Warning! Lots of bad words, thoughts and images.

I carry knives because they are great tools in general and a good weapon to reach for in the event I've let an adversary move in too close. A superior of mine once said if I can touch you I can kill you - he would walk up unnoticed at various times and poke you with a finger. He was right the unobserved shot/strike is what I fear - not the 21 foot charge and panic drill that test reaction times.

I'm always happy to learn new forms of defense in case I've F'd up and let someone get too close but I still consider a knife fight a bad idea. For the people who can invest the time it takes to be real good at knife fighting - I think its a great skill but to me it is a real inefficient way to take somebody out. Why?

1. No standoff.
2. Dash two, three, or more may be lurking nearby and now my hands are real full.
3. I've got to get close and the vulnerability of the stalking and attack phase is undesirable.
4. I've got one good chance if I have surprise but if I miss I'm vulnerable and in close where bad things can happen.
5. Probability of immediate incapacitation given a hit - If I hit but the guy has time to hit back before blood pressure drops from the blood loss and causes him to physically go down then I'm again vulnerable.

Mick and Duane will arm me with several of the many tools that I will use to deal with problems.
Thanks Striderguys!
 
Just to clear up a few things. At the battle of Thermopylae there were 300 Spartans and a couple of thousand allies. I believe the Immortals were Xerxes (king of Persia) bodyguards. The Macedonians modified the Phalanx by using very long spears to increase the depth of the phalanx, but the Spartans and their discipline were the real founders of its use.

As far as guns go-in CQB engagements with a knife armed assailant, your technique had better be perfect and well grounded. Most people who talk a big game are totally lacking the speed and skill to truely deal with a knife armed attacker. Keep in mind that in knife vs. gun encounters the knife armed person is going to do anything to get as close as possible with his weapon, before the attack ever begins. How good is your draw when you have an animal on top of you trying to insert a piece of steel into as many places as possible?

On this subject Mick is nuts on-listen.

In regards to people cutting themselves during knife attacks. This is very common during criminal street attacks. We see it very regularly, and have solved many stabbing cases through the "cut crook". Most bad guys aren't using quality fighting knives that have guards or indentations to protect the hands from slipping down the blade, and most victims of knife attacks will usually put up a very intense defense when they realize they are being stabbed or cut.
 
Thanks again everyone for keeping this thing flame free.
Just to quantify a few things before we move on:

This is a discussion on killing humans with a knife. Hopefully, you will never be in the position to do so. Hopefully when YOUR time comes, you will have an option. Cut and run, or whatever.
That isn’t what we are talking about. Not that those comments are not welcome here. Just letting you know why I’m not talking about them.
I don’t generally kill every one I come into contact with.

With regard to “situation”. Questions have been asked as to “details” of the encounter. I covered that earlier. Just real quickly again:

Threat assessment is over, you now have to kill this person with a knife.

Okay then…
Slashing in order to set up a stab. Sure I guess. But why?

There is a word that best describes the way to win a battle. I use the word battle because that is usually a fight (with knife , gun or whatever) to the death.
Can any one tell me that word?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Beuler?
Anyone?

Juggernaut.
The short definition of Juggernaut is; An irresistible overwhelming power or force.
There is no escape; there is no defense. I am killing you now.

That is how it has to be.
Initiative is everything.

Jerry you stated “what if the person doesn’t want to give you their face”?
Well no sht… No one wants to die. That is what makes it so difficult.
No one wants to give you ANYTHING.

This is a no shitter you guys. Im not making this stuff up. This is human physiology.
Here’s how it goes. You seize the initiative, move in and attack. Your blade is ice-pick style, you are stabbing the face/neck area.
Your BG will usually have a startle response. If you’re lucky, it will move them back on their heels, their hands will come up in the ‘startle guard’ which is fine because it is completely ineffective. It will often form a small ‘funnel’ type channel for you use as a here’s the throat marker.
The reason for attacking the face is that if effectively removes their mind from the fight until you unplug the CPU. It is also in the same striking zone as your primary target. The neck. You’re not gonna have the best aim, and there will be some freaking out on the other end.
It is REEEEEEAAAAALY hard to fight effectively when your face is being attacked.
Human instinct tells you to cover your face and turn your head and body away. Again, to protect your vital organs.
This is the part where you tell me that a well trained individual will not respond to instinct. Wrong. DNA encoding is DNA encoding. Human physiology.
Now again, Im not saying that training is bad. Just the opposite. Im not saying that ANYTHING is absolute. That is my point.
What if they retain the ability to fight back?
What if they run? Because they will. Remember, they want to live. Just like you.
That is WHY we do it like this. It is THE MOST sure-fire way to win/live.

