Antigravity puzzle solved 50 years ago

massive weight?

I think you must have the balsa wood and aluminum foil "lifters" confused with something else....

They appear to simply be a somewhat arresting demonstration of the movement of ionized air across a high electric potential. Some of those who play with the things say that the downward rush of air is quite perceptable.
 
Believe it when I see it.....in person. ;)
 
The ARV uses the same principle, but employs a massive "pie" of stacked copper plates, negative- positive, negative, positive, etc..

It is very heavy. Many times UFOs have landed on wood and their actual weight was calculated. (the area and depth of their gear depressions)
On average, a 20 to 30 foor diameter vehicle was said to weigh about 30 tons.


I have to wonder how many Presidents, Astronauts, Nobel Prize winners, congressmen, NASA administrators, Prime Ministers and other people who have received such high honors from society have to report the fact of UFOs before the average man will understand.
 
Then let's see a hovering, heavy stack of plates instead of these gossamer fabracations that, BTW, don't seem to work in a vacuum. You can even use an external power supply.

If UFOs or ARVs exist, it sure doesn't look like the they are running on the the effect the link illustrates.

Please don't tell me that element 115 is required...
 
Josh, do a search for "ARV and Bob Lazar".

Perhaps Danny has something a bit more "serious", though.
 
I'll remain agnostic on the UFOs and ARVs. I accept that there are things in the Universe not understood by humans. Gravity, and it's relation to the other forces is one of them I don't doubt the capacity of various governments to rationalize the classification of anything as secret. I recall reading that at one site in Britain the meal menus are top secret. So I don't doubt that if something fundamentally new (or mindlessly derivative for that matter) was found (by whatever means), the immediate reaction would be to classify it. It has also been amply demonstrated that those who are employed in any branch of government can be as gullible, ignorant, ruthless, selfish, and in general able to display the worst traits of humanity as anyone else.

That is quite a different issue than whether the particular capacitor devices in your first link actually exhibit "anti-gravity". The fact that they don't work except in the particular configuration best suited to exploit an atmospheric ion current effect from the corona wire is damning.

Show me one made from plates. Show me one that operates in a vacuum. Show me one where the dielectric is not air capable of being displaced below the device as the lifting force.
 
I suppose that is a reasonable request.
May suggest that you change your request slightly to a "lets try to find a..." instead of a "show me..."
People will think you are from missouri.

Here is a pic of TT Brown and one of his 3 foot steel disks that flew using his "electrogravitic " system.
bahnson6.jpg

I know thats not quite what you asked for, but I am working on it.
 
Hey, it's authorative enough for me. If you can't believe "Mr. G" or "E", who can you?
 
Thanks, Firkin. I'm familiar with Lazar, just not the ARV acronym. I've heard interviews with him before, and while he's entertaining, I wouldn't say he's particularly convincing.

--Josh
 
Danny, I suggest that you read up on nuclear magnetic resonance (or electron spin resonace). Particularly solid state nuclear magnetic reasonance. Compare the conditions to one of the many so-called "free-energy" devices or "antigravity" devices.

The technique has been around for a while. Several folks have gotten the Nobel prize for contributions in this area.

A very simple explanation of the technique is that a sample that contains a element with a nuclear spin (a VERY popular component of many quack antigravity and "zero point" energy devices) (or an unpaired electron) is placed in an insanely high DC magnetic field provided by (nowdays) superconducting magnets. It is then irradiated with radio-waves, in the form of a sweeping continuous field or extremely short coherant high energy pulses, sometimes both at once. Usually the sample is rotated while within the field, either around an axis coincident with the field, or in the case of much work with solids, at an inclination to the field, and at extremely high rates of revoultion (another popular component of "quack" devices). In some fancy devices for examining sold samples the roation occurs around two axes at the same time. MRI (they thought the term "nuclear" as in NMR would be scary) scans are derived from this technology, and in this case, obvously the patient is not rotating. The nuclear spins in the magnetic field resonate at particular frequencies which with the proper experimental design can provide a great deal of information.

The point is, that this technnology has been around a long time, exists in every decently equipped chemical and recently medical facility, and is an active but very-well theoretically grounded area of reasearch, and a common tool as well. The edges of instrumental capabilites are ever being expanded at great expense and involve the strongest very stable magnetic fields and most powerful exquisitely controlled coherant radio frequency sources that are available in the civilian sector. A state of the art instrument costs several million dollars.

