Warning! Lots of bad words, thoughts and images.

Lifemaking is great fun. Lifesaving is more rewarding than most things. Lifetaking is very hard work and even harder to live with. Keep lifemaking Mick. You know it feels better and the rewards are there to see, everyday. Congrats on the newborn. EC;)

PS The pointy end does go in the other guy right?
 
I also train with "slash first then stab" idea in mind. And I like combining empty hand techniques with blade tactics, although if your up against anyone who has any idea of what he's doing, the outcome will be the flip of a coin.

Wolfman601, I've been trying to get Chuck Remsberg to carry a knife for years, since he can't legally carry a gun. He just doesn't like knives. He says their way too personal for him. He doesn't want to be that close to anyone if he has to kill them.
 
I CANNOT use a knife effectively in a "knife-fight" and I have known this for many years. So when in a situation when I have to "draw" some type of weapon for defense, My ONLY choice is a firearm.

All the available Data and statistics say I am going to get cut seriously, but I cannot hold my own with a knife, therefore my ONLY choice is a gun. I have never carried a knife for the purpose of a front-line offensive or defensive weapon, but as a tool and as a weapon of last resort.

Even though Massad Ayoob "pushes" knife-fighting at LFI, he knows DAMN WELL that it takes about the same time to draw a knife as it does a firearm, and one should NEVER meet equal force with equal force and expect to be victorious. If the BG has a knife, the Good guy MUST have a gun ( or be completely knife-trained) to expect to prevail

While there are some absolute Masters in the art of knife-fighting, they all stand no chance if there is distance and I have them in my sights. They LOOSE. Now, if they are within 21 feet and cacth me asleep at the switch, I am DEAD with my EDC still clipped to my pocket and my USP still in it's holster.

I still subscribe to Remsberg philososphy on knives as front-line OFFENSIVE weapons, and disagree with Ayoob's theory on the "effective" use of a knife. Like I said in my previous post, my remarks at the Street Survival Seminar in Springfield, MA in 1988 still ring true in the hearts of people like me who lack the skills of masterful knife-fighting. "phuck the knife holding scumbag, just double-tap him and the gut him with YOUR knife. I am priviledged that I own "certain tools" that can handily accomplish this task, and hopefully will be well in time for Atlanta to restock my "gutting tools"

Until then, the only way I will currently face a knife-wielding Idiot is to fire to lock-back:eek: :eek: :eek: ..........Ira
 
Amen Wolfman, I am a lot like you when it comes to being a coward! :D

Only one thing, I call it slide lock! Then reload as fast as you can! :D
 
Hey there,
Very good posts.
This is my favorite as of yet; "The lack of respect for the blade is, to me, appalling."

I realize my questioning was a bit vague. Not very detail specific. I have my reasons. And they are this...it doesn't matter.
I'm going to skip over most of the happy horsesht. And move on to the topic at hand.

Killing a human with a knife 101.

Not very PC is it? It is however the real deal. Threat assessment is over, this person can/will harm you if you don't do something about it.
Your life has now become the battle field. Does not matter where you happen to be at the time. You are now facing your enemy. This is your day.

Martial arts are wonderful. They teach balance, speed, power and body mechanics. They teach technique, which gives us confidence. Some go deeper into spiritual issues....

Unfortunately, all of those things go away when you are standing there with a knife in your hand.
All of those techniques, all that breathing, ALL OF IT. Gone.

Instead, your vision becomes tunnel. Reparation, fcked. Fine motor skills (technique), GONE. Your body hunches a bit, shoulders move inward. All of this to protect, instinctively, your important parts.

You are now primal man. Guns are different. Knives are primal. Do you feel it? Good, lets move on.

Now...Here's the bad news...your badguy doesn't really know he is the badguy. See, he thinks HE is the goodguy. I know that sounds crazy. But he in convinced that he is the goodguy, and therefore, HE should win/live. And people are tenacious as sht when life is on the line.

So...here comes the issue at hand. And the flames.

CUTS DON'T WORK!!!!

Okay, I'm not denying that someone will die if you cut off a limb or use your super slasher wacko wobbler. Whatever. Sure they may die.

But what if it is after you do?

A lot of people don't know you killed em and they are supposed to be dead now. You think I'm kidding but I'm not. You have heard stories of it. Forget about knife stories. You have heard about men on the battle field, both legs and an arm blown off, still urging their men on. Can you do that to someone with a knife?

