Do you believe, and more discussion.

[Richard Coyle]

This also, is a contradicting statement. Similar to the other, slightly reworded, with the term glory added. I'm not trying to put down your belief's, I'm just pointing out that you're contradicting yourself in your explanation.

You are right... I was thinking about what I had said and realized that I didn’t explain it very well.

God gets glory in the fact that we chose to love Him. Like I said earlier. God would receive no glory if He forced us to love Him. While He did create us for His glory, He gets the glory in the fact that we chose to love Him.
And that is why he gave us a free will.

Created to love does not = forced to love. We were created for the purpose of loving and glorifying God. And it’s on us as to whether we fulfill that purpose by our choice to love Him.

I hope that makes sense

 

[JJHollowman]

It's beneficial to love rather than hate. If everybody operated from that principle the world would be a better place. I consider that to be a universal truth and one of the things the Creator hopes for every sentient being. It's the basis for love thy enemies and turn the other cheek. Wonderful in theory and wholesome for sure, hard to put into practice. It's one of those things that everybody needs to do for it to work and some people never will. Like anybody who has created offspring the Creator of life would prefer those offspring love him but like any father you can't force the kid to love you, you can only hope they do. A lot of people mature into loving God, I did. I've cobbled together what science supports and what the bible says to attempt to make sense of it all but all I really know is there's something, it's a good thing, it attempts to guide us to be good things, it's used various means to lead us to do good things. It's worked well enough that the majority know what good things are and bad things are.

 

[Lance Leon]

God deserves our love because He sent His Son to die for us. He sent Him do die even though He knew that some would reject Him. We should love Him because He showed His ultimate love by sending His son, and whether you like it or not, if we reject that love and the ultimate sacrifice, then we deserve hell.

God didn’t create the world for the purpose of putting people in it, and if they didn’t believe, sending them to hell. He created the world perfect. All Adam had to do was obey, but he messed up and that when sin started.

I've always found the concept of free will and an all-powerful, all-knowing god to be contradictory. If god, being all-powerful, creates humans, then being all-knowing (and having the plan that he does), he would also know what would happen next - supposedly Adam's disobedience. Thus he would have created Adam knowing what would occur - a set up for failure, which is then punished. Or he didn't know, and he created flawed beings (meaning he would not be all-powerful and all-knowing).

Either way seems quite misaligned with the teachings about god giving us a fair chance (free will) and being the ultimate determiner of justice.

 

[Houlahound]

Punishing the descendents of someone who committed a "sin" thousands of years ago doesn't sound like love to me.

 

[Prester John]

Punishing the descendents of a someone who committed a "sin" thousands of years ago doesn't sound like love to me.

I thought you said in your first post to respect others' beliefs. It sounds like you are ridiculing Christianity. Just saying....

 

[Richard Coyle]

Punishing the descendents of a someone who committed a "sin" thousands of years ago doesn't sound like love to me.

God didn’t want to punish mankind, but He has to because He is not only a loving God, but he is also just and righteous.

Yes he did clearly punish mankind because of Adam’s sin. But he also sent His son after the fact to save us from the punishment brought on by Adam.

God knew that when he punished Adam’s sin that he would have to send Jesus to die on the cross, and yet he did it anyways, because He is just and holy.

 

[SVTFreak]

I’m gonna chime in and back up my Christian brothers here. I believe in that (there’s the tl/dr). But I will add that i think they Bible is written to make things understandable for the people it was presented to. Example. Someone in Israel’s time of the exodus would not have been able to fathom billions of years. God knows this and uses days to help their understanding. Same with John and the revaluations. Fire breathing dragons from the sky. What would someone who have never seen a Apache attack helicopter firing mussels describe it as? I think bogging yourself down in the details makes you miss the big pictures. Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we could have a relationship through him. Prior, the relationship to God went through the priests. But when he died, the veil on the temple was torn and every individual has the opportunity through the Holy Spirit to know God.

