Too "Snooty" for an economy sodbuster?

[sticktodrum]

I've seen this take place in the modern folder world, over the course of the last few years. Have spoken about it with some manufacturers as well at Blade Show the last couple years. It's an interesting thing, the way the baseline expectations increase each year. The ongoing cycle of rising quality, incorporation of features, and the arbitrary standards of reviewers, it's an uphill climb of snoot.

I noticed a lot of the arbitrary "should" type of thing in reviews of traditional knives, like the flush back spring at half stop, the need for absolutely no gap at any point, or the need for micrometer precision in the flushness of springs liners and covers. Stuff that doesn't really have to do with the function of a knife, but more so a mark of higher end talking points.

*Shrug*

 

[Will Power]

I've got a Queen Country Cousin in D2 that I paid roughly $30 for. I am very satisfied with the quality. I'm dont think anyone should expect perfection at that price point and are doing a disservice to the industry when they nitpick "work series knives" on social media.

One of my great knife bargains was a Country Cousin too, that and a Delrin handled Barlow in 1095 from Queen. Not just , "OK for the money and you can't expect much ..." No, both knives were solidly made, good W&T arrived sharp, centre blades no play and very minor gaps. The Country Cousin is a far better work-knife than CASE's jr sodbuster in my experience. Better shaped blade and vastly superior steel. However, more expensive Queens have paradoxically displayed basic errors in finish and annoying 'issues', not all mind but some.

So, I think there's always a market for an inexpensive but tidy finished knife that pretends no more than being a dependable work-mate. Cheap does not have to mean rubbish quality and unpleasant finish, simple can be very appealing. The thing is, there are cheap and OK knives out there so it could be that a budget better may not really sell that well. The man in the street would likely use/abuse a knife in a manner that most of us would have a fit at: prying open paint lids, trying to cut through thick wire, prising all manner of stuff, sharpening with power tools, leaving it outdoors or in a toolbox with everything else. These types would not want to pay much for a knife either, 30 USD probably already too dear. So that's the paradox, the knife connoisseur/nut will not be abusing knives, may spend a bit on them, have multiple knives aka a 'collection' but they may sniff at the idea of a budget beater. But not all knife addicts are alike An inexpensive user is certainly a satisfying knife in my book.

 

[Bartleby]

One of my great knife bargains was a Country Cousin too, that and a Delrin handled Barlow in 1095 from Queen. Not just , "OK for the money and you can't expect much ..." No, both knives were solidly made, good W&T arrived sharp, centre blades no play and very minor gaps. The Country Cousin is a far better work-knife than CASE's jr sodbuster in my experience. Better shaped blade and vastly superior steel. However, more expensive Queens have paradoxically displayed basic errors in finish and annoying 'issues', not all mind but some.

So, I think there's always a market for an inexpensive but tidy finished knife that pretends no more than being a dependable work-mate. Cheap does not have to mean rubbish quality and unpleasant finish, simple can be very appealing. The thing is, there are cheap and OK knives out there so it could be that a budget better may not really sell that well. The man in the street would likely use/abuse a knife in a manner that most of us would have a fit at: prying open paint lids, trying to cut through thick wire, prising all manner of stuff, sharpening with power tools, leaving it outdoors or in a toolbox with everything else. These types would not want to pay much for a knife either, 30 USD probably already too dear. So that's the paradox, the knife connoisseur/nut will not be abusing knives, may spend a bit on them, have multiple knives aka a 'collection' but they may sniff at the idea of a budget beater. But not all knife addicts are alike An inexpensive user is certainly a satisfying knife in my book.

Well said Will. I believe that many of us have a foot in both camps. I have a Colonial 2205 Military Scout knife that hit the $30 sweet spot (including delivery) that is really a bit nicer in fit and finish than the old school Camillus 1760 it replaced. I ended up using the heck out of it (built in screwdriver for prying and prising, all stainless for no worry carry, and it holds an edge very well). It well exceeded expectations, and I end up carrying it far more than not, simply because I can use it without a second thought.

 

[NJBillK]

I can definitely see it being "marketable" but they would have to create the "market"

Using GEC as an example:
If it was phrased along the lines of, "Made by GEC to GEC standards, but by taking trusted materials that aren't 'trending' now, we can put out a quality knife, built to work and last, that is easier on the wallet. Using D2, and 440C, we can make knives that will last, work as hard as you do, and not require you to tinker with and clean at the end of a long work day."

Now they would have to come out with a new line to suit it. They have Farm & Field, Northfield, et al, now they need one to suit the work-a-day side that isn't covered by the Farm & Field badging. This badging would also denote primarily stain-resistant alloys like D2 and 440C, which have been called for from GEC by many folks. If it is stated a few times that it isn't lacking in F&F, and built to a lower standard, folks will want to give it a shot. Especially if it is affordable.

