Tidings and the return of Schatt and Morgan?

Schatt & Morgan knives in the late c20th early this century were I think, mainly stainless steels of some kind.

HEMI 49 HEMI 49 points about laser cutting are excellent and give bearing on how a stainless range could be made possible, in time. Since GEC has more or less turned its back on any stainless offerings of any volume, I'd argue there is certainly a market for Traditionals that are not all carbon. Yes, I know, somebody will pop up and say it's the key GEC's successful business model, ergo it has to be followed ;) Not necessarily .

It is the initial releases that Cooper makes that are crucial: Will they be available in any volume? Will they be different from GEC knives and have their own identity? Will they be allowed out of the factory in good order and finish? Which patterns from the large Schatt catalogues can be released? Will substance triumph over image/nostalgia factor?

The Premier range of knives were indeed interesting and also came in very attractive knife-boxes, many worthwhile patterns and jigging, it could be a good starting point. Or to use some examples from the yearly series which pre-dated the Heritage range- a range that did not live up to its potential or hype, lesson to be noted there.

Wouldn't be a bad idea for us to continue with a kind of 'wish-list' for what we would like to see, you never know who's reading ;)
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I gave away a Premier Jack all stainless and Spear master with nice jigging to a member who hasn't posted for years...I wouldn't mind another one :D
 
Wishing Mr. Cooper much success and hope we see some good quality blades. I do think there is a market for traditional knves made with a modern stainless steel, hopefully ones that are good users that can be economically cut, maybe with a laser or water cutting. With the purchase of the equipment, I would think that the first ones would be carbon steel, to get his feet wet and test the market first, and then maybe see where it takes him. I like my GECs, but the ones I got are from the secondary market, the costs are a deterrent for me. So I see a potential market for traditional with a modern steel, there is a niche there between Case and GEC, someone mentioned about the 120.00 range but it would be tricky to get the quality with a good price. Hopefully Mr Cooper can find the right combination.
 
brownshoe said:
Queen used 440C (called Queen steel) for many years, D2 heated by Peters for awhile, ATS34 and 420HC (I think) for S&M. There was always some 1095 too. Daniels maybe did some 1095 for S&M.

The proof GEC is about marketing is in their new useless BS knife with a beard comb and Vienna sausage fork...hipsters delight :)
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I'm sorry you weren't able to grab one, but I'm about over your attempts at insulting those of us who like it. You aren't even objectively correct, given that the Beer & Sausage is actually VERY useful. However, since you weren't able to score one and are lashing out at others, I'll give your lack of understanding on this a pass.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Forgive me as I'm not intimately familiar with the S&M history but were they predominantly 1095?

The number of folks I've seen here on the Porch rail against stainless and how inferior it is and how "non traditional" it is, combined with GEC's overwhelming use of 1095 makes me wonder why Mr. Cooper would not use it. Super simple steel to process and apparently the "real" traditional people crave it. Why buy decades old equipment and then change the steel? Especially when GEC says it is too hard on their equipment. An assertion I still don't understand. I get tool and die wear if that is what they mean. Not questioning it, just saying I don't understand what that means.

I have no idea what Mr. Cooper's vision is or his execution plan, but if he's buying up all that stuff, then it suggests to me, that in terms of manufacturing, he's trying to replicate whatever S&M was at it's peak. Old equipment or not, that had to be a sizable investment. If he wanted to inject something truly new into the market, why not start small and buy newer stuff?

I know this will ruffle many feathers, but I think the entire GEC thing is 80% marketing and 20% quality. Sure, if the quality wasn't there, and I fully acknowledge it is, then the rest couldn't happen, but he's created the market. It isn't unlike Spyderco sprint or exclusive runs only that's all GEC really does.

Why would Mr. Cooper try to compete with that? Why not pick a few patterns in the ole tried-and-true carbon steel, execute them well at reasonable prices and see how the market reacts? Get your sea legs, pay off the investments, and see where the tides take you.