Isn't it strange that the essential theory of the phenomenon is well grounded in convential physics and no inexplicable surprises have so far arisen? Note that many "alternative" therories of "free energy" and the like involve just these kinds of conditions. Shouldn't some tiny unexplained anomaly have shown up in the area of nuclear magnetic resonance if a somewhat different application of the same physical entities leads to anti-gravity and whatever else is claimed?

I can not make a claim to be an expert in this area (that is why I an a dumb-azz chemist and not a physicist), but I have spent more than a few years of my life using and maintaining such instruments. I can tell you that superconducting magnets are very strange things, as is liquid helium. But so far, no drastic re-evaluations of electromagnetic theory have been required.

I don't doubt that at some point, someone will find something that leads to some sort of new theory. But it is worth noting that the discovery of atomic energy didn't change the way that matter under ordinary conditions behaves. Neither did the realization that the earth was round change surveying.

I readily admit that the reading will be rough going, and that there are few folks in the world that can fully understand the current state of the field of nuclear magnetic resonance after many years of study. It inolves some difficult concepts and mathematical abilities that are beyond me. But it works as advertised and seems to be consistent with the rest of physical theory. My bet stays there.

Cheers.

Josh, if you want some more entertainment, do a search on "Royal Rife microscope".
 
Let us just say that one can only run so far calling so many very responsbile, well-educated, respected people liars.
Eventually, either we fall off of the edge of the Earth or we dont.

True scientists dont have "beliefs" Right?
We observe and apply the scientific method.
We are not allowed the luxury of skepticism nor blind faith.

When 3 presidents, 17 astronauts and countless defense department people tell us that UFOs are real and that TT Brown was on the right track, I feel it is necessary to share that info and let other people do their own research.

I guess my hope is to get people to try it and possibly fail rather than "disbelieve" and not try at all.

p.s.- ARV stands for Alien Reproduction Vehicle
 
Science requires replication particularly when it claims new fundamental truths, and Brown's results haven't been. There are scads of silly, worhless patents.

So far those that have tried have failed, or very occasionally themselves provided results that are equally unreplicatable.

The linkage to UFOs has not been convincingly made, at least in what is unclassified.

The baggage that usually accompanies the attempts to replicate the claimed results detracts considerably from at least my willingness to view them as "scientific".

So far I file this right next to "crystal-power" and the "reptoid"-inhabited" huge underground facilty that is supposed to be below the Denver airport.

True large scale conspiracies are rare, and to succeed require abilities that humans have been repeatably shown not to possess . If government agencies (or executives and boards of directors of companies) can be as stupid, short-sighted, wasteful and useless as they have been shown to be while under direct public supervision, I really see no reason to expect better of them when operating in total secrecy and unaccountabilty.

But I'm a member of the Illuminati and everything I say is a lie.

Cheers.
 
Hey Danny, easy man! I don't think Josh was being an ass. His post re: NMR was spot on. There are all kinds of weird claims made regarding "New Physics" that "The Government Doesn't Want You To Know." Usually, such claims are spread over the Internet, via pamphlets and are patented, not published in peer reviewed journals. Academia has its warts, but aggressive peer review ain't one of them!

There's some guy who feels compelled, every year on November 15th, to mass mail his 50 page treatise on how Special Relativity is paradoxical and flawed to everyone in my home department: undergrads, grad students, faculty, staff, even the work study office temp! Every year, the grad students hold a little informal contest to "peer review" his work. Algebra mistakes, faulty logic, conceptual mistakes, quoting Einstein out of context (from magazine interviews, not his articles) and so forth. The master list is up to 176 errors. When we hit 200, we're planning to write him a letter... a long letter. :D

Are we cruel bastards? Sure, but physicists need something to laugh about at the coffee pot.

My point, I suppose, is that if this effect is what its proponents claim it is it'll be big news and Josh and I and all the other Illuminists who helped suppress it will have egg on our faces. But frankly, I think that's highly unlikely. The way it's being presented out there just doesn't pass the smell test. The odds of there being substantially new physics at that energy density is remote. My money is on something interesting coming out of the CERN's Large Hadron Collider and observation of black holes.

Whether or not UFOs somehow enter this discussion, I just don't know. If they exist, I'd be pretty surprised if they're zipping around on antigravity thrusters -- but that's because I don't believe matter interacts that way (at least in our neck of the woods).

I suppose this will turn out to be one of those things we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

Best,
Jon
 
Fine, Danny. (sigh)

I did make some serious responses.

But don't expect me to take that last link as evidence of much of anything.

You jump on Finn for his post, and then produce that?

I really don't know what to say...

As you suggest, best forget it.
 
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