Who will dethrone Ronda Rousey???

[Zero_Time]

Rousey saying she would crawl and get ahold of Mayweather, to defeat him, shows how big her ego had become. She couldn't ever do that in anything goes style fighting. Why? Because she'd obviously get kicked to death. The fact that she didn't even try to do that against Holm shows how much crap she talked.

Jill, why do you have such animus against Rousey? It seems that you dislike her for more than lack of conditioning or lack of fighting skill. Personally, I'm not a huge Mayweather fan because he thinks hitting women outside of necessary situations is cool. Also he dodged Pacquiao until Pac's decline was evident. Why do you like Mayweather? He talked plenty of trash, and actually hurt people outside the ring.

I'll admit I haven't followed Rousey beyond being a casual watcher, exactly what an earlier link said was the problem for casual people trying to understand. But how many fighters act ridiculous, or prima donnaish outside the ring? How many don't? I mean, Muhammad Ali talked trash and he was hilarious. Mike Tyson was brutal and amazing, but raping people is just not cool, and he lost respect after that. I could go on and on with Boxing champs who were mean. I guess Sugar Ray, Pacquiao, and De La Hoya are the easiest *stars* (not just champions, but STARS) to name with decent personalities? I guess I wonder why you seem to respect Mayweather who talked plenty of trash and actually HURT people, whereas Rousey seemed like a Chihuahua- funny and entertaining in her trash talk without actually hurting anyone. I always found her ENTERTAINING for her antics.

Beyond that, I think the trash talk while still looking pretty good was exactly what Women's MMA needed at the time to raise the profile. I think a more soft-spoken athlete wouldn't have gone as viral and created opportunities as someone like Rousey.

Thoughts?

Zero

 

[jill jackson]

You funny, I didn't really care until Holly came along and beat her. It's nothing to do with Ronda and everything to do with Holly. In fact I wasn't even following either fighter, beyond watching Ronda in after fight vids winning sometimes. Never even heard of Holly before, I just love the way she fights now. She's got the footwork, the punch and the kick. She's a cool woman! :thumbup:

 

[Zero_Time]

You funny, I didn't really care until Holly came along and beat her. It's nothing to do with Ronda and everything to do with Holly.

That's totally understandable. Holly is amazing. From some of your posts I thought you had it out for Ronda which I wanted to understand, but no need to explain liking Holly. I'm in the same boat as you: not really following except highlights, and did catch the Rousey/Holly fight, and wow was Holly impressive.

Zero

 

[jill jackson]

No Ronda was doing her thing all along. She backed it up, I figured she might get beat someday by a boxer/kicker wasn't too worried about it. If she'd been able to retire undefeated, wouldn't have mattered to me at all.

 

[ursamajor]

Rousey is still young enough to learn some serious movement. She fought like an idiot, chasing instead of cutting off, getting on the inside of Holm's leading foot, there was zero head movement making her face a bullseye every time she closed. Holm was really chambering the left cross and Rousey walked straight into it every time, didn't even seem to recognize it. It would take 6 months to a year for a dedicated and talented martial artist like Rousey to get to a point where she could negate most of the danger from Holm. Her defeat by Holm has made the gaping holes in her striking game clear for all to see.
At the same time, she'd need to practice different takedowns, single- and double legs, instead of the almost mandatory ogoshi. Holm has clearly become adept at defending against judo throws, but is probably more vulnerable to proper feints and shoots. Kata guruma instead of hip throws.

What remains to be seen is if Rousey is up for the challenge. As it stands, she does not have the tools to beat Holm, unless she gets lucky which is something no one wants to rely on.

I disagree. The canyon between Holm's striking, and ring generalship, and Rousey's is vast. Holm is one of the best female boxers of all time-Definitely top 5. You do not get equal footing with that in 6 months.

Holm reminds me of Liddell. She has that same great sprawl and takedown defense. It is going to take a talented striker to beat her.

