Thoughts about pre-orders

I understand the drawbacks to preorders ... but I also think only a very small percentage of people that have been introduced to CPK knives would have been exposed to CPK if not for the preorders ...

I think there would be maybe 25 or 30% that would own 90% of the product and many that would have simply given up trying after a few fails in the frantic Friday sales ...

maybe it's kind of a double edged sword ... but I know without preorders I would own exactly one CPK (through a proxy only) ... instead of the 8 that I currently own ...

and I have learned to not take time from working or doing other chores to try to claim a spot in a 20 knife sale as I have never come close ... it's just not a realistic source for me ...

so I hope the preorders don't go away ... I would like to continue to support CPK and get knives I can use ... but I'm afraid without preorders I will probably have bought the last CPK that I would be able to ...
 
I like the pre orders. It allows a person the ability to buy without having to be a speed demon on the computer. I do wish the money wasn't asked for at time of order as finances don't always align with the open pre order. That or possibly keeping the pre order open a little longer to build funds. Maybe a heads up thread to announce a pre order coming up so folks can be ready?
 
JJ_Colt45 said:
I understand the drawbacks to preorders ... but I also think only a very small percentage of people that have been introduced to CPK knives would have been exposed to CPK if not for the preorders ...

I think there would be maybe 25 or 30% that would own 90% of the product and many that would have simply given up trying after a few fails in the frantic Friday sales ...

maybe it's kind of a double edged sword ... but I know without preorders I would own exactly one CPK (through a proxy only) ... instead of the 8 that I currently own ...

and I have learned to not take time from working or doing other chores to try to claim a spot in a 20 knife sale as I have never come close ... it's just not a realistic source for me ...

so I hope the preorders don't go away ... I would like to continue to support CPK and get knives I can use ... but I'm afraid without preorders I will probably have bought the last CPK that I would be able to ...
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I hear you
 
Since you have expanded you operation by increasing your CNC centers, hired more employees, have more concept and projects on the "white board" and will possibly be looking for more shop square footage, I really do not think that sole marketing by using BF.com is going to meet the increased supplies. I am a numbers guy as numbers stick in my head; discarding the Comp Chopper and the K18 as very exclusive outliers (40 units and about 100 units respectively) everything else has been selling between 200-300 units on here before the BF market starts to saturate.

If you aspire to sell 500+ to 1000 units of any pattern, I think that unless you are prepared to carry stock on shelves for longer periods of time (something which I would personally dread) you will have to expand your marketing horizons so why not complement and supplement it all by not only doing your signature Fridays sales and limited number of pre-orders (maybe a couple per annum?) for the semi-custom work which you can and must offer (the knuckleheads in here luv to personalize their knives) with some other online presence (you are intrigued by the idea of your Amazon shop which is fine) and finally upping your own website game.

IMHO, the biggest hurdle is not much of a hurdle for you, i.e, producing and offering excellent and well engineered cutlery pieces. It's how you improve the way in which you offer them which is the artful part of the deal.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
but how am I going to offer things like a swedged or 90° spine Field Knife without a pre-order? Just make them and hope that I make the right amount?
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yes, exactly. Making stuff always involves speculation.

Do your sprint runs and collect your data beforehand, use a mailing list, this forum and Istagram to gauge interest and numbers. Perhaps issue your regulars a code that allows them access to your web store before the general public and do it first come first served, everything left over goes live on the webstore for anyone to have a crack at

$.02
 
I thought it was alright before pre-orders...I didn't have a lot of trouble scratching my CPK itch.

I'm ok with the pre-order model as a consumer of CPK models...

Advent of pre-order era seemed to coincide with new equipment rolling in at CPK, hiring new help, more new & innovative models coming off the drawing board sooner. I kinda feel like pre-orders helped subsidize that a little tiny bit-- maybe I'm looking at it amateurishly. But I think that's cool. I trust Carothers Crew with my meager pre-order funds-- no one twisted my arm to front the loot. They've proven to be good stewards of what I've entrusted them with.

Free market capitalism in a pretty pure form, IMHO. I admire it. I really like that it's being talked about openly.

I wouldn't begin to offer suggestions on how to run your Co.-- just speaking as Joe CPK Buyer....

It's a simple thing for me...if I get to where I can't hang with the CPK policies, I'll cash in my chips and move along. That's what I did with a certain company that's just barely surviving :eek: ATM.
 
I’m actually a little confused at why pre orders are so risky??? Money upfront, clear schedule of work.... fairly low risk to the maker methinks. Risk to the purchaser... well I suppose if CPK went tits up... but otherwise??

Not sure I’d own a single CPK without the preorder format. I currently own five. I’m from a different hemisphere and have little to no change of scoring at the Friday sales. I stopped trying altogether after multiple failed attempts. And the time difference frankly sux.

