Why D2

the OP is definitely conflating 2 different sources which can both result in worse knifes: HT/quality vs actual steel used

Both of these reasons can significantly impact performance

Part of the problem, is as the OP says, 'Chinese d2'. Interestingly it has about 5 times less vanadium than it should (only about 0.2% instead of 1% which is in Germany/USA/Japan d2)
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/GB/cr12mo1v.shtml

^ see? the steel is sub-par when compared to other d2, but still a big step above the worst steels
 
[citation needed]
Many times when I am a subject I will do google search. In this case, searching for the subject steel of this thread, I found many examples. Just search "cost of chinese D2" or "chinese D2 steel" or similar searches. You will find all you need. Plenty of examples, but here is one if you can't get your searches organized for Chinese D2, the subject of the thread:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...2700.7724857.normalList.10.5246c2132277ZK&s=p

If you are really interested, you can search further and find that there is a lot of Indian made D2, and even D2 from other countries. Costs vary widely, but you can find all mixes and amounts you need.

It's cheap, but not that cheap. AKS sells it starting at about $3 for the amount you'd need for a medium-sized folder (https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/shop/d2-carbon-steel).

Seriously??? You have to know that none of the international bulk knife makers buy from alphaknifesupply a blank at a time... they buy in sheet goods to maximize their cnc costs, speed and economy. The huge, bulk manufacturers don't buy by the inch, piece, but by the ton in the thickness and recipe that fit their requirements. Note too, that (with further reading) your link to alphasupply did no include any reference to Chinese D2.

Regardless, the cost of the raw material is only part of the input. A harder steel will require longer to grind (labor cost), go through more grinding belts (tool cost), and will likely require better equipment to heat treat correctly (equipment cost). Even if they're saving a buck or two per knife by using "fake" D2, that still adds up quickly.

Sorry, was trying to keep on topic. The topic at hand was questioning the authenticity and integrity of Chinese D2 steel, not manufacturing techniques, protocols, labor, cost of consumable goods, etc., used when manufacturing knives in the huge numbers that count the cents per unit. It isn't/wasn't about the cost of knives.

Robert
 
Sorry, was trying to keep on topic. The topic at hand was questioning the authenticity and integrity of Chinese D2 steel, not manufacturing techniques, protocols, labor, cost of consumable goods, etc., used when manufacturing knives in the huge numbers that count the cents per unit. It isn't/wasn't about the cost of knives.

Missing the point there, aren't you? If your argument is that the budget Chinese knife brands are not substituting cheaper steels because bulk steel labeled as D2 is already cheap in China, then the other costs of working with different steels are definitely on topic. If they can use 8Cr or similar and save money on labor and equipment costs, then there is absolutely a benefit to them in mislabeling their steel, regardless of how cheap D2 may be.

Many times when I am a subject I will do google search. In this case, searching for the subject steel of this thread, I found many examples. Just search "cost of chinese D2" or "chinese D2 steel" or similar searches. You will find all you need. Plenty of examples, but here is one if you can't get your searches organized for Chinese D2, the subject of the thread:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...2700.7724857.normalList.10.5246c2132277ZK&s=p

K, that link is for 20CrNiMoH, despite what the title says. That's 0.2% carbon - low carbon steel, which is dirt cheap.
 
Because it allows them to charge a higher price for "D2"! In theory it has better edge retention than the other mystery steels from china however it itself might not actually be real D2. Alternatively it could be heat treated poorly and have just as junky edge retention as the other mystery steels. ;) I don't buy em.

From what I see the blades are good :) very good, I would say +++ like the Pakistan ones ARE as GOOD, TESTED... But these handles with printed Imitations of carbon fibers on them :D:D:D , that G10... Joerg does not speak about them too much.... I can see some locks are looking like they are breaking or at least "Giving-up" during his tests.... :poop:....

But the F******* blades are handling it :).... and these blades are on F******* clones. That is what bothers me....

Because if you take this as a whole.... WE PAY Premium Prices for a better handle ? YEssssss. but IS IT not as important as the blade..... YESSSSSSSSS it is.

So what makes a cheap clone clunky ? The handle. A good handle (one that wont leave the job) cost much more (material and time) than the blade. or it`s not "Worth it, to install it".
 
Missing the point there, aren't you? If your argument is that the budget Chinese knife brands are not substituting cheaper steels because bulk steel labeled as D2 is already cheap in China, then the other costs of working with different steels are definitely on topic. If they can use 8Cr or similar and save money on labor and equipment costs, then there is absolutely a benefit to them in mislabeling their steel, regardless of how cheap D2 may be.