 

[ursamajor]

If Holm can put together a decent ground game, paired with a strong takedown defense, throw in some knees/elbows for fun, she could hold onto that title for a pretty long time.

Picking up ground game is easier than being a world class striker. Holly can become a top grappler faster than Ronda can become a competent striker.

 

[Moonw]

Ronda was maybe the most overrated athlete of all times. Glad to see the unwarranted hype died at last...the first time she faced a competent striker.

 

[ursamajor]

It's not going to happen. Word is so far that, after she takes some time off, Rouseys first fight back will likely be a rematch with Holm. It likely isn't going to be a boxing match this go 'round and holm will then have to prove that shes as good on the mat as she is standing.

Personally, I hope Rowdy mops the floor with her.

Without the Gi, all Ronda can do to take Holly down is harai goshi and uchi mata. Or shoot for a single leg or double leg takedown (which is unnatural for her). And Ronda tried she really did. Problem is, Winkeljohn trained Holm how to defend it. Holm is to fast and too strong. Ronda can't beat her if kicking and punching is allowed, and if Holm is not wearing a Gi.

 

[ursamajor]

Rousey had never been hit hard before, she can't handle it. That was proven beyond a doubt. Many good fighters are great until that happens. Rousey had the ground skills but not the true heart of a champion.

http://www.foxsports.com/ufc/story/...iar-territory-when-she-finally-got-hit-112015

Yeah. It was a 100% lopsided fight. There was not even a nanosecond of the fight where Ronda won and Holm lost. People who compare it to Douglas Tyson are way off. Tyson was much more competitive in that fight than Rousey was. Tyson even knocked Douglas down and nearly out. Ronda never even threatened to be more than a punching bag in that fight.

 

[philwar]

Picking up ground game is easier than being a world class striker. Holly can become a top grappler faster than Ronda can become a competent striker.

Nonsense. A talented martial artist like Rousey can raise her defensive striking skills to the required level within a year of dedicated training. She'll need different takedown skills as well though. Holm has already acquired the takedown defense needed to ward off Rousey's most used attacks, especially considering she has trouble closing with Holm. When Rousey's footwork and head movement improve to the point where Holm has to focus more on striking, the fight will be more even. Rousey doesn't need to become a champion level striker, just as Holm didn't need to become a champion level grappler to be able to defend against Rousey. As it is, Rousey was a sitting duck, she has zero defensive striking skills. For someone of her level, that can be remedied within a year. She'll never be as good as Holm but she doesn't need to be, just as Holm doesn't need to be as good a grappler as Rousey... and never will.

 

[philwar]

Without the Gi, all Ronda can do to take Holly down is harai goshi and uchi mata. Or shoot for a single leg or double leg takedown (which is unnatural for her). And Ronda tried she really did. Problem is, Winkeljohn trained Holm how to defend it. Holm is to fast and too strong. Ronda can't beat her if kicking and punching is allowed, and if Holm is not wearing a Gi.

Actually, Rousey's most used attack is ogoshi, and yes, Holm was well prepared for (apparently) any judo throw Rousey might use. Holm's speed and strength certainly help, but if Rousey learns to close more effectively - which currently she can't because she has to eat too many strikes - they may be largely negated.
Holm knows a rematch is coming though, and she has some excellent strategists. So her preparation will consider whatever Rousey's team will try to think of. Which reminds me: has she made any changes to her team?

 

[Moonw]

For someone of her level, that can be remedied within a year. She'll never be as good as Holm but she doesn't need to be, just as Holm doesn't need to be as good a grappler as Rousey... and never will.

Not necessarily.

Condit is at least 10x the MMA fighter Rousey would ever dream of being, yet his wrestling is, let me put it this way, severily lacking. It is not, and will never be, his "strong" point, despite his efforts. Heck, all he'd need would be a good takedown defense, a la old time Cro Cop, and he'd shine even more.

Askren, Shields, Maia...their striking will always lack. I won't even start anything about Brock who simply didn't like being hit.