No.

So then what the hell do we do?
You have to unplug the processor. Bio-mechanically shut down their bean.

So then. Stabbing it is.
Yes, you will stab more than once. You want the person dead now. Not on their way. Not gonna die. Stopped.
So then how do we go about it?
Like a FCKING psycho! Pretend your that gangraped inmate.
Neck and facial stabs are best. Because they are closest to the processor.
Abdomen is fine, but often covered in body armor.
Often, you will find that the person will instinctively cover the face and curl into a ball. (Wouldn't you?)
Rectum works well in that instance.
Did I mention Violence of Action? I know someone did.

Think about this sht...



Gotta go for now

More soon


Mick
 
My first and foremost weapon is my brane, failing that!
Ignorance, Surprise and Luck - lots of luck....






"kato, we must increase the severity and intensity of my training..."

:D :D :D
 
Wolf, you might be at a disadvantage barehanded or with the knife now, but what precludes you from learning and practicing more?

In the same respect that it's important to have the capability to protect yourself and loved ones ... it's also important to be versatile and have a backup, right? Besides, training hand-to-hand will most likely improve conditioning, speed and coordination which will help with the firearms stuff ;)

Incidentally, 21' is way over the average distance for a violent encounter. I'd bet that if you're not careful and you reach for a weapon (knife or gun) at medium to close range you will find yourself waking up dead. Even a good boxer could probably knock you out at close range before you draw. Once unconscious ...
 
Mick, I couln't agree with you more (for most of your points). If it comes down to you and your advesary and your only weapon is the knife, it is definatly time to get primal, midevil or just down right nasty. You pointed out an excellent point that the other person is pumped up on adreneline like you are and are going through many of the same physical and psychological reactions. I've seen people get primal before, during and after accidents, during fights that went beyond fights and the person does change.

The point that I would like to disagree with is training whether it be martial arts or not. I have studied a traditional Okinawan Karate (mostly hand techniques, leg kicks, and some grappling thrown in) for about 15 years now. In my experience the fancy sh** that looks good in the movies or in the class goes completely away. BUT a lot of the basics are still there. If training is done correctly, whether it be gun, knife, martial arts, or embroidery the actions eventually become conditioned reflexes. Are you going to perform the techniques 100%? Absolutely not, but if you do it at 50% it is a benefit and when it comes down to my life or someone elses, I'll take anything that I can.
 
My dad's got the best CQC weapon I've seen. He carries an S&W hammerless J-frame with a laser in the grip. If he feels threatened he just puts his hand in his pants pocket and walks around with gun in hand. He can pull and shoot from the hip, hitting you right between the eyes. He and I both say f*** the "legal" carry laws in California. He can carry this gun concealed in any kind of attire, including suit. With loose slacks, he ties the gun to a rubber band, attaches the rubber band to belt loop, and lets the gun dangle in his pocket, so it makes no pattern. He likes a .45 auto the best, but for everyday, constant carry, this system seems to work best.

As far as knives go, I'm a beginner in the knife world. But I read Bill Bagwell's book on Bowies, and he makes a damn good argument. Learn fencing and wield a 9"-12" Bowie.

If you are concerned with concealed carry, well then, the choice is up to you. I like to grapple; thus, I am learning Pentjak Silat Serak, becuase it teaches me one range, which is in tight; sort of like grappling with weapons.
 
This is all great sht.
Great discussion, no flames.
Some points I would like to make clear.
First off, I am a HUGE proponent of martial arts training. You can NEVER train enough. Just remember, the reason you train your body is so that your mind continues to function in the terrible moments.
I never said cutting wouldn’t kill someone. I said it won’t kill them FAST ENOUGH.
It doesn’t matter what you believe about cutting.
Take a trip to the forensics lab. People who are cut live. People who are stabbed die.
I would rather take 20 non-femoral cuts over one pencil-sized puncture wound at a depth of more than three inches. Anyone who claims ‘first hand knowledge’ and speaks of cutting as a method of killing is suspect to me. Even a cut to the neck, (sentry removal type thing) your BG will kick and flounder around. Very difficult to deal with. That is why we stab through the throat and rip out the side.
Range is VERY important.
But with a knife, there are only two that work.
1. Cant touch me (this is a danger zone because of the possibility of a firearm).
2. Inside.
You’re only choice (okay it isn’t your only choice, you could always get lucky) is to explode past their weapon range and kill them.