Just my rambling thoughts...
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I agree with much of what you've said, however, in mentioning GEC being "80% marketing and 20% quality." you're kind of getting into what I was inferring in my previous comments about fit, finish, and QC. If these new Schatt & Morgan's aren't excellent knives for the price points they set, this new company isn't going to last. Also, at the price point that Mr. Cooper will almost certainly need (or want) to set, these new S&M knives WILL be collectibles. In fact, I presume that's his main goal. Make new S&M knives that are of good quality, and charge GEC or near GEC prices for them, so as to capture the discretionary income of those folks who have nostalgia about the old S&M from some years ago. As business plans go, all he needed to do was look at what people willingly pay for GEC knives to realize that if the quality, fit, and finish could be set to a high standard, the guy is going to make money.

I would disagree about GEC being 80% marketing and 20% quality. I don't even know if I've ever seen an ad for GEC knives that weren't being posted by people who are enjoying theirs on social media. Sure, they post on their website, but if I have to go to your site to see your product, I don't really consider that marketing at a high level. Also, people tend not to enjoy things that aren't quality, so that tells me that the quality IS the marketing factor. After all, not many companies have experienced this surge of new people all clamoring for their product at once. GECs have become collectibles far more than being something that someone who just needs a knife would buy. Someone who goes into Academy Sports, or Dick's Sporting Goods or Wal-Mart isn't there to spend $115+ on a GEC (and they aren't available in those places anyway), they are going to buy a $35 Buck and call it done. So, clearly, GECs aren't being marketed to just the regular guy who needs a knife and wants a traditional. I would say that I doubt that the new S&M knives will be for that particular customer either.

You mention GEC being rather like another company's sprint runs, I think it's more a situation of "Back in the old days, we'd release a run of knives, several covers, some number of hundreds of each one, and that was enough." to sell, and keep product on the shelves for a bit. Obviously, we know that today, that's not nearly enough. Most GEC drops sell out in seconds no matter WHAT they are. That says that the market wants this product, and wants far more than GEC is able (or willing) to make. I don't know that marketing is responsible for that. There are plenty of other factors that could be brought into play, a few of which would go against the "We don't discuss modern knives here." rule. I'll just say that a lot of the trends in modern knife design COULD be responsible for the resurging interest in Traditional knives. I certainly know that I myself fall under that banner.
 
Quiet said:
I agree with much of what you've said, however, in mentioning GEC being "80% marketing and 20% quality." you're kind of getting into what I was inferring in my previous comments about fit, finish, and QC. If these new Schatt & Morgan's aren't excellent knives for the price points they set, this new company isn't going to last. Also, at the price point that Mr. Cooper will almost certainly need (or want) to set, these new S&M knives WILL be collectibles. In fact, I presume that's his main goal. Make new S&M knives that are of good quality, and charge GEC or near GEC prices for them, so as to capture the discretionary income of those folks who have nostalgia about the old S&M from some years ago. As business plans go, all he needed to do was look at what people willingly pay for GEC knives to realize that if the quality, fit, and finish could be set to a high standard, the guy is going to make money.

I would disagree about GEC being 80% marketing and 20% quality. I don't even know if I've ever seen an ad for GEC knives that weren't being posted by people who are enjoying theirs on social media. Sure, they post on their website, but if I have to go to your site to see your product, I don't really consider that marketing at a high level. Also, people tend not to enjoy things that aren't quality, so that tells me that the quality IS the marketing factor. After all, not many companies have experienced this surge of new people all clamoring for their product at once. GECs have become collectibles far more than being something that someone who just needs a knife would buy. Someone who goes into Academy Sports, or Dick's Sporting Goods or Wal-Mart isn't there to spend $115+ on a GEC (and they aren't available in those places anyway), they are going to buy a $35 Buck and call it done. So, clearly, GECs aren't being marketed to just the regular guy who needs a knife and wants a traditional. I would say that I doubt that the new S&M knives will be for that particular customer either.

You mention GEC being rather like another company's sprint runs, I think it's more a situation of "Back in the old days, we'd release a run of knives, several covers, some number of hundreds of each one, and that was enough." to sell, and keep product on the shelves for a bit. Obviously, we know that today, that's not nearly enough. Most GEC drops sell out in seconds no matter WHAT they are. That says that the market wants this product, and wants far more than GEC is able (or willing) to make. I don't know that marketing is responsible for that. There are plenty of other factors that could be brought into play, a few of which would go against the "We don't discuss modern knives here." rule. I'll just say that a lot of the trends in modern knife design COULD be responsible for the resurging interest in Traditional knives. I certainly know that I myself fall under that banner.
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It's a fair point on the marketing Forrest. Poor choice of words on my part. Business model or approach would've been better. Simply meaning, they produce a certain amount of a run and then move on rather than having a core of continuously made models with slight variations. It creates a market, or demand, and is obviously very successful.