It is time we accept that people might simply suck at certain disciplines, despite their high level in others, inspite of their efforts. I have a long list of things I suck at.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing that would justify one to make any projections or predictions. She may, or may not, ever reach a level of serviceable striking against stiffer competition than glorified soccer moms that took up MMA classes to keep in shape (hyperbolizing, but not much).

We still don't even know how broken mentally she is. I won't take Dana's word about her coming back, and we don't know whether she won't act like Barao in his 2nd confrontation with TJ. Too many variables involved.

The simple fact that her striking coach was nothing but a yes man that made her think she could cross over to boxing successfully one day (oh boy), this being inspired by a guy having a mural painting of himself in the gym, side-by-side with Ali should tell a lot about her delusions. I fully expect to hear in the not so distant future that she just was "caught", from mr. Edmond.

 

[ursamajor]

Nonsense. A talented martial artist like Rousey can raise her defensive striking skills to the required level within a year of dedicated training. She'll need different takedown skills as well though. Holm has already acquired the takedown defense needed to ward off Rousey's most used attacks, especially considering she has trouble closing with Holm. When Rousey's footwork and head movement improve to the point where Holm has to focus more on striking, the fight will be more even. Rousey doesn't need to become a champion level striker, just as Holm didn't need to become a champion level grappler to be able to defend against Rousey. As it is, Rousey was a sitting duck, she has zero defensive striking skills. For someone of her level, that can be remedied within a year. She'll never be as good as Holm but she doesn't need to be, just as Holm doesn't need to be as good a grappler as Rousey... and never will.

False. Holm was a far better boxer than Ronda was a Judoka. So you are saying while Ronda could not become as good at Judo as Holm was at boxing, she will become as good a boxer as Holm, without having to put in the years, and fights that Holly did. Nope. Holm is an all time p4p boxer, Ronda never won gold as an adult, in either the Olympics, or World Championships.

We heard all this nonsense about how great Ronda's striking had gotten. She looked like she did not even have the right to be in the ring with Holm during their fight. This is coming from someone who both boxed as an amatuer and did Judo throughout Jr High and HS. I went to school and was in the same Dojo for all those years with Nate Loughran. I love watching great Judo. With that, having had also boxed I can tell you that no amount of mit work, sparing, running, training, etc can replace actual fights. Unless Ronda is going to leave MMA, go become a professional boxer for a few years, and come back to MMA, she will not become good enough a striker to keep up with Holly. It's not only that Holly can strike, but it is the fact that she can counter punch VERY well, and knows how to walk her opponent into strikes, while working angles. Those skills take YEARS to develop-years and fights-fights that are striking only.

Now grappling, you can think more, plan etc. Reflexes don't play as much a part of it as much boxing or kick boxing.

 

[philwar]

Not necessarily.

Condit is at least 10x the MMA fighter Rousey would ever dream of being, yet his wrestling is, let me put it this way, severily lacking. It is not, and will never be, his "strong" point, despite his efforts. Heck, all he'd need would be a good takedown defense, a la old time Cro Cop, and he'd shine even more.

Askren, Shields, Maia...their striking will always lack. I won't even start anything about Brock who simply didn't like being hit.

It is time we accept that people might simply suck at certain disciplines, despite their high level in others, inspite of their efforts. I have a long list of things I suck at.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing that would justify one to make any projections or predictions. She may, or may not, ever reach a level of serviceable striking against stiffer competition than glorified soccer moms that took up MMA classes to keep in shape (hyperbolizing, but not much).

We still don't even know how broken mentally she is. I won't take Dana's word about her coming back, and we don't know whether she won't act like Barao in his 2nd confrontation with TJ. Too many variables involved.

The simple fact that her striking coach was nothing but a yes man that made her think she could cross over to boxing successfully one day (oh boy), this being inspired by a guy having a mural painting of himself in the gym, side-by-side with Ali should tell a lot about her delusions. I fully expect to hear in the not so distant future that she just was "caught", from mr. Edmond.