The reason Im making it so simple is because it has to be. There cant be any “if this, then this, but if this, then that”. It doesn’t work.
I never said it was knife against knife, which almost never happens any longer.
It is simple, you have a knife and you need to kill someone with it.
Doesn’t matter if they have a gun a knife or nothing.
You do it the same way. No fighting. Killing. You’re not here to fight. Fighting gets you hurt. Hurt people get killed easier.
Get inside, shut down the processor. Move to the next target, because no one works alone.
Im going at this from a militant point of view, but you have to. When its knife/life time, there is no other way.

Lets look at it from a historical standpoint. We don’t use edged weapons in war as much as we used to. Back then they really knew their sharp stuff killing. So lets look at the history of killing people.
Name some weapons of war. Going way back. Rock, stick, club. Then we found rocks that we could make sharp. Ahhh…the first ‘knife’. Likely the reason for the advent of language (the knife that is. More on this some other time). But what did we do with the sharp rock (knife)? Did we use it as a weapon? No way, we sharpened the stick. Why is that?

Some one mentioned the Romans as being the greatest (most feared) mankillers in history. That isn’t really true. The Romans were the most powerful to be sure. Their reach the farthest. But the greatest and most feared to my knowledge were the Spartans. The Spartans invented the Phalanx by the way, not the Romans.
What did all these great warriors use to kill? Spear and sword. Were they slashing spears and swords? Of course not.
As we move through history, one thing remains constant. If you want to kill someone on the battlefield you do one of two things. Blunt trauma, or you poke a hole. The larger the hole, the better. Explosives work well, but they are simply blunt trauma mixed with lots of hole pokers. If cutting worked well, wouldn’t we have made weapons that did that? Like the circular saw blade shooter we like to dream about. Great fantasy, bad weapon.

Even small scale. Ever cut yourself? Of course you have. When you were a kid and you cut yourself, what do you do? You go tell mom or hopefully dad because mom will yell at you for it. And they give you a bandage. Ever step on a nail? It is as if the world stops. Oh my God! Rush them to the ER for a shot!
It is encoded into our DNA., puncture wounds kill.

Lets move on.
I really like the “don’t bring a knife to a gunfight” posts.
That kinda goes without saying, but I really like it when people state the obvious. I used to have this friend named John. Every time the sht hit the fan, John would find the time to say, “hey Mick, I hope we win”. Thanks for reminding me of that. Miss ya Brother.

The real reason is that it proves that a lot of people out there have/carry a gun. Be ready for that when you have a knife. That being said:
A knife has HUGE advantages over a gun up close. Im not a big fan of the whole 21 foot rule. That is a bit linear for me. “Okay you stand over there and Ill stand over here. Now go!”
Any one who knows how to use a gun will sidestep and empty the mag into you.
Timing and distance…
Simple points.
A gun in two individuals hands is no longer a gun. It is a hammer being fought over. Remember, fighting is bad. While a knife in two people’s hands, is one person with cut up hands. Who is about to be poked full of holes. A gun only works in two ways. Danger end at bad guy, pull trigger. Danger end at bad guy, hit with hard heavy metal gun.
A knife..well, it’s a knife. It doesn’t really have a safe end. The whole is dangerous.
Oh, don’t think you won’t get cut.
In the whole “apeshitdom” you will cut yourself. Your off hand will be cut. Who knows how. Maybe its Karma. You will magically and mysteriously be cut. “Where the FK did that come from?”
Just trying to step up the realism a bit.

Oh…knife length. It is un-important. You can’t think in terms like that. Your weapon is your weapon. If it is a two inch folder, so be it. Facial and neck stabs. Attacking the face removes the mind from the fight. Attacking the neck removes the processor from the fight.

Sorry, Im long winded.

Great discussion.


Mick

Post Script: Any non believers feel free to stop by and we’ll brake out the training gear for a demo. We will do it at shows or whatever.
Or, try it on your training partner. Square off, they can use what ever techniques he/she chooses. You use the explosive icepick to face and neck attack. You can even tell then exactly what you are gonna do.