 

[jc57]

I have a Case black synthetic SS Sod Buster Jr that I bought new a couple of years ago for $20. I have a Queen Country Cousin in D2 with green micarta scales that I bought not that long ago for somewhere around $35. My low-cost Sod Buster needs are pretty well covered there.

Case makes a good number of Sod Busters, in both their full size and Jr. version, for right at $30 and under today. So other than wanting a different steel, the low-cost sod buster market seems aequately served today.

 

[black mamba]

Queen being the only traditional slipjoint maker I'm aware of that uses D2, I want to make these observations. When they made their Country Cousin in D2, they ran around $40 at retail. At the same time, their top of the line curly zebrawood knives of the same size ran around $50-55. Their top of the line knives now run closer to $75. I seriously doubt Queen could market a full sized sodbuster today in D2, regardless of handle material, for less than $55-60. With so many modern OHO available in similar steels for so much less, I just don't believe they'd be very successful. Maybe an import could be sold for around $30, but many US traditionalists wouldn't be up for a $30 import.

 

[eisman]

Do you seriously have any idea how many knives there are available for $30? There are over 400 Sodbusters alone on the bay for that price; and those include shipping! Who cares that they are not your favorite steel? That's seriously cheap, and if you can't afford one of those every time you actually wear out your previous knife then food should be more of a concern than the steel.

There's no money in $30 knives, that's why American knife factories have raised their prices and/or closed.

And those who think shipping should be free need to get a grip. The USPS is bankrupt and living on taxpayer subsidies. UPS has raised its rates 6% a year for the last 5 years and is losing money. Shipping costs, so you either pay to have it shipped, or support a bricks and mortar store (another good way to go bankrupt), or go get it yourself. $10 to have something shipped across the Atlantic is a bargain. Heck, $10 to have something shipped more than 100 miles is a bargain when you think about it.

 

[Bartleby]

Queen being the only traditional slipjoint maker I'm aware of that uses D2, I want to make these observations. When they made their Country Cousin in D2, they ran around $40 at retail. At the same time, their top of the line curly zebrawood knives of the same size ran around $50-55. Their top of the line knives now run closer to $75. I seriously doubt Queen could market a full sized sodbuster today in D2, regardless of handle material, for less than $55-60. With so many modern OHO available in similar steels for so much less, I just don't believe they'd be very successful. Maybe an import could be sold for around $30, but many US traditionalists wouldn't be up for a $30 import.

It sounds like the pattern is similar to what happened to the Sheffield factories, supply and demand has created two separate markets: one for a few small factories focusing on the high end of the market, the other for low cost imports.

 

[AShearer]

A Wright & Son Lambsfoot, steel isn't D2, but it works OK for me. Can be had for under $30, and they sell lots of them

Excellent point Jack.

 

[AShearer]

It seems to me that it is really hard to compete in the US anyway with Chinese cost? That we can still buy a Sheffield made folder for around $35 ( not in stainless) is kind of amazing. I guess they are not up to GEC standards but they're fine. I'm not sure Opinels are really what Mike is referring to, although I don't know? I have several and I beat them up pretty good. But they are not true slip joints of course. Not sure what to think about this? I think Mike's $30.00 knife needs to be $45?

 

[Bartleby]

Excellent point Jack.

Indeedy, one of my favorite imports.

 

[Bartleby]

It seems to me that it is really hard to compete in the US anyway with Chinese cost? That we can still buy a Sheffield made folder for around $35 ( not in stainless) is kind of amazing. I guess they are not up to GEC standards but they're fine. I'm not sure Opinels are really what Mike is referring to, although I don't know? I have several and I beat them up pretty good. But they are not true slip joints of course. Not sure what to think about this? I think Mike's $30.00 knife needs to be $45?

I have noticed that Bear and Son has gone up in the fit and finish department, judging from examples I have encountered. I have been sitting on the fence on getting a two blade Barlow from them (not G2, but it should work). I might go for it to check if they have improved of late. They make some sodbuster patterns as well that may be worth a try.

 

[AShearer]

I have noticed that Bear and Son has gone up in the fit and finish department, judging from examples I have encountered. I have been sitting on the fence on getting a two blade Barlow from them (not G2, but it should work). I might go for it to check if they have improved of late. They make some sodbuster patterns as well that may be worth a try.

there's another idea! Don't have one but does it fit the question?

I realize I did not address the question. I think the upper end of the market is still pretty small compared to more affordable knives. Look at the numbers for Case vs GEC and it's OEM product. Among my group of friends and acquaintances I rarely get out my knives or show off. So I don't see myself as guilty of seeking status. Maybe I am? I don't think we're too snooty. I like to think I'm more discerning.

 

[NJBillK]

Do you seriously have any idea how many knives there are available for $30? There are over 400 Sodbusters alone on the bay for that price; and those include shipping! Who cares that they are not your favorite steel? That's seriously cheap, and if you can't afford one of those every time you actually wear out your previous knife then food should be more of a concern than the steel.