That said, it took me a long time to come to terms and I still am. But some things happened along the way that proved to me that God exists. I’ve seen unexplained healing in my own son, due only to prayer. Does that mean I’m gonna eschew doctors and vaccines? Absolutely not. All my kids are and will be vaccinated and see doctors anytime they sneeze. Mankind’s progress was foretold in the Bible and God gave us the tools and the intelligence to get there. Unfortunately, that intelligence can lead you away from him. That is something I struggle with, to remain focused on the true voice. Those experiences helped me more fully trust him and in times when i wanted nothing more than to try to take control, but I let him have control, things worked out far better than i could ever have imagined.

I won’t debate detail points of the Bible with someone who wants only to try to change my mind. But i will have open discussions with curious people or people who hear the call deep in their hearts and need a little push. I was that person. I won’t preach cause I think that pushes people away which is contrary to the goal.

No matter what your believe though, I’ll still love you and pray for you.

*edit* there is no way I could type every single belief i have about every detail of the Bible here. I’ve got journals and journals of writings that I’ve thought, prayed and researched through.

 

[Richard Coyle]

I honestly find the Adam story to be flawed because that means God judged an entire species based on the actions of two people. To believe the Adam story is to also believe that there were only two humans originally and that implies quite a bit of incest. It also means that every bit of science we've found involving human evolution is meaningless. The Adam story couldn't have been written by Adam, so who wrote it? I think Adam was just another way to shore up the Bible as written by the humans in power at the time and to instill obeying orders from those folks as the correct way to do things, otherwise you'll be punished. When you were punished it was much easier to justify to the rest of the populace if it wasn't the leadership, it was the leadership doing the will of God. The Inquisition is a good example, same with the Salem Witch Trials.

I do believe the account of Adam to be true and plausible. First of all, it is believed that Moses wrote Genesis.

I do think that we’re just two people in the beginning and that there was “incest” in the fact that people married relatives. But you have to realize that, at the time, that was neither harmful, nor prohibited. The laws prohibiting incest came later on.
Consequently one of the main reasons that it is still illegal today is because of the harm that can come to the baby because of similarities in DNA and mutations. At the time there were very few if any mutations present.

Obviously I don’t think incest is ok now; it’s clearly prohibited later on in the Bible. But I think it was fine then because.
1 God hadn’t said not to yet
2 No mutations



As for the evolutionary evidence, I personally don’t subscribe to any of it. But that’s a discussion for another thread... or three

 

[SVTFreak]

I’m gonna say a little more.

I think many Christians are misled by their leadership. I think it is each of our individual responsibility to vet your churches leadership and ensure they are not false profits. I think each of us individually are responsible for taking care of children, old, poor (the true, honest poor, not those who choose to be poor, there is a difference). I think it is up to us to be good stewards with what we are given, and give back to help others. I believe both political parties have some good things they want to do but both are going about it wrong. And i believe that through prayer and faith, God will do anything as long as you realize it has to fall within his will. If your request would interfere with his grand plan, then it won’t be granted.

I could go in for days though haha!

 

[TJLyon711]

No matter what your believe though, I’ll still love you and pray for you.
.

Even the folks you seem to discriminate against in your following post?

think each of us individually are responsible for taking care of children, old, poor (the true, honest poor, not those who choose to be poor, there is a difference). I think it is up to us to be good stewards with what we are given, and give back to help others. /QUOTE]

What is the difference, in your mind, in folks who are poor and folks who choose to be poor? Is it not possible for both to be good people? Is it not possible for both to be true, honest people? Can you not fathom why an individual may choose to be poor?

 

[SVTFreak]

Even the folks you seem to discriminate against in your following post?

Absolutely. And there is zero discrimination in that statement.

 

[TJLyon711]

SVTFreak , not sure why my response added to your quote, but I'll post it again:

What is the difference, in your mind, in folks who are poor and folks who choose to be poor? Is it not possible for both to be good people? Is it not possible for both to be true, honest people? Can you not fathom why an individual may choose to be poor?

