Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

Mr.K.666, I'm so sorry I disappointed you... :D

At least I never claimed to be keeping my yap shut!

When Halloween rolls around, I'll let you know.
 
O.K. Darby.

I apologize to Steven. My remarks were out of line and uncalled for...

I don’t really know him, and was over reacting…

Please excuse me.
 
Well, that was weird.
 
And ironical, because Tai was behaving like pre-sabbatical STeven, and STeven was measuring his words and displaying as much self-control as Keith (Montgomery) or Coop.

ken
 
I think STeven's art is affecting his writing- very impressive- I like it!
 
Tai Goo said:
O.K. Darby.

I apologize to Steven. My remarks were out of line and uncalled for...

I don’t really know him, and was over reacting…

Please excuse me.
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Apology accepted, Tai...we all have grumpy days.:D

The point that I was trying to make, if it was not clear, was NOT to refute your feelings, observations and opinions concerning the ART of knifemaking.

The point is that there IS both art and science in making...in your case, the scales may be weighted heavily to the art side, and this is good...in the case of DiamondBlade, the scales are CLEARLY heavily weighted to the science side, and this is also good. The issue of art/craft/science/chicken entrails by the light of the moon will not be settled anytime soon, but it is the discussion that is valuable.

The question that has not seemed to be asked yet, that is most important(in my mind) concerning forged-carbon steel/stock removal-stainless steel....is "what do you want to do with it?" It always seems like a flow chart would be necessary to obtain the best results to this question....variables like edge thickness, hardness, and grain structure reveal strengths and weaknesses when observing it like that.

As an example....I have yet to see a stainless steel katana-like object that I would feel comfortable doing heavy cutting with...more to do with my lack of ability than the ability of the maker.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Lorien said:
Well, that was weird.
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Yup.

insignificance_2.jpg


Scott.
 
I have a great deal of respect for both Kevin Cashen and Tai and feel that there is plenty of room for both of their approaches to knifemaking.
 
Tai Goo said:
I'm not against metallurgy, "if" it's properly interpreted, applied and kept in perspective. I'm all for that! I've said that many times... Evidently many people consider me a metallurgist and a scientist,... although I don't see it that way.

Any “formal training” that I know of in metalsmithing, or knifemaking/bladesmithing is handled through the art department in the colleges and universities, and through private schools. I actually taught these things at a university and a college, including heat treating, totaling about 8 years and have taught privately for over 20 years. Try going to any science department at any university or college and ask them why they don’t offer courses in knifemaking/bladesmithing and try to convince them that they are sciences. If nothing else,… it should be good for a laugh. :)

I bet they'll tell you the same thing I'm telling you.
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Yeah, I don't know of any universities that offer a degree in knifeology either.

That said, there are companies that make knives. There are steel companies that have produced steels that were designed for knives. (Sandvik comes to mind.) There are steels designed for hot cut machining, paper cutting, bandsaws, etc. These came about through R&D. Metallurgy is driven by these industry requirements. It seems silly as a poor lonely bladesmith to turn your back on more than a century of work in figuring out what happens when you heat treat steel.

This issue is at a right angle to issues of art and design. Separate. I fail to see how your freedom of design is being impinged on by others discussing the science behind heat treating.
 
stephanfowler said:
UMMMMM, the FAA and the Military have the wherewithal to order 1000 TONS of a certain steel chemistry and require EXTREME tolerances in terms of alloying elements.
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Not really, most companies try to hold as little inventory as possible. I work for a company that makes an FAA certified product. We rely on a defined inspection/treatment/test process, with periodic assays of the incoming material. We have to design using the same incoming stock as anyone else.

Which leads to your next points:
stephanfowler said:
Us poor bladesmiths are sorta stuck using whichever batch of steel happens to be around.
Ever heard of "Black Diamond W1" - Its a trade name for a PARTICULAR batch of W1 that was frickin awesome to HT. I can buy W1 all over the place. But unless by some freak accident they ACCIDENTLY hit the EXACT alloying of the black diamond batch, W1 will never HT exactly the same.
Each batch is different. When you start to work beyond "good enough" HT your process MUST take into account the minute alloying variances allowable.
...
That's a .8% SPREAD of carbon, a .3% SPREAD of Manganese, and .3% SPREAD of silicon

If you've ever studied HT to any depth you realize that can make a HUGE difference.
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This is the reality for just about everyone (not factories) making blades. How do you deal with it? Do you close your eyes and "go with the flow" and hope things work out? I looked at your website and saw you have a whole page on testing! You deal with this by testing each blade with a defined test procedure. I'm sure you adjust your heat treating on the front end based on this testing and other destructive tests you talk about. This is not "instinct" ... this is trial and error and working to improve based on your past results.
 