If they run, you run them down and kill them.
If they fight back, you will cut yourself. Not to mention what ever they are able to do to you.

Remember, you are killing another human. This is nothing like anything else. You’re not shooting them, your not hitting them with your car. You are smelling and tasting them. You are covered in both of your blood and sweat. Death is on the line. It is VERY easy to see yourself in a higher light than you truly exist. To tell yourself that you are ‘trained up’.
Take my word for it. You WILL be scared shitless. You WILL lose fine motor skill (technique). You WILL have tunnel vision. There usually will be some sort of fked up time sequencing (speeded up or slowing down). Here’s another one, if your BG has a knife, you WILL weapons fix. I don’t care how many hours of mat time you have. You WILL weapons fix.
Lastly, you will never sleep well again.

Practice turning into the BADMAN.
Do some drills with this stuff on your pals.
Use a RUBBER knife and goggles. A metal trainer is too painful for this.


Thanks again

More soon

Mick



RLTW
 
For me, personally, how hard or intense I fight depends bigtime on what I am fighting for. If I have to protect my wife or kids I am going to go ape$hit and totally lose my concern about myself long before I would if I am just fighting for myself. I think the mindset is everything. There are a lot of times you should just eat crow and move on, if you want to enjoy your life and not serve the next 20 years in prison. I have a good life, good career, a wife and two kids. It's pretty stupid for me to play the bravado role on the street and go for broke in every single encounter. Most of the time it's better just to move on, even if it means eating a little crow. Other guys have the mindst like Tank Abbot; they just don't give a $hit and will take you on to the fullest measure no matter what. The mindset is far more important than anything else.
 
I understand it to mean focusing the majority of your attention on the BG's actual weapon, rather than on his whole body, actions, demeanor, etc.
 
Is "weapon fixating" such a bad thing, assuming it doesn't prevent you from attacking? After all, it's the weapon in his hand that's going to hurt you, not the snarl on his face.
 
Mick is correct on all points. Especially when it comes to not sleeping well again, no matter the outcome provided you survive. He also said that for the sake of this discussion you have to know that he's armed and that you have to take him out. But I haven't seen anyone say anything about getting stabbed from the back first then making that asessment from there. Say for example, you walk away from someone getting in your face. That sh!tstain is going to interpret that as disrespect and comes up and stabs you. Now what do you do when you're bleeding from the back and not really thinking about your knife but instead trying to get away some how? I sure as he1l won't think about proper stance, breathing technique or form, all i'd be wondering is how do I get away or how do I destroy this guy with what I have around me. I may or may not be able to get my knife out. But in all honesty, if I were stabbed in the back and he got me good, then i'd have zero chance of fighting back cause i'd be dying.
 
Hey there Mr. Steve,
Of course not.
And this is a good time to move in that direction.
What if it doesn't work? What if you slip, trip, fall.
How many times have you heard it? "I can't believe it. Nothing worked".
THAT is where your training comes in. THAT is why you learn body mechanics. THAT is why you spend those hours. Those fkd up pains. Stick bashed knuckles...
THAT is why we run all those drills. But those things must be your plan B.
Plan A. is "I'm gonna fkin kill you!"

Oh wait, I wanted to talk about something else first. Really they are related, so I guess Ill run them together.

Lets say your BG has a knife.
Multiple posts already on the fact that you can't underestimate your opponent. Very good.
Since we have already talked him up one side and down the other, lets keep it up and use CJ as our bad guy. CJ is a very proficient individual. To say the least.
How you gonna fight him?
Well...your gonna be curled up in a ball covering your vital parts, thats for sure. Your elbows will be in to protect your parts as well. Your only gonna have only one chance. Time is short, what are you going to do?
If you had a gun, what would you do?
Would you shoot the knife from his hand, put one in his femoral and then finish with a shot to the head?
No way, you would shoot him in the head.
Knife is the same. Only you have to carry the bullet home.
Keep your body tight. It is safe that way. Consider your body the sabot and your knife the tungsten. Penetrate baby!
This is centuries old stuff.
Win the battle with fire superiority. In this case, your knife is your ‘fire'.
The only true method of taking someone out of the fight is to keep them on the defensive.

You know we are all saying the same thing.
All I'm doing is narrowing your target. Moving all strikes into the X ring.