I also agree that without very reliable quality, none of the rest would matter or work.

Also, if Mr. Cooper makes a S&M stainless steel knife with a beard comb, I am 100% in! :)
 
Eli Chaps said:
It's a fair point on the marketing Forrest. Poor choice of words on my part. Business model or approach would've been better. Simply meaning, they produce a certain amount of a run and then move on rather than having a core of continuously made models with slight variations. It creates a market, or demand, and is obviously very successful.

I also agree that without very reliable quality, none of the rest would matter or work.

Also, if Mr. Cooper makes a S&M stainless steel knife with a beard comb, I am 100% in! :)
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Ok, first of all, the line for an S&M in stainless with a comb forms behind me, I'll have to buy a few of 'em if they make them in clip-points!!!!

Ahem, whew, anyway, no need to apologize. Frankly, the situation surrounding GEC is something it's been awhile since I'v seen happen and it seems like a crazy situation. A huge new wave of people suddenly wanting the product of a company who hasn't really made many strides to increase production has resulted in every new product being a feeding frenzy or "lollyscramble". I can certainly see how this would be offputting for folks who are longtime fans. I don't know why GEC hasn't essentially tripled their production numbers. I recognize that there are any number of completely understandable factors as to why they haven't, but it doesn't stop me from wishing they would or could. There are a few leftovers still at dealers from past runs that ended up being not as popular or desirable, but it'd be awesome if they put out a huge drop of a model everyone is slavering for, like the #74, or the #47, or the (insert your favorite model here!!). Like, you see an amazing preview for a knife coming up on their site and on drop day, BOOM there's like 5,000 of each cover released. Everyone who wants one gets one in all the covers they want, and the only people who wouldn't want that to happen are those folks who have a stake in buying as many up as they can and charging others egregious amounts of money for the "privilege" of buying one after they're all gone from dealers.

And well, I just don't care about the feelings of scalpers. :D

Now, I think S&M are proooooobably going to do small runs for the foreseeable future, and here's why. The downside to what I discussed above is that if GEC DID do that, just crank out a huge number of a model, they run the risk of having a "miss" in their long string of "hits". Right now Dealers are probably regretting having purchased so many red micarta #97s, as an immediate example. Or a #62 in a couple different covers, as those are also still widely available. So, GEC probably will not ever produce knives in those types of numbers, because they don't want to have their dealers stuck with a ton of knives they can't sell. Their "stock" with the market would probably drop pretty quickly. Well, same with NuS&M. I don't think Mr. Cooper is going to flood the market with knives that he's not sure will sell. After all, there are still plenty of people whose main and most recent memory of Queen/S&M is "Crappy build quality, so no thanks." He has to overcome that, and so he's got a pretty hard task ahead of him: put out knives which are all hits, and do so repeatedly for some time. I don't envy him the task, candidly, but do hope he can do it.
 
cudgee said:
From what i have read and seen posted on different forums, that was the problem with the demise of the Cutlery industry in the once great Sheffield. There was/ is a distinct lack of young people wanting to enter into the industry, and therefore the decline of the industry. I really hope that this is a very successful venture, i will be on board for a good well made, USA knife, so wishing all concerned the best of luck.
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I don't think I'd every buy anything mass produced in UK especially from the 60's-80's..

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If the knives can be made up to the quality standards of GEC but stainless of some sort I'll pay happily GEC prices. If I were the king of the knife world I'd have them keep their patterns limited a stockman, a trapper, a barlow (3-2-1) keep the quality high and have more modern cover options jigged animal parts are about as ugly as you can get. Find some nice exotic wood's for the high end and nice micarta for the normal and color match the bolsters i.e. brown wood's get brass bolsters not nickel.
 