Amazon; My wife and I are in the process of opening up an Amazon business. Being based in the USA and manufacturing yourself would certainly make it easier and de-risk it compared to manufacturing in China and exporting to the US. One thing I will say though, you need to understand Amazons rules and play by them... and they change often and without notice. Bare in mind they are a juggernaut and you are a spec. They can and will lock down your account for the most minor, insignificant error and it can take weeks to get sorted whilst you hemorrage lost sales income. They have the exposure second to none and the customers are theirs not yours. Understand all that and you should be ok. More than ok since your product is so great. Good luck guys.

Lawrie
 
Lorien said:
yes, exactly. Making stuff always involves speculation.
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So I'll give you a perspective from a 25 year veteran retailer on the subject of custom and/or preorder along with the topic of having a storefront (online or brick & motar).

CARRYING INVENTORY
Somewhere you'll want to carry stock product, core patterns in core scale materials. How much get's into capital outlay and how much money you want to be tied up in merchandise you can't pay bills with. I would think you would need no more inventory in any item than the lead-time on producing that item. So say it takes 4 weeks to make FK2's, you probably need to own less than 4 weeks of sales supply of FK2's. Technology has made this easier by using historical sales to project future sales, so you could know what to own in each stock pattern. Stock scales and hardware could be handled similarly, although now you're talking multiple scales on multiple patterns adding to money tied up in inventory.

WHERE YOU STOCK IT
Really doesn't matter, but you'll want to way the costs of the service you want to provide, whether in-house or 3rd party. Picking, packing, shipping, along with communication can be tedious starting from scratch figuring it out, although, you've been doing a fantastic job so far so it's scaling up and training which would be the pain point. Or farm it to an expert, Amazon or whoever, deliver them product and they take care of it and charge you a fee. Comparing the fee per knife to in-house per knife is not easy but can be done. What you're really paying for (with a third party) is your time back not having to deal the operational logistics of the business. One cannot get away whenever you want if you have to ship everyday, but a third party allows you to bring a laptop and take care of business worldwide.

CUSTOM ORDERS
Feels like you'll need to carry inventory in pre-heat treat blades in all patterns along with special scale material and hardware. Again, how much and what options depending on what type of financial outlay you'll want tied up in partially finished raw materials. But again history could tell you how much to carry here as well based on how long it takes to fill orders.

PREORDERS OF STOCK INVENTORY OR CUSTOM
Can come from existing stock on hand or special planned runs. Should plan these out on a calendar so you have materials or inventory available to manufacture if necessary.

RAW MATERIALS
You'll need a good system of keeping stock of raw materials as well, especially if you're going to stock yourself or a 3rd party with inventory. Don't want to turn around to run FK2's and have no 3V or Stock Scales or hardware. Again like everything else how much cash do you want tied up in raw materials.

I've done this for a living on 100K different Styles, Colors, and Sizes in 1000's of stores across the country. Computers help BIG TIME, but your goal should be satisfy the customer that wants to buy whatever they want with a minimum cash tied up in hard inventory raw or finished. No retailer has EVER gone bankrupt because they had too little product on hand. Usually it's the loan(s) on the inventory or strategy(ies) that bankrupts them.

If you want to pick my brain on something specific or any scenarios drop me a line anytime.

Noah
 
I trust in the CPK group and in whatever they decide suits their vision of what they want it to be ...

you have always treated your customers with respect above and beyond what most do ...

it's for selfish reasons I hope the preorders don't go away as it has been my door into CPK and with each purchase it has just reinforced what an excellent product you are offering ...

and I think you would be hard pressed to find many that haven't had the same experience ...

but ultimately it is your baby .... and how it fits into your plans for today and down the road I will respect whatever decision is made ... and I will still do my best to support CPK and to get in on the knives I can use as best I can in whatever sales model it ends up being ...

so I would follow your head and heart and your picture of what makes it fun and worth all you put into it at the forefront ... you have a faithful following that grows each time some new knife lover gets ahold of your work ...

make sure that it is enjoyable for you and not stressful ... we are all going to still love the crew and the products you give us ... and things have a way of working out ...

- JJ
 
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However I can get a swedge and 90 spine on a FK variant I am in.... really my only dislike of my knives is not having that spine squared off as a scraper for firesteels, bark, cleaning weapons and tools, straight edge for marking lines, etc.
I often even sketch on some measuring lines on the big knife to use in the field; imagine if they were milled in! Imperial and metric on either side... brain is spinning already
 
Amazon sucks, don’t use them.

I think you would be best off setting up your own web store, or using a small number of quality dealers like Great Eastern Cutlery uses.

With D3V you don’t really need a 90 degree spine, the edge of the blade is plenty tough enough.

But, a simple semi-circle scraper notch on the spine might be easier to do and works really well.

I say keep doing pre-orders until and unless there is a problem with the process.

Is it time to order the CPK OSS lapel knife and the Carothers boar spear?
 
I like the pre-orders for all the same reasons everyone does but I get that its not the best idea to keep doing something that has the potential to go wrong in a lot of ways and is just a general pain in the ass.

Involving a third party for distribution could free up a lot of time for you and additional exposure from getting your brand on amazon is a nice plus however you’d have to investigate the pains of dealing with amazon as others have mentioned and whether the cut a third party takes would be manageable.