RLTW
Edited because my browser thinks the only punctuation available is a question mark.
 
I don't know who actually coined the 21 foot rule, but it has been become popular in the law enforcement community and has been advocated by Calibre Press, who puts on the Street Survival Seminar. The aim of the rule is to give a law enforcement officer an approximate safe minimum distance when he encounters a knife wielding psycho. The rule assumes that the officer remains stationary in one spot and that he has to draw his gun from a holster before putting it into action. Of course as Mick points out, the smart thing to do is a tactical withdrawal to your car or side step as you draw your handgun. Of course these principles also apply to the average Joe, keeping in mind that the average citizen, except in his home, has the duty to withdraw from a confrontation and flee to safety if it is practical and can be done without the chance of harm coming to oneself. This is also the smart thing to do. In other words, run if you can, and if you can't, use the best effective weapon available to you and try to disable your attacker enough that you can retreat.
 
Mick,

This is a great thread - shows a lot about you and the Strider forum visitors that there are no flames or horror at asking the question or thinking about the answer. I have learned a great deal and it has given me some important things to think and reflect about.
 
To emphasize some of the points Mick made, I'll try to remember some Clint Smith wisdom from Thunder Ranch's Urban Rifle class, and interpret it from a knife fighter's perspective - ie. "That pistol you carry is to get you back to that rifle you shouldn't have left behind. That's 'cause every fight is a rifle fight". (I guess you can add your knife to the front end of that quote.) Of course, except on the battlefield, you're not hauling around your trusty M-4 everyday. You can, however, have your trusty GB or AR on you at all times.

"The Fight" is the fight you find yourself in. If you have an choice, use the most destructive thing you have available. Most of the time it'll be a folder.

The other Clint quote is "Get out of The Hole". The Hole is that evil space between you and your contact-weapon armed opponent where he can close & engage quickly. A well placed SS109 will resolve matters very fast, but if you have the knife only, get in that Hole, do as Mick says and get busy.
 
Mick, you are right on the money. I am a FireFighter/Paramedic. I've seen LOTS of knife wounds. (knives are very popular with the local indigenous population here) The people with slashes do not die. The most memerable dead guys were two seperate calls, but each body had one hole, in the armpit. (The sub-clavian artery is about as big as your thumb and leaks out fast when cut)They were both dead when we got on scene.
Cheap steak knives are the shank of choice around here.
 
I tend to agree with Mick but for the sake of informed debate, it would be interesting to see if Bram from the Spyderco Forum would enter the discussion and explain the differences in his "biomechanical cutting" approach to edged weapons.
 
Hey Mick,

I have had the good fortune to train with many FMA masters. One in particular stands out. He has been involved in many knife fights(well over 20) in the Philippines. His footwork is flawless and prefers to stab at his opponent's kidneys. He's very friendly and treats his students like his family. But when he's teaching or telling us about his "exploits".....it's then that you notice the darkness in his eyes. By the way, good call on the "stab to the neck then cut to the side". Most finishing moves in FMA are either stabs to the neck or slashes to the carotid arteries.

Adrian
 
Awesome thread!

I have 2 things to add, and a question.

Thing to add 1) Knife fighting is good even if you are super traiend with a firearm. If you travel, you may not be in a firearm friendly area. In Canada, you can't carry a firearm around. You can carry knives.

Thing to add 2) I forget, sorry!

Question to ask: given the realism then Mick, wouldn't it be kinda best to carry a tanto liek your WB model? I hear that daggers penetrate more easily, but I assume that with animal violence used while defending yourself with a knife, I bet even a blunk screwdriver would poke someone well. Given that a tanto has a relatively tougher tip than a dagger, wouldn't this be a verry good choice for carry?

Editied to add question 2) What about slashes and such to set up stabs? Is defanging the snake something you practice? Slash to create the stabbing openings?
 
Great thread! This is the first thread I've actually printed out.

Mick - what about the dangers of cutting yourself when fighting? I recall hearing that people fighting with knives often cut themselvs (OJ's cut finger made him an even greater suspect - he said he did it while shaving...right).

Can the risk of cutting yourself be avoided? Is it something simple like getting a decent knife with a pommel so your hand doesn't slip off the handle and on to the blade? Or is cutting yourself just a risk you need to live with and if it happens you keep attacking until the threat is neutralized?

Just wondering...
 
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