Tradional Group Buy

I think that historically knives were a lot thinner than current trends.
Look at the Old Hickory butcher knives, I've got an older 14" that is thinner than 1/8" even under the handle scales.
The 10" and 7" butcher knives are even thinner.
Kephart wanted his sheath knife to be thin enough to cut well and small enough to be handy, of good steel but soft enough to not chip.
The illustration of his preferred knife in my edition of his handbook looks like a skinning knife with a false edge for scaling fish and popping the joints of game.
It is about size of a modern "Kephart" style knife although the blade shape is different.
 
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I'm not really interested in a knife made of 10V. 4v gets my attention just a little but if I had to choose right now 3V is going to be my go to choice out of the CPM steels that are non stainless. I realize it doesn't hold an edge as good as the others but it has a higher impact toughness than the other two and in a thin blade I will take that over the edge holding of the other two. This will be one of my carry knives when I'm moose hunting and if something bad should happen to where this becomes my only knife then I want all the toughness I can get. Yes, I do carry other heavy type knives and an axe but they are not always on me when I'm away from camp or my wheeler.
 
Chris, in which steels you could go thinner than 3/32? Both in terms of the availability of blanks and blade strength/rigidity?
 
I looked into 4V for about 3 hours. There is little information out there about it outside of industrial technical literature and “impressions” from vendors and marketers. It's simply too new. I looked and looked how well it could deal with prolonged exposure to blood, onions, citrus fruits, soil, and standing water and how soon it would require maintenance when exposed to such conditions. Nothing. What I did find was repeated preconditions, disqualifications, and cautions of this steel's ability to deal with exposure. What’s not said is as important as what is said.

I do know 3V doesn't require immediate care after use. It can withstand exposure, and in some cases prolonged exposure. I’ve used this stuff for years, it’s easy. I’m done, onto thickness.
 
You made the best Kephart pattern I've ever owned so I'd be down for a Nessmuk pattern. :)

B
 
alfred mcdougal said:
I looked into 4V for about 3 hours. There is little information out there about it outside of industrial technical literature and “impressions” from vendors and marketers. It's simply too new. I looked and looked how well it could deal with prolonged exposure to blood, onions, citrus fruits, soil, and standing water and how soon it would require maintenance when exposed to such conditions. Nothing. What I did find was repeated preconditions, disqualifications, and cautions of this steel's ability to deal with exposure. What’s not said is as important as what is said.

I do know 3V doesn't require immediate care after use. It can withstand exposure, and in some cases prolonged exposure. I’ve used this stuff for years, it’s easy. I’m done, onto thickness.
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This is what deters me from 4V in this particulat knife: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1354873-4V-3-5-quot-blade-edc-user
 
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ma tumba said:
This is what deters me from 4V in this particulat knife: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1354873-4V-3-5-quot-blade-edc-user
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EDIT: having said that I realized that I just got my Spyderco mule in 4V :). So I used it to cut a lemon and left it alone for 5 minutes with lemon juice on the blade. Then I wiped it clean and I can see ZERO evidence that it has been exposed to anything wet. It is absolutely clean without any hint of staining. I dont have any carbon steel or 3V at hand to make the comparison but I am open to your suggestions for further corrosion resistance tests of 4V.
 
ma tumba said:
I am open to your suggestions for further corrosion resistance tests of 4V.
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If you wouldn't mind... Cut an onion and then a tomato, make sure their juices are left on the flats and bevel, and then let the blade sit for 20 minutes. If everything is Okay, repeat that process and let it sit for 45 minutes. After that, look at the bevel near the apex with a magnifying glass (or better, a 40x jewelers loupe) and report your findings here. Pictures as well please.

Would you mind dulling the blade, just a bit, and re-sharpening it? Please report how long the re-sharpening took and how keen of an edge the steel took?

All of that would be great. Inquiring minds want to know. I'll gladly PP you $3.00 to cover the cost of the onions and tomatoes.
 
alfred mcdougal said:
If you wouldn't mind... Cut an onion and then a tomato, make sure their juices are left on the flats and bevel, and then let the blade sit for 20 minutes. If everything is Okay, repeat that process and let it sit for 45 minutes. After that, look at the bevel near the apex with a magnifying glass (or better, a 40x jewelers loupe) and report your findings here. Pictures as well please.

Would you mind dulling the blade, just a bit, and re-sharpening it? Please report how long the re-sharpening took and how keen of an edge the steel took?

