Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

hlee said:
WARNING!

ANALOGY AHEAD!

You've been warned.

Universities also do not offer degrees in enzymology, however, I am an enzymologist. My biochemistry degree (PhD) covered areas of molecular biology, organic chemistry, analytical chemsitry, physical chemistry, molecular biology, biochemstry, and chemistry of enzymes, among others.

While a university may not offer a knifeology degree, many offer degrees in metallurgy, mechanical engineering, structural engineering, materials science, among others. You can also get a bachealor's of science degree in ART.

While universities don't offer a knifeology (or enzymology) degree, it does not make either any less of a science.

For the record, enzymology is the study of enzymes.
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I guess that makes knifelogical sense... :D
 
Japan does indeed offer Knife making courses. All the way to master.

I'm not talking about apprentice ships in the ancient arts, but real degrees in Knife making. One of the Grads. is one of the Featured Artist at Knife Legends . com

We're so behind in a lot of things here in America. We use to be the leaders. Now, sadly, we don't lead, or even follow. We just don't do! I miss the old days! We're Americans. We make the best (What ever it is), you can get. We had pride in American products.

Now we are turning into one giant third world importing company.:(
 
Tai Goo said:
Look guys, I'm sorry I used the word "instinct". I guess it was a poor choice of words. I tried to clarify what I meant, but I guess it didn't take. Let’s just forget the word instinct. I should have said talent, aptitude, knack, or gift. It may be hard for some people to understand, but it really depends on how you want to go about things...
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I completely understand. I think instinct is a great term. Something we are discouraged from using from day one.

The science part of the art and crafting I partake in is a really a great "tool".
Granted an important tool but it's a tool. It's but one of the tools I make tools with.
Some people just surround themselves with the things, tools that is. That is their choice.
Personally I use a few favorites I consider good tools. More than that and my mind gets cloudy and weak... Hard to distingish the trees from the forest.

Forging is part of the art. I always have that tool science lying around keeping me in line and putting things into perspective.

Art is a state of being.

Scott.

http://www.caribooblades.com
 
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hey Michael- I was trying to be funny! The Friction Forging thing isn't really forging and isn't really stock removal- it's both! And therefore it must be superior;)
 
Lorien said:
hey Michael- I was trying to be funny! The Friction Forging thing isn't really forging and isn't really stock removal- it's both! And therefore it must be superior;)
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Haa! and its neither! Friction forging has nothing do with forging! But the catch name with forging in it will once again draw in the masses!

More smoke and mirrors! Sure it works, but does it need to be called forging to sell? They are making our point once again!:cool:

Mike
 
indeed!
 
I don't think there is a better term to use than forging to describe friction forging. Though I still think of it as FSW (Friction Stir Welding), they are not welding anything. The process has all the characteristics of forging, including going to transition temp, and a quench. It's just done in a new way.

see "forging a knife blade" & "forging"
http://www.diamondbladeknives.com/frictionForging.aspx
 
We all go to transition temp and quench. this isn't the definition of forging. The steel isn't being drawn out. Shaped, or reshaped in any way. This isn't forging. It is simply friction heating. At a very high level. It is simply a method of super heating thru high friction caused from a combination of high RPM and Pressure. Unless of course, when Drag Racing, I am forging my tires ( and Breaks)at the end of each pass! Lol!!!It is a way to market a technique that is unique to the buyers. Using the term forging will help the readers say Oh, OK! When other wise, most would have no idea what is being done. Much less have anything to compare it to. Sure the article helps, but advertising in the Mag's.,won't have a tutorial with each add. It will help
sales quite a bit I'm sure. After all. every one knows what forging is, and that it is unquestionably superior to anything that became before, or after. A winner!

Why do you think Lockheed, Boeing, NASA all have hundreds of Black Smiths, with forges ablaze, hammering out all the high tech. High precision landing gear for our modern aviation industry! No telling how many leather aprons they go through a month making the landing gear for those aircraft that must land on carriers. But man this stuff can pass a grueling torture test!!! :thumbup:

I got'ta invest in some cows and charcoal!:D
 
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The steel gets moved around completely during the process - it just ends up in the same place. What other term would you use to describe steel that has been put under tremendous pressure and force, high temps, an rapid cooling?
 
Broos said:
The steel gets moved around completely during the process - it just ends up in the same place. What other term would you use to describe steel that has been put under tremendous pressure and force, high temps, an rapid cooling?
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Uh, Friction Heating?;)

So every time I apply the breaks at high speed, I really am forging the breaks. Wow!

I'm forging!!! I'll be darned. What will they think of next!!! For what its worth, even though the application is new to cutlery, it has been in use in the making of certain types of armor plate for a while now. Just no one ever thought to call it forging.