K, that link is for 20CrNiMoH, despite what the title says. That's 0.2% carbon - low carbon steel, which is dirt cheap.

But isn't there laws that prohibit false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices in China ?
 
I don't trust Chinese D2 as it isn't what I consider D2 and the links provided previously show what you can hope your getting and even then can you trust it? For the matter of clones yes I will, and do, pay more for improved handle ergos, construction, and overall quality than I pay for the blade I think makers on here will tell you the blade and steel are not that significant of a piece of the price. The cost in in the time working the materials which some steels need more work and similarly with handle but you ensure solid reliable construction requires a large amount of time and the quality control to check that it was made to par.
 
Why are the knife companies from China all using D2 steel?
I’m to the point I will not buy a knife if it has D2 steel. I don’t trust the chinesiam steel from that country.

Plenty of non Chinese companies use D2 also. If priced right and intended use, what's wrong with that?
 
I once watched a episode of how stuff is made where they took you around the Buck factory. The entire process was so automated that I don't think the quality would change no matter where you set up the factory. I don't see it being any different in china. If they have the machines and tooling they are going to produce a good product.
 
At my China Factory is cheapest 420 then cost ever more, here a Pricelist cheapest and more Expensive.

420 very Cheap
440 Very Cheap
D2 Very Cheap
14c28n Cheap
Vg10 Cheap
S30V Medium
N690 More Expensiv
S35VN More Expensiv
M390 Expensiv
Vanadis 10 Expensiv
CTS XHP Very Expensiv

In USA is D2 Extremly Expensiv look Medford :D
 
I would be really happy if all companies would use d2 instead of 1XCrX shit.

I mean I never heard about someone that didn't like this steel for the price it sells.
 
cbrstar cbrstar The issue is the quality of the equipment, how well maintained, how much of the product off the line is allowed to pass QC those are things you won't easily easy or see from a glancing overview of production process.

Pmp_knives Pmp_knives Is the D2 the Chinese shop is using Chinese D2 or D2 from outside of China as I currently understand it the D2 produced in China is not the same of particular note is the difference in Vanadium content while they may somehow get away with calling this D2 I will not consider it such.

I personally love D2 that I have from a USA made Queen and Italian made Maserin which I suspect neither is importing their D2 from China.
 
@number9 Yes D2 is a standard however the standard being used everywhere but China includes more Vanadium I suspect the speced standard has a wide range for Vanadium content allowing the Chinese D2 to be considered D2 while not being the same as the rest.
 
cbrstar cbrstar The issue is the quality of the equipment, how well maintained, how much of the product off the line is allowed to pass QC those are things you won't easily easy or see from a glancing overview of production process.

Pmp_knives Pmp_knives Is the D2 the Chinese shop is using Chinese D2 or D2 from outside of China as I currently understand it the D2 produced in China is not the same of particular note is the difference in Vanadium content while they may somehow get away with calling this D2 I will not consider it such.

I personally love D2 that I have from a USA made Queen and Italian made Maserin which I suspect neither is importing their D2 from China.

I Think is China D2 but a Dealer from Germany have this testet in a Germany laboratory was 99% Same as normaly D2

M390 is 100% from Böhler the Chinese have me Show the Zertificat but im not Sure is S30V and S35VN really from USA. My Manufacturer say he Buy all From USA but all US Factories write CPM S30V or CPM S35VN and all Chinese Factories only S30V and S35VN witout CPM but They Say is from USA.
 
I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong. Isn't D2 a generic recipe made by multiple suppliers, whereas S30v, M390, etc are proprietary steels available from only one source (Crucible, Carpenter, Sandvik, etc?)

More or less, yes. S30V is trademarked steel from Crucible. The generic name would be PM14-2-4CrMoV (per zknives), while Carpenter has a steel called BD30P, which is their trademarked version of the same alloy.

D2 is a old alloy, so no one owns a trademark on it. It has generic names under different classification systems (e.g., 1.2379), and trademarked versions (Bohler's K110), but anyone can make a steel, stamp D2 on it, and sell it. At worst, they'd risk being sued for false advertising if their steel doesn't conform to the AISI D2 specification. If you take a well-known US-based company like Crucible, their D2-labeled steel likely conforms to the spec, both because of the risk of false advertising lawsuits, and moreover the risk of damage to their brand reputation if it didn't conform to the spec.

Take a random foundry in China, however, where the risk of lawsuits or brand reputation damage are much lower, and I would have to assume the risk of steel labeled as D2 not conforming to the spec is much higher. In particular, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't have the right levels of expensive alloying elements, like vanadium.