Also, keep in mind, your BG has a friend or three. While your dodging around trying to find an opening, someone is making one in the back of your head.
You must create an opening with your hatred.

Death is always more linear than fluid. Move through your BG to the next.


You guys rock

Mick
RLTW
 
Regarding grip - what type of grip do you guys use for stabbing attacks - reverse or saber, and why?
 
..I've drawn blood with a fixed blade twice...

Case #1, John Biddleman, now known as 'leftie', a proven assh*le (from my earliest posts), who decided that after ripping my phone out of the wall, he was going to 'put my eyes out' with a Buck 110...I had a meat cleaver, ergo, John now writes with his left hand...

Case #2, over a buncha BS, out in the desert, two friends of a guy that I had 'wronged' wanted to teach me a lesson...that lesson quickly became a lesson in 'Survival'

These things really happened to me, and it all happened very fast.

I was scared like I'd never been. I cried, I pissed myself, and I puked all over the place while I hyperventilated. But, I was lucky, I was young, fit, and pretty much drunk in both instances.

So, I've carried knives for over 20 years now, but doubt that I could 'use' them if I had to...I've carried a concealed handgun at times for 15, albeit illegally, and the same applies...I really doubt I could get them into play if attacked suddenly.

Sure, if you want to 'kill' someone with a knife, a plunge into a major artery should do the trick, (Remember, the intent is to disrupt laminar blood flow)...

That being said, I firmly believe that most, if not all knife fights will be finished if/when the attacker gets slashed to the face/hands, and starts to 'leak' profusely. (Sorry to disagree with ya Mick, but I don't think that many KF's are a 'duel to the death'...)

Anyhoo, that was long ago, and I'm much older and slower now...

I've just got to ask, "Mick, have you trained or talked with Kevin McClung, aka 'Maddog', or Greg Walker, aka sierra912...?"

I don't ask that to flame, honest to god I don't; I just think they have a little experience that you could build on...and I've heard Kevin teaches a pretty good course.

Just some thoughts from an 'armchair warrior', the short dumpy guy with the crooked smile....lol

Sheldon, AKA 'Melvin Purvis'

p.s. It was nice meeting you at the 'Knife Expo 2002' show. My pleasure. Nice knives, even nicer guy!
 
Excellent no BS thread, Mick. Alot of guys preach not to let fear and anger take over claiming you can't think on your feet if you do. Maybe I never meditated enough but in my few violent encounters all I can remember is fear and anger. Better to go ahead and use these powerful forces to your advantage and lay waste to anything in your path. "Juggernaut" is a great way to describe it.

MO
 
Lots of good stuff going on around here, I like what I'm reading.
I've only drawn a blade in anger once and came very close a 2nd time on the same deployment, I've trained a bit and I must agree with Mick, straight fowrard attack,attack,attack. Dance around and try fancy stuff you saw in the latest action movie and all your doing is buying the other guy time, time for his buds to come up from behind or time for him to get you in a position of disadvantage, time, enough of it goes by and your bound to make a mistake.
Lots of guys training in the Brazilian Gracie stuff on Bragg, OK if you want to fight in a cage with tap outs allowed but, trying to do this stuff with full kit and wrestling around trying to dislocate the other guys arm takes way to much time. I belive in staying on my feet. Once you loose your mobility your done, I wouldn't even do that in a bar fight non the less combat, yes you may end up there and I've been told the statistics by the guys that belive this stuff is the heat X number of fights end up on the ground. I've been on the ground during a few fights but i've gotten my ass up as soon as I could becouse I don't want to be pulled into a wrestling match, I want to fight you and beat the crap out of you, not pin you.
After the first 15 seconds if your not done and looking for your next target, your loosing.
Even more so with fighting with knives, the faster the better.
I hope this thread doesn't fade lots of good stuff here.
 
"Remember, you are killing another human. This is nothing like anything else. You’re not shooting them, your not hitting them with your car. You are smelling and tasting them. You are covered in both of your blood and sweat. Death is on the line. It is VERY easy to see yourself in a higher light than you truly exist. To tell yourself that you are ‘trained up’.
Take my word for it. You WILL be scared shitless. You WILL lose fine motor skill (technique). You WILL have tunnel vision. There usually will be some sort of fked up time sequencing (speeded up or slowing down). "

Dead in "A" ring there Sir..

I havent read the whole thread so forgive if this has been said ..