All of that would be great. Inquiring minds want to know. I'll gladly PP you $3.00 to cover the cost of the onions and tomatoes.
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I think these are all great ideas. I too am curious about the properties of 4V - all we hear discussed is toughness (nearly 3V class) and abrasion resistance (somewhat better than 3V). And the cautions about corrosion / staining. But the latter is also what folks said about 3V before 3V got so popular and real-life experience proved that with a proper HT, 3V was not so bad wrt stain resistance. But only experience with 4V will tell the tale, so I'd love to see these experiments done too. BUT, they will be difficult to interpret without some sort of reference, so should be done alongside at least one other tool steel (3V? M4?), in a new blade (not already patina'd) so we can see if 4V is similar or worse in these tests. Otherwise, what will we learn? That is stained? Patina'd? Rusted?

One other thought - I am sitting this one out, but has the group reached any sort of consensus on an acceptable steel for everyone interested? 3V? Someone want to throw up a poll :) I'll say it again - this will be a great opportunity to get a great knife, so hope it does not get torpedoed by arguments about the "perfect" steel vs one of several good choices. ... OK, back to watching :)
 
dogrunner said:
they will be difficult to interpret without some sort of reference, so should be done alongside at least one other tool steel (3V? M4?), in a new blade (not already patina'd) so we can see if 4V is similar or worse in these tests.
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I did a similar test on one of my 3V blades about 1.5 years ago. Nothing happened. I wouldn't want a kitchen knife made out of 3V, but it works fine in the kitchen, a corrosive environment. One of the reasons 3V is so lustrous is because of all that free chromium. Nice :) One of the nice things about 3V is it's vetted standing. It's easy to find info about it.

To be clear, I'm not biased about 3V. But, I won't vote for 4V until there is more information about it. Information can be disruptive, but it's not evil. It shouldn't be blocked in order to form easy consensus. That consensus wouldn't be based on very solid foundations now would it? Besides, what's wrong with taking our time? What's the hurry?
 
I'm definitely interested in more information, but I think we know enough about 4V to predict with some confidence that it will not be as stain resistant as 3V. That comes from Chris' comments and comments from others who have used 4V (the Bark River Game Keeper II (I think) is one example). But there are probably plenty of folks with Spyderco Mules right now who can add to the anecdotes.
I think the decision would be the known relative benefits of each steel weighed against the known or likely relative demerits (and I emphasize relative because these are all good steels in one way or another).

As far as timing - I think that ball is in Chris' court. My only thought there was that there have been numerous opinions expressed already - so folks already have formed opinions - and it might be worth seeing where the group was or not towards a consensus. Wait or not, you will still see opinions based on individual weighing of pros and cons, different prioritizations. Did not mean to derail the conversation though.
 
If anyone doesn't know, there is a poll thread here in the big Chris forum. Please only vote if you plan to purchase a knife.
 
3/32in is perfect for slicing and some thickness for the occasional light prying in wood and other without worrying about snappage... slicing and some wood prep.. OR NOTHING! :D

I vote for steel please :)
 
Ajack60 said:
I've cleaned one deer with 4V and never worried about having to touch it up.
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It's good to hear that it made it through the deer. Very good news. Blood is very acidic, it's hard on blades.

Would you mind using your 4V knife in the kitchen this week and reporting what you see? Also, would you mind dulling it and re-sharpening it and reporting how long it took to re-sharpen and how keen the edge is? That would be great. Thanks!
 
alfred mcdougal said:
If you wouldn't mind... Cut an onion and then a tomato, make sure their juices are left on the flats and bevel, and then let the blade sit for 20 minutes. If everything is Okay, repeat that process and let it sit for 45 minutes. After that, look at the bevel near the apex with a magnifying glass (or better, a 40x jewelers loupe) and report your findings here. Pictures as well please.

Would you mind dulling the blade, just a bit, and re-sharpening it? Please report how long the re-sharpening took and how keen of an edge the steel took?

All of that would be great. Inquiring minds want to know. I'll gladly PP you $3.00 to cover the cost of the onions and tomatoes.
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Well, I didnt have tomatoes or onions at hand so what I did eventually was this: I stuck the blade half way into an apple and let it stay there for 45 min. I fugured that this would provide a clear boundary so that staining would be more obvious. Then I wiped it clean stuck again quarter deep into the same apple for a moment and then let it stay in the air, for additional 30 minutes, with the juice covering that quarter of the blade. Then I washed the blade very thoroughly with soap and wiped dry.

Here is the photo

4V.jpg

Now, discoloration is obviously there, but in reality is mostly looks better than here. The areas where the juice stayed for additional 30mn seem to look evern darker (those irregular spots along the beverl and the spine and near the tip. So I expect that with use the blade would further discolorate. On the other hand, I looked at the edge through a very good 10x loupe and found no sign of deterioration. I have no idea if that matters or not, though.

I am not good at sharpening at all, so I would trust other people on this matter.
 
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