I'm sure they can make steel to spec, and likely do for industrial buyers who will run metallurgical analysis on samples prior to paying for it. For smaller knife brands, however, I doubt they're doing such analysis. My assumption would be that they're buying cheap "D2" knowing it's likely to be off-spec, but not testing it so that they can have plausible deniability if called on it.
 
I'd add this: I'm not an expert on knife steal, but I work in the nutritional supplement industry, and most of the raws come from China these days. Whether quality raws get used or not, is totally up to the company using them. The Chinese can make what ever people want and pretty much what ever quality they want, but it's 100% up that company to test every batch, and have good QC through the process. That being said, no doubt it's no different with a steal being made in China: it's on the company selling it to care what quality (in this case D2) steel they're getting and using. One thing you don't do is assume you're getting what you paid for raw materials wise no matter who is supplying it.
 
I'm cool with D2 in inexpensive knives, but I would not pay Medford or Brous prices for it. I know some really like D2, but I do not. In my experience it has been chipper and a pain to sharpen. I know the argument is usually that it is a good all-around steel, but there are much better all-around steels that are completely stainless.
 
I'm cool with D2 in inexpensive knives, but I would not pay Medford or Brous prices for it. I know some really like D2, but I do not. In my experience it has been chipper and a pain to sharpen. I know the argument is usually that it is a good all-around steel, but there are much better all-around steels that are completely stainless.
This is due to poor heat treatment imho. It takes time to do it right. I'll post some quotes from carothers later on the topic of ht.

Edit:
Rather than quote a whole lot, just check out the threads from @Nathan the Machinist on d2
https://www.bladeforums.com/search/21194123/?q=D2&o=date&c[user][0]=193594

Though here's one from the archive
http://xf.bladeforums.com/threads/any-experience-with-nathans-d2.1470902/#post-16929136
I probably have more experience with my D2 than anybody, I have them around the shop, my own skinning knife, and my steak knife. I use it all the time, it's probably my favorite steel and it has been running circles around and handing out spankings to the stainless super steels for years.

D2 is probably my favorite steel and I do a very good job with it. My heat treat for it has developed over the years and I feel it represents the best in the industry. I've been very open with other makers about what I'm doing with it and my techniques for it are now widely adopted to the point I see new makers talking about the process and unaware where it came from.

Complex steels like D2 usually have a basic "built in" grain size that results from their alloy and its reaction to an anneal. By default D2 is usually around 12-13 intercept grain size which is relatively fine grain.

Pre-quenching in D2, M2 and other complex steels is a grain refinement step that violates the "only one austenitizing per anneal" rule for these steels meant to avoid the extreme grain growth they're prone to on a second heat which creates a large fish scale style fracture. When done improperly it can have no effect or can lead to intercept grain size as low as 1 (extremely coarse).

Prequenching, when done properly, can refine the grain upwards of 17 or more, which is a very fine grain condition. This is based on research by Teledyne VASCO.

Before going further, let me state that grain refinement to this level serves no purpose in-of-itself and very fine grain, beyond a certain point, doesn't make a better knife. This is a widely misunderstood concept among makers and knife nuts. That's not what this is about.

There are a couple steps about pre-quenching I don't recommend to other makers because they have to be adjusted for each heat batch because the variations in alloy content and material condition effect the heat treat response and can lead to problems if done improperly. This is one reason I don't use D2 much any more, because every single batch needs special attention to be fully optimized. This is particularly true going from one manufacturer to another, because D2 is like hotdogs, they can all put different ingredients into it, and a .8 vanadium will react differently than a 1.2. But, when the time and temp is dialed in it refines the grain (which is not a bad thing) and puts carbon into solution, reducing the soak time and temp for the second heat which I believe may be very significant in minimizing naturally occurring structures that play hell with edge stability such as RA that converts in temper rather than during the quench.

The end result of a fully optimized D2 is a durable knife with outstanding edge retention, good corrosion resistance, and that toothy D2 edge that just keeps cutting. While not as durable as 3V, it's more durable than most, and it just keeps cutting and cutting.

Sometimes D2 can be somewhat brittle, but our final cut testing yesterday of a knife from this batch had a thin D2 knife at 18 DPS at HRC 63 cutting some 4D nails without chipping.

We're using Crucible D2 for this batch, but not their CPM version. This was not to save cost (less than $2 difference per blade) but to avoid the small rounded carbides that fall free from the edge. It's a good process to promote toughness, but it spoils one of the best properties of D2 in a knife, so we use a conventional melt.

If you'll try it, I promise you'll like it.
 
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