DO NOT EXPECT THE ATTACKER TO RETREAT OR EVEN STOP AFTER YOU HAVE CUT HIM/HER.

Several years back I had a incident in which I had to defend my life with a knife,at the time I had about one years training in Ryukyu Kempo with a lil knife defense .My teacher had told us that when cut a attacker would stop and try to retreat from the shock and pain..Big Big lie..In my case I had cut the attacker 3 times over what seemed like minutes(really seconds)before he finally broke off and released me...
 
I jus' finished Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab not to long ago. In it there's a situation where he's getting ready to commence with a sentry removal. Me being the by-product of the Nintendo generation that I am, begin to foresee a slashed throat in the jundie in question's foreseeable future.

Then McNab explained out the stabbing principle exactly as Mick did earlier and then went on to explain "the T". Simply put, the T is a line that runs across the eyebrows and down the center of the face following the nose. His only intention was to ram his knife as far as he could into one of those lines and hope the target didn't fire off a warning burst. Nothing about covering the mouth, or tilting back the head and slotting him Rambo style, he explained that the only thing that's been proven to work effectively, (Read as quickly.)is to stop the processor from functioning. (Luckily for the intended victim, he left the AO without noticing the SAS team waiting to do him in.)

Rick
 
Your buds are right Fallschrimjager, 80% of fights will end up on the ground, but 100% begin standing up. It's the 20% of the people who know how to fight that realise the value of footwork and keeping mobile.

Keeping small and crouching is also something I like to do, and as Mick said keep the elbows in to protect the vitals. I also protect my center line with my free hand. If someone is going to thrust a knife at me, I'd rather have it go between my ulna and radius than my gut,neck, or face.

As far as grips go, unless it's a surprise attack, I go with saber. Why? because it gives me optimal striking radius by using the fullest extension of the arm and blade. My goal is to get my knife in him while keeping my body away from his knife.

I've never been in a knife fight, maybe the ice pick attack would work?
 
Mick's advice works for "knifeless" self-defense as well as a knife attack in terms of tactics. I've been studying martial arts and combatives for years now, and all the guys I respect have the same advice. Keep the badguy moving backwards and on his heels. Always move forward, never move backwards (there are exceptions to every rule, but that's what your goal is). When you attack, you are controlling the action. When you are defending, the badguy is controlling the action. Action is faster than reaction, that's why it's to your advantage to be the one attacking rather than trying to figure out what the other guy is going to throw and defend against it.

You take the same tactics, put a knife in your hand, and it works just the same.
 
Cooper, yea, thats about the number they give me. I'm not bad mouthing the system, just saying it's got some weaknesses. If combined with a kicking and striking system it would be better.
I like some of the moves, but mostly the arm bars and breaks that keep you on your feet.
 
I've never been in a knife fight, so you can skip this post if you want. But I've been in a few fights, both sporting and otherwise, and my version of Mick's Juggernaut is Berserker (some Norman-Viking blood in the family).

When I boxed (no ritzy martial arts training- why is it whenever I see those boxer vs. kickboxer specials on TV, the boxer always seems to win? This will undoubtedly piss somebody off!) my sole tactic was to attack. I was lucky in that frenzy and fighting spirit more often than not won for me. But remember that as you charge your BG to summarily sever his CPU from his body, you may be impaling yourself on his 11.5" long Strider knife. I "walked" into a couple of punches with my attack philosophy that flat layed me out.

I know this is not a gun against knife thread, but I've only carried a tactical knife for a few years, and I've carried a gun for 26 years, legally or illegally as the case may be (a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do...). I've never been in a gunfight, either, but I've saved my life on a least 3 occasions by displaying my weapon and an eagerness to use it.

Whether it's guns or knives, to me the most important issue in a fight is situation awareness. Yeah, once the fight is on, mindset is the most important factor, but why have a fight you can avoid? If you have situation awareness, your hand is already on the grip of your Kimber CDP .45 or your Strider BG. In either case, the 21' issue (which I think was popularized by Massaad Ayoob in "In Gravest Extreme." At least that's where I first saw it in 1982.) becomes moot, because you're already tracking, in condition black or red or whatever your fighting style calls it, and geared up to immediately kill the MF if necessary. And in my case, if there's any question, the weapon is out and pointing directly at the threat; so far in my life that has been enough of a deterrent to end the fight before the fight began.

Having rambled on over-much, Mick is right on... Juggernaut to the max, once the threat assessment indicates you are in a life or death situation. :mad:

Watch your six.

John Richmond
 
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