interested in a 3,5" version as well.
 
Well, I'm not Guy, nor a knifemaker, but you can certainly search the forum (particularly the Maker's section) for opinions on such things. Here's my take:

Biomechanics deals with the user, more specifically the user-knife interface, i.e. the handle as a means of controlling the blade, this feeds into ergonomics. You want a handle designed to maximize control for the tasks expected while minimizing awkwardness or discomfort - not too long, not too short, not too straight, not too round, not too square, etc.


Blade shape/profile in relation to the amount of belly and position of the tip have more to do with the intended use of the blade - different designs are better/worse at different tasks depending on their geometry. Take for example the Stockman-pattern knife - 3 blades:

1) a long clip-point with lots of belly and a tapered, narrow point - not quite as "pokey" as a trailing-point but stronger, though not as strong as a straight-point or drop-point but usually more pokey, it's a balance of designs that works well for various chores. The tip is usually well in front of the handle.

2) a smaller spey-blade - stronger tip but shorter blade in general, the "clip" is sudden and severe at the tip, dropping it from being "pokey" to more of a controlled slicing shape like a #10 scalpel, perfect for delicate cutting and skinning. The tip is often nearly in-line with the handle.

3) a sheepsfoot blade - a straight edge, no curve to the belly, with a very strong tip, excellent for carving/whittling tough materials.

Each blade has a specific purpose or range of uses outside of which it isn't as proficient, e.g. the clip-point and spey-blades aren't as good for whittling, the sheepsfoot less desirable for skinning or food-prep, etc.

The position of the tip in relation to the handle can effect how the tool is used for, say, stabbing actions. We are intuitively used to stabbing at objects as if the tool is a straight stick with the tip directly in line with whatever we are holding - if the tip is "dropped" or "clipped" from that line, then our aim will be off unless we compensate. This is why spear-point blades are preferred for such use. This doesn't mean that a slightly off-center trailing or clip or drop-point blade won't work, it just isn't the optimal design. If comparing two drop-point blades for "stabbiness", the thinner and more centered tip will be preferred. A more forward point is preferred for gouging/digging or precise piercing (think of the sheepsfoot whittler), a trailing point is preferred for avoiding piercing.

Guy's designs are mostly "drop-point" though they tend not to begin the drop until a ways up the spine, and the points fall nicely in line with the handle, giving all an intuitive "stabbiness", yet they tend to have sufficient belly for skinning/slicing tasks, sufficient straight-edge for carving - they designs are generally well rounded, clean, simple. Exceptions include the Neckers and yet-to-come GSO-12 with more specialized aspects.

That's enough from me, I'm sure Guy will have his own (and better) reasons. :thumbup:

The professor has spoken!!

Great write up c.g!!!
 
Sounds awesome. Please make it a true scandi without a micro bevel & I'd be interested in a 3,5" version as well.

Guy has strayed from a scandi grind because of the issues he's found with it don't meet his standards. If he feels that something he builds will fail in the field he won't produce it.
 
Chiral, thank you for posting. I have learned so much from you and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
 
Does that mean a secondary bevel for strength?
I don't know if you'd call it strength, stability, chip resistance, or something else entirely. :)
The higher the angle at the bevel the more durable the edge becomes. My Mora runs a Scandi grind at 25 degrees per side (DPS).
A more typical edge angle runs between 15 and 20 DPS, although I have at least one custom that was sharpened at less than 10 DPS.
If you look at Chiral's posts you discover that the durability of these edges drops off really rapidly as the angles decrease,
but the slicing performance increases at those lower angles as well.
Apparently Guy tried a Scandi grind and didn't find it durable enough for his purposes and refused to sell them.
I don't know the angle at which he ground those Scandi knives.
Later on he came up with a design that is calling a Bushcrafter that is going to have a very thin secondary bevel.
I'm looking forward to getting one of these in hand to see just how well it slices! :)
 
Ellie, I'll gladly give assistance where I can, as will most anyone here, as you may already be able to tell :) If you post a link to this subforum on your contact-page or facebook account or somewhere else obvious, you can direct people to our community here. :thumbup: Bladeforums doesn't charge anything to join or post questions, it's a way for you to try and disseminate answers quickly *shrug* We love what y'all are doing and want others to be interested as well. If you need our help, we're here!