I don’t know anything about machining or tooling or even how to use them correctly in a sentence, so maybe somebody with more know-how could answer my question. Is it possible that making stainless knives on the old machinery is one of the factors that led to the poor fit and finish? We’ve heard that GEC doesn’t do much stainless because it’s hard on the machines. Is it the type of thing where the machine is either working or broken or is it the type of thing where they get worn and tolerances change that could lead to problems in assembly?

I’m glad to see another company making a go at it. I hope it works out.
 
sitflyer said:
The truth is nobody but Mr. Cooper knows what his vision and plan is, and even "if" he will be able to get this venture up and running. It would be nice to see a rebirth of the Schatt and Morgan branding, but in what form that happens is just crystal ball gazing at this point. We saw how the rebirth of Canal Street Co-op played out...
It makes me wonder how the first runs will come to market? Do they have a plan for distribution and how large will the runs be?
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A FB post says Mr. Cooper is already up and running, knives are being produced as we speak. And they expect the first knife release to be ready for sales early 2021.
 
Sacto said:
I don’t know anything about machining or tooling or even how to use them correctly in a sentence, so maybe somebody with more know-how could answer my question. Is it possible that making stainless knives on the old machinery is one of the factors that led to the poor fit and finish? We’ve heard that GEC doesn’t do much stainless because it’s hard on the machines. Is it the type of thing where the machine is either working or broken or is it the type of thing where they get worn and tolerances change that could lead to problems in assembly?

I’m glad to see another company making a go at it. I hope it works out.
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I spent a 37 year career working with copper and copper alloys...... We did very little with stainless other than components for Navy mine sweepers which had to be non magnetic..... Stainless is commonly machined into all types of components.... The nasty side of it is a trait to work harden during machining........ Example would be drilling a hole with a dull drill will work harden the material in front of the drill..... It can become so work hardened that you will have to resort to carbide tooling to complete the hole.......

The only thing that might challenge "old" machines would be punching the blade blanks..... The shear force for stainless should be higher than for 1095 relative to same thickness stock...... Also I believe the die set clearances for stainless would be different than for 1095 as it has different shear characteristics....... Thus specific die sets would be needed to shear stainless stock.... Also the punch presses that holds the die sets might not be rated high enough for stainless......

The rest of the factory should be capable of the machining operations necessary to make a pocket knife..... In the world of machining, making the components for a pocket knife would be considered light duty.......
 
Sacto said:
I don’t know anything about machining or tooling or even how to use them correctly in a sentence, so maybe somebody with more know-how could answer my question. Is it possible that making stainless knives on the old machinery is one of the factors that led to the poor fit and finish? We’ve heard that GEC doesn’t do much stainless because it’s hard on the machines. Is it the type of thing where the machine is either working or broken or is it the type of thing where they get worn and tolerances change that could lead to problems in assembly?

I’m glad to see another company making a go at it. I hope it works out.
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I don't think the 440C is significantly harder to work with than 1095; although they do need to do a bit of a re-tool. Now D2 or the harder steels make a big difference; and the defect loss is a good bit higher according to a conversation I had with Bill at one point in the past. The demand is simply not there for a lot of 440C. It is talked about a lot; and wished for just as much. But when it is actually produced at GEC if the quantity is significant - they do not sell nearly as well. There are some small runs that have been snapped up quickly since it has become few and far between. But back when GEC was producing SS knives in quantity; they were sitting on shelves for months while the 1095 were moving around them. Some will disagree; but when you are a small dealer and your inventory is required to turn over - you have a fairly good understanding of what sits and what does not. If they made a run here and there - they would be applauded and the knives would surely sell quickly. But the latter is true of 1095; so why lose time at the factory to change over for SS when there are more people complaining about short runs than stainless steels?

Regarding S&M itself; I still have outstanding patterns in 420HC (their keystone steel prior to DFC) on the shelves that I purchased over a decade ago.
 
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This knife sums up the situation!

priced per blade, its a bargain
 
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cudgee said:
Keep me updated, i'm a neanderthal with facebook and such, that is why i'm always behind in what is going on around me.:eek:o_O:confused::):thumbsup:
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With this crowd, you just got to hang around, they will snoop out any on goings and post them here ;)
 
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