I would thing that most people here are familiar with a process called friction welding. Now if we apply this to some part of a knife, can we now call it Forge Welded? You bet we can. Is it? Of course not. But were having fun!:p

This thread is more fun than a barrel full of Spunky Monkey's
 
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Isn't forging the hot working of steel? Unless it's cold forged, I guess.:cool:
I would think that the face of a hammer, hit in such a way as to 'draw' hot steel into a shape, would be creating a lot of friction.

In my mind, this mechanical process is simply emulating the standard old forging process, utilizing sophisticated machinery, which can control tolerances beyond 'instinctive' human capability. Whether or not it produces a superior knife, I suppose is in the eye and hand of the beholder/handler.

I prefer the old kind of forging, where the tolerances are controlled by eye, experience and instinct, but that's just me:)
 
Forging means you are deforming the steel. Examples could be hitting it with a hammer, pressing it, etc. The steel shape has to change.

It doesn't sound to me that this is what the FSW process does. The Diamond Blades link says though that the pressure tool "penetrates the blade" -- I suppose if that is true, they are melting the edge? Maybe this is a casting process rather than a forging process. :)

They repeat the old nonsense about a through hardened blade being easy to break but an unhardened blade won't. Too bad the unhardened blade will be bent into a pretzel before the hardened blade breaks. They admitted in their introduction thread here that the blade was differentially hardened simply because that is the only thing their technology allows. Way to put some spin on it!
 
I'm curious about this. Master Swordsman, Toshishiro Obata, has used some of the finest forged blades ever made. He states that his Hartsfield Katana, is the sharpest, strongest sword he ever used. That Hartsfield Katana is a ground, stock removal, blade??
 
Michael Lovett said:
After all. every one knows what forging is, and that it is unquestionably superior to anything that became before, or after. A winner!

Why do you think Lockheed, Boeing, NASA all have hundreds of Black Smiths, with forges ablaze, hammering out all the high tech. High precision landing gear for our modern aviation industry! No telling how many leather aprons they go through a month making the landing gear for those aircraft that must land on carriers. But man this stuff can pass a grueling torture test!!! :thumbup:

I got'ta invest in some cows and charcoal!:D
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One sarcastic dig after another at forging. As predictable as a sunrise, but not nearly as pretty.

Roger
 
To each their own.:)
 
I use sarcasm frequently myself, but at least do me the service of reading about this process before using it to excess.:) Do you understand that the toolhead actually stirs the steel using friction and pressure input during this process? No heat input and it is a solid state process (no melting). The toolhead penetrates the HRc 40 something steel like a router bit, and spins it around the toolhead, leaving it in the same shape afterwards. Heat and deformation is the result of the energy input, radically changing the microstructure of the steel. It is rapid, complete, and utter deformation by any definition. The radical nature of the deformation and rapid quenching is why it does what it does to the steel. No traditional process known will result in an equivalent microstructure observed in the steel (though I'm sure there are folks looking into other methods to do the same process).

It can be used to take a piece of armor plate and bend it to produce a one piece turret whereas previously plates had to be welded together. And the protruding angle of armor on the FSW'd turret is a lot stronger than a fusion welded turret. And this is pretty important if you are in a Bradley and someone shoots an RPG at you and cracks the weld seam of your armor. Knives were a coincidental by-product of this process.

If your definition of forging is limited to the traditional forms of it, then no, you may not want to call it forging, but technically it is forging. Braking ain't even close to the same thing. Not at all.


The professors use the technically accepted definitions of terms that either have more narrow definitions, or less defined definitions when used in the knife world. To me it can be frustrating to discuss the performance parameters of knives because members here do not even agree on definitions frequently (definition of "sharp" is a good example). I've seen many disagreements here where folks are arguing over performance or testing, and it is obvious to me they are not even agreeing about the definition of what they arguing about.
 
Broos, I was buying and selling industrial machine tools in and around NASA contracted companies for years. I am very familiar with the process. I'm just saying that until being used in the wording to relate to knife people, it was never called forging. Sure we can broaden the terms to include it. Why not. OK, It's now forging. Or since it stirs the metal, may be stock removal, and re application. How about friction re-arrangement?

Follow your own advice. Study forging a little. We don't forge and quench. Not in high carbon steels.( This would course crack, and stress). This is done on TV and in the movies when you see a blade being forged. Not in the real world. Looks cool though. You forge and reheat. either to forge more, or to normalize the steel to relieve stress before final heat treating. Quenching is a process of the heat treat. Not the forging.
People make a big deal about new technologies. As they should. not a month goes by that a maker doesn't call me and tell me all about the water jet cutting, or edm machining so and so has. Man! You ought to see it done. It's the greatest thing ever! Well, I was seeing it done, and playing around with them at least 35 years ago. Friction welding, and friction heating is nothing new either. Only calling it Forging is. ;)

Roger, I love messing with you! Your so easy. Every time you open your mouth to put me down, I can go back and find where you said exactly the same type of things only in the other camp. Fair is fair Sir! Let the Games begin! Or not! Either way I'm having a great time!:D

Mike
 
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