 

[Richard Coyle]

I don’t know what the disconnect is... I think it’s pretty clear.

No where is he saying that people that chose to be poor are not “good people” or “true, honest” people. He’s talking about helping people. He is in no way discriminating against them.

I’ll let him respond in the way that he seems fit; but I think you are misinterpreting what he was saying.

 

[TJLyon711]

I don’t know what the disconnect is... I think it’s pretty clear.

No where is he saying that people that chose to be poor are not “good people” or “true, honest” people. He’s talking about helping people. He is in no way discriminating against them.

I’ll let him respond in the way that he seems fit; but I think you are misinterpreting what he was saying.

Thank you for rethinking and editing your post to include letting the person I asked the questions to answer for themselves. I very well could be misunderstanding what SVTFreak is saying. I hope they respond to make their opinion more clear. The way I'm reading it, they pointed out there being a difference in someone who is poor and someone who chooses to be poor. I want to know what they think that difference is, and what it has to do with helping people.

 

[Houlahound]

I thought you said in your first post to respect others' beliefs. It sounds like you are ridiculing Christianity. Just saying....

If you think that if another person confuses your definition of love with horrific abuse is ridicule you might want to question why.

Are you here to talk to people or to talk at people.

I meant no ridicule or disrespect, if you read it that way then that's on you.

 

[Houlahound]

SVTFreak , not sure why my response added to your quote, but I'll post it again:

What is the difference, in your mind, in folks who are poor and folks who choose to be poor? Is it not possible for both to be good people? Is it not possible for both to be true, honest people? Can you not fathom why an individual may choose to be poor?

Well there are certainly interpretations of christianity that see poverty as a just desert. Other religions see poverty as karma and caste.

 

[SVTFreak]

SVTFreak , not sure why my response added to your quote, but I'll post it again:

What is the difference, in your mind, in folks who are poor and folks who choose to be poor? Is it not possible for both to be good people? Is it not possible for both to be true, honest people? Can you not fathom why an individual may choose to be poor?

I think what I said is quite clear. There are people who cannot do for themselves. The old. The infirm. The disabled. But there are complete healthy, smart, qualified people out there who choose not to work. I’ve seen them come through my plant, I’ve tried train them. Those folks should not be allowed to drain the social systems or private generosity that is also helping those that can’t. I am not qualified to sort out many in big grey area between able and unable but there are also many very able that a draining the current systems. While I am Christian, I also do not believe in taking from someone who has and giving to someone who does not for the simple reason of “I want it”. That discussion could become much more political and that is a one not for this thread.

 

[Prester John]

If you think that if another person confuses your definition of love with horrific abuse is ridicule you might want to question why.

Are you here to talk to people or to talk at people.

I meant no ridicule or disrespect, if you read it that way then that's on you.

God does not "punish the descendants of someone who committed a 'sin' ": we are sinners too. Adam committed the original sin, but we sin every day. And you know it--He gave you a conscience. He promised a Redeemer immediately after the Fall. Because He loves us. John 3:16. If you reject that love, "that's on you."

 

[SVTFreak]

Christianity in the surface is a very simple concept, but it is actually quite complex. That why it’s so hard to have discussions. And even harder to have arguments. I won’t participate in those. I won’t participate in ones where someone’s only goal is to “prove the Bible wrong” because you won’t.

I wasn’t always a devout Christian. I was a wishy washy. Long story short, I ended up in the current church I attend. I looked for reasons not to be there but I kept going. I gave it a chance, and, finally, put forth a little faith. I was not seeking reward. I just felt like i needed to. So I did. And I was rewarded in spades. So, I have kept putting forth that faith, sometimes reluctantly, but I am still rewarded. And when I say rewarded, don’t think money or things. While I do do well, I am talking about heart level, deep, loving commitments. Agape love, friendships, family. Deep soul contentment. Something i searched for for 40 years and only now finding. Just from putting a little faith in Jesus Christ cause I didn’t know what else to do.

 

[TAH]

If this isn't real, I don't know what is.