I don't disagree with the gist of your point, but you don't seem to counter mine much. I think you're spot on about her striking coach (using the term loosely).
Quite apart from my own extensive experience, the history of the UFC is rife with examples of fighters who learned enough of one aspect of the art to complement their game to the point of becoming champions. The dominance of Royce Gracie is quite comparable to Rousey's, and I guess women's MMA is roughly where the men's was in Gracie's day. They'll learn quicker this time though, exactly because it's happened before.

Damian Maia is a very good example. He's good enough that he might be champion one day, and is certainly a top contender. In fact his grappling is so good it causes him not to put more effort into striking, which I've seen happen a lot. They get by - or so they think - and only the true champs want to be as good as humanly possible in all fields.

Mentally, Rousey's resilience is anyone's guess. She always seemed fragile to me, her anger and animosity covering up something else, and it was plain to see on her face once she was stood up again and faced Holm. She was shattered, and who knows if she'll ever come up to scratch again.

As for learning to strike: I've personally helped grapplers (judokas and BJJ'ers) learned to strike to the point where they could effectively compete in MMA. I come from the other end, I have 35 years of Muay Thai, and only 5 years in Judo/BJJ, and it gives me good insight into the strengths and weaknesses of grapplers learning to strike. If I couldn't do it myself, I know people who could raise Rousey's game sufficiently so she wouldn't be a punching bag next time around... if there is one.

 

[ursamajor]

Actually, Rousey's most used attack is ogoshi

No, its Harai Goshi. Unless you have done Judo for years, it is easy to confuse the 2, as they are both hip throws (hence the "goshi"). There are 2 differences to the throws.

Harai Goshi is done with your lapel hand coming over your opponent's shoulder, reaching to their spine as you put you hip centerline with your opponent, and beneath their groin, and finishing with a sweep of their outside leg.

O Goshi would come from an underhook with your lapel hand, coming around their waist (you can even grab their obi if you want, but it is unecisary) as you set your hips the same way as described above, but THERE IS NO SWEEP.

 

[Moonw]

I don't disagree with the gist of your point, but you don't seem to counter mine much. I think you're spot on about her striking coach (using the term loosely).
Quite apart from my own extensive experience, the history of the UFC is rife with examples of fighters who learned enough of one aspect of the art to complement their game to the point of becoming champions. The dominance of Royce Gracie is quite comparable to Rousey's, and I guess women's MMA is roughly where the men's was in Gracie's day. They'll learn quicker this time though, exactly because it's happened before.

Damian Maia is a very good example. He's good enough that he might be champion one day, and is certainly a top contender. In fact his grappling is so good it causes him not to put more effort into striking, which I've seen happen a lot. They get by - or so they think - and only the true champs want to be as good as humanly possible in all fields.

Mentally, Rousey's resilience is anyone's guess. She always seemed fragile to me, her anger and animosity covering up something else, and it was plain to see on her face once she was stood up again and faced Holm. She was shattered, and who knows if she'll ever come up to scratch again.

As for learning to strike: I've personally helped grapplers (judokas and BJJ'ers) learned to strike to the point where they could effectively compete in MMA. I come from the other end, I have 35 years of Muay Thai, and only 5 years in Judo/BJJ, and it gives me good insight into the strengths and weaknesses of grapplers learning to strike. If I couldn't do it myself, I know people who could raise Rousey's game sufficiently so she wouldn't be a punching bag next time around... if there is one.

Well, my point was that I don't think that Rousey having high-level judo necessarily means she would pick up striking on a serviceable level against someone like Holly. Heck, hers was serviceable against other foes in the past already . But now...it's an entirely different ballgame. She did get by with her judo skills, but she now needs to move further as those days are far behind...you equating her with the early days of BJJ in the octagon is spot-on.