Setting up your own webstore ((may)) end up being cheaper in the long run although it’ll be at the cost of giving you more responsibilities rather than alleviating you of them although Id think there might be less curveballs coming your way then is possible when moving things out of house.

Making the basic models in black or natural canvas available for order on a website and then after two months or some period of time, opening a pre-order with the ability for additional scales and whatever other modifications you may want to offer seems to me like the ideal path for making customers happy and at least reducing the heart ache and risks of pre-orders by a fair bit.

Guess you just gotta figure out whether it will be better for you to have that shelf stock and website being handled by you or if you can get a third party involved to deal with all that rubbish without too many new problems.
 
I'm sorry Nathan but I skipped some responses, from you also. It doesn't matter to me because I trust you, I trust Jo, I trust your good name. I think your preorders with a smattering of early sales is smart. You show good sense, given and giving your phenomenal good will.

Keep doing what you do, please.
 
If the pre orders are huge pain, I think it's high time the CPK family settles into a business model that is easy on them.

Maybe when a new model is released, Nathan could put out a statement, that he is going to keep making them till consumer interest is exhausted: so I would envisage something like this :
for example, when the DEK comes out, keep doing the Friday sales in batches of 10 to 20 every week till the sales slow down, and when they do, make a pre announcement and do a single extended over the weekend sale and then the model is done. This would quieten the anxiety of guys like me who cant type fast to save their lives because I know sooner or later, I am going to get the knife I want. Now this will work on your mainstream models but the ultra specialized blades like the KOD I guess will still require a pre order.
Now if it is more exposure you want, then
1. Maintain the current website with certain phrases (? taggable phrases). Here maybe the Google savvy folks can help out: so if Joe Schmo wants a hard use knife and he types in hard use knife, CPK and D3V should pop up in the first page of search results( Google uses algorithms and some mumbo jumbo to figure out the site rankings when relevant search terms are used; like I said someone well versed in Google - fu can help you on this). And the information in the website has to be more flowing(it looks a bit bare bones at present), like in the About Us page you folks should mention who you are, what steel you use, and why and maybe a few links to some of the torture test videos that you have done( even though I see some of the videos are posted under the specs of the knives) . And have a clearly marked Available Section on the website which tells the consumer which knife model is actively being sold on bladeforums and an "upcoming models " section which gives a tentative timeline of when the next model is coming out.
2. webstore( in your website): After the bladeforums sales run of a knife model is over , then stock some number of blades as u see fit in the webstore( with the understanding that this is probably not going to contribute towards your immediate income if sales are slow ). The webstore is for the individual who stumbles across your website, is impressed by what he reads and orders the knife off the store, has a great user experience and then recommends it to the people around him. When stock runs out, restock(if at all feasible. I am assuming that when one model is on the bench, then you wont be able to interrupt the setup for another one) or update the "for sale" section and point them towards the bladeforums cpk/for sale/trade subforum if they are still interested in the knife model which is sold out.
3. Amazon webstore: maybe its just me but I am not seeing any upside to having an Amazon store. Your regulars should be used to the bladeforums sales model ,and those who are not and come across your Amazon store are not going to spend 350 $ on a knife which they know nothing about(unless either form of the webstore is geared towards the individual who knows about CPK, does not like the bladeforums sales model, just wants to buy a knife without the hassle of following the weekly Friday sales to see if he had scored or not)
Regardless of my ramblings above, I believe that the CPK forum sorely needs a sticky titled " navigation for the newbie " . Here you explain the Friday sales(and its etiquette- dont order more than one knife of a new model till you say it is ok, how to ask for a proxy, putting up/buying a CPK knife on the secondary market, caring for/sharpening D3V etc etc)
Count yourselves lucky that I am feeling sleepy now
 
My .02...my wife and I run a small business with our own unique product line which we sell on our own website and on Amazon, and Amazon can be a real PITA... it's a very obtuse and hierarchical bureaucratic structure rife with pitfalls, and they also rake in a pretty healthy cut of your margins. I doubt we will continue with them past the end of this year. Your MMV. I vote for the longer/larger open Friday sales on standard models and pre-orders for custom work. You could also opt to engage a third party fulfillment company on the back end to pick/pack/ship your sales from your own website...(edit) should note that my pre-order opinion is based entirely from my preference as a consumer---no idea what logistically it would entail for your shop...
 
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Keoneloa said:
My .02...my wife and I run a small business with our own unique product line which we sell on our own website and on Amazon, and Amazon can be a real PITA... it's a very obtuse and hierarchical bureaucratic structure rife with pitfalls, and they also rake in a pretty healthy cut of your margins. I doubt we will continue with them past the end of this year. Your MMV. I vote for the longer/larger open Friday sales on standard models and pre-orders for custom work. You could also opt to engage a third party fulfillment company on the back end to pick/pack/ship your sales from your own website...(edit) should note that my pre-order opinion is based entirely from my preference as a consumer---no idea what logistically it would entail for your shop...
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^^^This makes the most sense to me:thumbsup:But then again "What the Hell do I Know":D
 
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