Gator68, You keep trying to put words in my mouth and making false assumptions about my methods. I never said my freedom of design is being impinged on by others discussing the science behind heat treating. I never said I was sooo against metallurgy. I never said that you didn’t have to experiment and test, etc… Artists as well as scientists experiment and test. I don’t see any difference there. However, since the goal is to make a knife, not strictly just to study metal,… I see it more as an art.

Depending on how you go about heat treating, you may be able to more or less eliminate the skill/talent and experience factors. If you use controlled heat treating equipment and “air hardening” steels, it’s fairly cut and dried. Otherwise, there are quite a few variables to consider that I don’t think you can completely get from a book, but not to say that some book learning won‘t help.

It seems silly to me to turn your back on a tradition of quench hardening steels that goes back to before the industrial revolution or invention of the microscope, etc…

There is method to the madness. :)
 
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Quoted from RMLamey...

"Heat treat is a funny thing, I can give another maker the exact way ive treated a blade, both using steel from the same batch etc... and we will come out with different results. IF it were as simple as whats written in a book then there would be little to no trouble out there with heat treating, and it wouldnt really even be a topic."

Two of the most seemingly trivial, but actually very difficult, tasks to get a person to perform are: writing an SOP that someone else can follow, getting someone to follow an SOP. If two people are doing the "same thing" and getting different results, then they are NOT DOING THE SAME THING.

I'm not sure if he actually said it, but it has been atributed to Einstein... "Insanity is diong the SAME THING over and over again and expecting a DIFFERENT result."

At its core, knife making is defined by science. Ther is a reason that blades are heat treated, and it is not to make them pleasing to the eye (not the primary reason anyway). There is a reason that edges are ground at acute angles, and it is not because that is what speaks to the soul (again not primarily anyway). The elements that make a piece of steel a knife- and that make one knife a better knife than another- are born of science. "Form follows function." Handles, guards, blades, all have shapes defined by their functions, and whether they are derived from empirical observations or theoretical calculations, all are- in their essence- expressions of scientific principles. What a knife maker does with this knife to make collectors lust for his work is art.

You can deny that knife making involves science. You can deny that the world is round. You can stick your head in the sand and deny whatever you want.
 
Look guys, I'm sorry I used the word "instinct". I guess it was a poor choice of words. I tried to clarify what I meant, but I guess it didn't take. Let’s just forget the word instinct. I should have said talent, aptitude, knack, or gift. It may be hard for some people to understand, but it really depends on how you want to go about things...

I am most interested in developing my own human abilities and capabilities,... what I can do with my hands and eyes,... my "gift". I'm not going to forfeit that, my own human potential. I owe it to myself. To me it is more fun, interesting and rewarding that way, which results in more enthusiasm and closer attention to the work,... which in turn helps "me" perform better. I like the traditions of the craft. I'm not saying it is superior in terms of performance to others, or right for everyone, but that with practice and experience you can get very good at it.

Once again, I have never made any unreasonable claims about the long term performance of my knives,... and never felt that I needed to. The body of work speaks for itself.

Performance is subjective.

It just depends what you like.
 
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WARNING!

ANALOGY AHEAD!

You've been warned.

Universities also do not offer degrees in enzymology, however, I am an enzymologist. My biochemistry degree (PhD) covered areas of molecular biology, organic chemistry, analytical chemsitry, physical chemistry, molecular biology, biochemstry, and chemistry of enzymes, among others.

While a university may not offer a knifeology degree, many offer degrees in metallurgy, mechanical engineering, structural engineering, materials science, among others. You can also get a bachealor's of science degree in ART.

While universities don't offer a knifeology (or enzymology) degree, it does not make either any less of a science.

For the record, enzymology is the study of enzymes.
 
Tai Goo said:
Gator68, You keep trying to put words in my mouth and making false assumptions about my methods. I never said my freedom of design is being impinged on by others discussing the science behind heat treating. I never said I was sooo against metallurgy. I never said that you didn’t have to experiment and test, etc… Artists as well as scientists experiment and test. I don’t see any difference there. However, since the goal is to make a knife, not strictly just to study metal,… I see it more as an art.
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Fair enough. Sorry to misinterpret you. Keep on forgin'. ;)
 
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