Now that she ate more than enough humble pie, I'd actually be interested to see her come back but I am skeptical she could reach that "barely enough" level of striking against someone like Holly. I may be proven wrong, though.

Holly learned just enough defense on the ground against her because Ronda always did the same, bullrushed her opoments, eating weak and panicked punches, and Jackson is a genius strategist. However, she would need to learn more against someone that has a lot of striking versatility, just to drag her down...to put it better, the MMA fighter Rousey I think needs more to progress than the MMA fighter Holms...as Holms has more tools in her bag and will not defend the same each time. And then, Ronda may surprise her with some very exotic submission...

Hope what I'm saying makes some sense. I have too little boxing experience compared to some others in the discussion.

 

[jill jackson]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/holly-...hanging-ronda-rousey-fight-004533799-mma.html

 

[philwar]

No, its Harai Goshi. Unless you have done Judo for years, it is easy to confuse the 2, as they are both hip throws (hence the "goshi"). There are 2 differences to the throws.

I'm a brown belt. I know the difference. Rousey throws mostly without the leg sweep.

 

[philwar]

Well, my point was that I don't think that Rousey having high-level judo necessarily means she would pick up striking on a serviceable level against someone like Holly. Heck, hers was serviceable against other foes in the past already . But now...it's an entirely different ballgame. She did get by with her judo skills, but she now needs to move further as those days are far behind...you equating her with the early days of BJJ in the octagon is spot-on.

Now that she ate more than enough humble pie, I'd actually be interested to see her come back but I am skeptical she could reach that "barely enough" level of striking against someone like Holly. I may be proven wrong, though.

Holly learned just enough defense on the ground against her because Ronda always did the same, bullrushed her opoments, eating weak and panicked punches, and Jackson is a genius strategist. However, she would need to learn more against someone that has a lot of striking versatility, just to drag her down...to put it better, the MMA fighter Rousey I think needs more to progress than the MMA fighter Holms...as Holms has more tools in her bag and will not defend the same each time. And then, Ronda may surprise her with some very exotic submission...

Hope what I'm saying makes some sense. I have too little boxing experience compared to some others in the discussion.

I agree, again. The only real question is, is Rousey able to become proficient enough at striking to defend against Holm, and to close with her? Who can tell, but in my experience it is quite doable. Whether it will in fact be done is a different matter.

 

[James Y]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I will add that if Ronda wants to be a movie star, she needs to decide which is more important to her: acting in movies, or MMA fighting. Because it's extremely difficult to straddle that line, having one foot in each pursuit, and be top-notch in either of them. I'm not saying that Ronda lost to Holly because she was distracted; not at all. IMO, Ronda met her Kryptonite in Holly Holm. Styles (and individual fighters) make fights. Whether Ronda can improve enough to narrow the gap in her striking game to be competitive with Holly in that regard is the question, and as was already mentioned above, Ronda is very unlikely to achieve that. She certainly will never be able to outstrike or outsmart Holly in the stand-up game. It's not just that Holly has great punches and kicks. She is the entire package, and puts all of her skills together exceedingly well.

Prior to the fight, Ronda had said that if she ever lost it would completely devastate her. The fact is, you never really know an undefeated fighter until they've lost. Anybody can be a tough winner; it's only after a loss that we find out how mentally tough or fragile they actually are. I've seen fighters go undefeated for years in boxing and MMA, and once they suffer a loss (usually a devastating one), they tend to become beatable. It shatters their sense of invulnerability, and they're no longer a guaranteed winner.

I remember a while ago when Ronda claimed that she could beat Georges St. Pierre if they ever fought. I don't think she was kidding. I wonder if she's rethinking her position now. While Ronda is still an outstanding fighter, EVERY person on the planet has their limitations, and anyone can lose on a given day. Also, for every "unbeatable" fighter, there is someone out there who is capable of beating them, whether they ever meet or not. Every 'Superman/Superwoman' has his/her Kryptonite.

Jim