I definitely link to BF often, in both emails and facebook comments.


Notes, yes, copy and paste into a reference note book... Great idea!

I can help with that: http://surviveknives.com/gear/rite-in-the-rain/
 
I don't know if you'd call it strength, stability, chip resistance, or something else entirely. :)
The higher the angle at the bevel the more durable the edge becomes. My Mora runs a Scandi grind at 25 degrees per side (DPS).
A more typical edge angle runs between 15 and 20 DPS, although I have at least one custom that was sharpened at less than 10 DPS.
If you look at Chiral's posts you discover that the durability of these edges drops off really rapidly as the angles decrease,
but the slicing performance increases at those lower angles as well.
Apparently Guy tried a Scandi grind and didn't find it durable enough for his purposes and refused to sell them.
I don't know the angle at which he ground those Scandi knives.
Later on he came up with a design that is calling a Bushcrafter that is going to have a very thin secondary bevel.
I'm looking forward to getting one of these in hand to see just how well it slices! :)

TY for the explanation!
 
I finally pulled the trigger on the preorder, with all the recent nonsense and bs i could no longer in good conscience wait to pay, besides id rather not be last to ship. my order number is exactly the difference of 3400 between my 5.1 starter and my 4.5 preorder. both orders end with the same last 2 digits, i see this as a good thing.
 
I finally pulled the trigger on the preorder, with all the recent nonsense and bs i could no longer in good conscience wait to pay, besides id rather not be last to ship. my order number is exactly the difference of 3400 between my 5.1 starter and my 4.5 preorder. both orders end with the same last 2 digits, i see this as a good thing.

Very cool, for pulling the trigger and the numerical, fateful confirmation!
 
I was going to wait till last minute myself then the nonsense ramped up and i figured i should continue to support them not only with words but my wallet. I'm just really hoping it will be here by sept 15, if not oh well, i knew what i was getting into and it will eventually arrive and i will be ecstatic when it does.
 
The Bushcraft appearing in September would be consistent with the schedule so far.
I'm basing this on the 5.1 starting production in May and units beginning to ship in December.
So, if the Bushcraft starts production in February and requires the same lead time the knives would begin shipping in September.
I'm wondering what will happen because they started with the most popular knife and are working their way down to less popular models.
This might mean that their work load will actually be decreasing over time, which might mean that things will go faster.
Since they acquired a lot of new equipment this year they'll probably settle in a bit next year as well as they get over the "teething pains".
I am looking forward to seeing how 2016 works out!
 
The Bushcraft appearing in September would be consistent with the schedule so far.
I'm basing this on the 5.1 starting production in May and units beginning to ship in December.
So, if the Bushcraft starts production in February and requires the same lead time the knives would begin shipping in September.
I'm wondering what will happen because they started with the most popular knife and are working their way down to less popular models.
This might mean that their work load will actually be decreasing over time, which might mean that things will go faster.

Since they acquired a lot of new equipment this year they'll probably settle in a bit next year as well as they get over the "teething pains".
I am looking forward to seeing how 2016 works out!

Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I don't think the 4.5 will go into production for months to come. I'm not 100%, but I think the 5.1's were cut in July. If that is true, you can see what the process has been like to hopefully finish in February. If each model takes a similar time frame, it is realistic to expect more of a wait. If I see my 4.7 in February, I'll be ecstatic (like seriously freaking out with joy), but if not I realize there is good reason for whatever wait I have in store. If you look at the production schedule, the 4.5 is still a few models down on the list.

I'm sure things will speed up as they go and like the part of your quote that I put in bold, that is a very encouraging idea that I did not take into account! Regardless of wait, I'm glad I made an investment and have my "place in line" for the blades I ordered.
 
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