There's no money in $30 knives, that's why American knife factories have raised their prices and/or closed.

And those who think shipping should be free need to get a grip. The USPS is bankrupt and living on taxpayer subsidies. UPS has raised its rates 6% a year for the last 5 years and is losing money. Shipping costs, so you either pay to have it shipped, or support a bricks and mortar store (another good way to go bankrupt), or go get it yourself. $10 to have something shipped across the Atlantic is a bargain. Heck, $10 to have something shipped more than 100 miles is a bargain when you think about it.

One of the main reasons that the USPS is bankrupt is back in 2006, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, mandating that the USPS front the money for 75 years of employee retiretirement benefits - a requirement no other public or private institution faces.


Prior to this they were self-sustainable and weren't costing themselves any money. But now they paying for benefits and retirement for a volume of folks that haven't even been hired yet.
But this is venturing into political banter, so I will not be posting on this further
------
I can agree that there are quite a few cheap import options, but it would be nice to see what could be produced on American soil using common, or less "flashy" alloys and more easily worked materials.

Say Micarta sanded smooth to a 400/600 grit finish without bolsters, satin blades, and other smaller "corners to be cut" without really sacrificing the finished product.



Edited for grammatical reasonings.

 

[Bartleby]

I can agree that there are quite a few cheap import options, but it would be nice to see what could be produced on American soil using common, or less "flashy" alloys and more easily worked materials.

Say Micarta sanded smooth to a 400/600 grit finish without bolsters, satin blades, and other smaller "corners to be cut without really sacrificing the finished product.

This appears to be along the lines of Bear's approach.

 

[Bartleby]

there's another idea! Don't have one but does it fit the question?

They are kind of in the position that Utica/Kutmaster once occupied. They do short runs for others of the knives they make (so perhaps they could do a run a SFO). I saw some trappers and sodbusters at a local hardware store while travelling this summer that were quite well done (checked several). If they had a two blade Barlow, I would have got one. Just saying.

 

[Whetstone39]

Could the market still tolerate a true work knife at a value price point?

I think it depends on what market thIs knife is targeted to - knife enthusiasts or the general public, which are two very different buyers in my opinion.

The general public would probably not be as interested in a sodbuster as something with a lock for the same price, as the lock would likely be perceived as a superior feature.

Knife enthusiasts, especially traditional aficionados, would likely snap them up, of course depending on the finished product. A lot of us appreciate the straightforward and usefull sodbuster design, and a good steel like D2.

Just my $0.02, I'd buy a couple at least

 

[JB in SC]

Not to snooty, but I already have a beater Sodbuster.

Still cuts like a razor...

but a few more sharpenings and it's gonna cut like a saw when I reach those pits!

Then I'll switch over to this...

or this

I love Sodbusters, but the new synthetic ones look like they used a 1x2 for the handles. What in the world got into Case not contouring those handles? The jigged bone version looks nice though.

 

[JB in SC]

I'm actually having this predicament right now - the only knife I currently have is a Victorinox Swiss Army Waiter. I sold everything else I had because my income has been fleeting over the summer, and most of the time, the Waiter does everything I need from an EDC knife. I just like to have more blade when I can. This thing costs $17, though, and so I have a hard time understanding how it can be finished as nicely as it is at that price point, and yet when I want something with just a step up in blade steel to the realm of the stuff we're discussing in this thread, I'm now looking at usually a minimum of 4x that much money, but often a lot more. If I want to go non-traditional I can have something like an Ontario folder with D2 steel for ~$30, but otherwise I'm kinda left hanging, even in the fixed blade realm.

One reason is Victorinox makes about 34 million or so knives per year, everything is automated and 100% repeatable.

 

[knarfeng]

This thing costs $17, though, and so I have a hard time understanding how it can be finished as nicely as it is at that price point, and yet when I want something with just a step up in blade steel to the realm of the stuff we're discussing in this thread, I'm now looking at usually a minimum of 4x that much money,

One reason is Victorinox makes about 34 million or so knives per year, everything is automated and 100% repeatable.

Another factor is the design. SAKs are specifically designed for ease of assembly.
♦ They make a limited number of frame sizes. That means the number of different spring sizes are going to be greatly reduced, so the spring strength is going to be more uniform.
♦ Limited number of sizes also means uniformity when it comes to covers. And the covers are all uniformly made of injection molded plastic that is ready to go as it comes out of the machine. They only have to make a few dies. Want a new color? Change the feed stock. Done. No worrying about fit and finish, or color oddities.
♦ The springs are hidden, so they don't have to worry about gaps. The gaps are there, but can't be seen. So no one complains and workers don't have to fuss about them. Not like a regular stockman or a trapper, where any unevenness of the springs is immediately visible.

Every fit and finish issue that is fixed by the design instead of by individual labor means a less expensive build process. So you get a $17 knife.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good knife, but it is designed to be less expensive to manufacture. Comparing an SAK price to a stockman price without looking at the difference in design is not fair.