Do you believe, and more discussion.

[JJHollowman]

On what logical grounds do you invoke a creator to explain creation all the way up to some arbitrary point in infinity then claim it just stops at one most magical creator.

You destroy your own creator argument by pleading a special case fallacy without justification.

I don't claim to have the answers, I'm theorizing. Just because we cannot prove something scientifically yet doesn't mean it isn't true. At what point would a being be so advanced that we'd accept is as God? We're not natives making planes out of palm leaves. We're advanced enough scientifically at this point that we think aliens are now visitors from another planet, not God. Did they teach us good and evil? What gave us a conscience? We have one, most of us. If it would be productive to slay somebody and take their wife and belongings, why don't we? And why would the people in charge not want us to do that? Under that plan only the strongest would survive and thrive. That's evolution. Smartest, strongest, fastest, best, rise to the top.

 

[JJHollowman]

I do like debating this stuff. I also appreciate the time folks are taking to talk about it.

 

[JJHollowman]

Here's something. AA, NA, etc are proven to work and for those programs a main requirement is to give up trying to control it yourself and leave it to a higher power to take care of. Although i don't think there's God somewhere saying "ah, another six dudes are going on the wagon, I'll send some help, good deal", I think they need that as part of the program for it to succeed. How does that work? In giving a large part of the responsibility for their own recovery to a higher power, it works better than if they do it themselves. Why?

 

[Houlahound]

Why are the good folk good? Who's to say that being nuts is evil? Who's to say that serial killers are evil? How do we label those things? We know those things are evil, how?

I never mentioned evil you did. I am saying acting that way has consequences and people that act that way will be removed from the gene pool as quick as they are identified.

No belief in god required the psychopath that does harm to the pack for no good reason will be eliminated by the pack not god - humans call it morality other species call it pack survival and it is fully explained by evolution. Here is the hierarchy;

Survival of species
Survival of pack/tribe
Survival of self.

Any self that that disrupts the hierarchy too much e.g. a psychopath will eventually be eliminated by the pack to preserve the hierarchy of survival.

Population evolution not god.
Species survival not morality per se.

 

[Houlahound]

I do like debating this stuff. I also appreciate the time folks are taking to talk about it.

same, just a bit of fun. Anyone who gets butthurt easy should stay out.

 

[JJHollowman]

I never mentioned evil you did. I am saying acting that way has consequences and people that act that way will be removed from the gene pool as quick as they are identified.

No belief in god required the psychopath that does harm to the pack for no good reason will be eliminated by the pack not god - humans call it morality other species call it pack survival and it is fully explained by evolution. Here is the hierarchy;

Survival of species
Survival of pack/tribe
Survival of self.

Any self that that disrupts the hierarchy too much e.g. a psychopath will eventually be eliminated by the pack to preserve the hierarchy of survival.

Population evolution not god.
Species survival not morality per se.

Does it make you feel better or worse to think there's no God? Take a second and think about it. Say "there is a God", then say there isn't.

 

[Houlahound]

Does it make you feel better or worse to think there's no God? Take a second and think about it. Say "there is a God", then say there isn't.

Which god are you referring to?? There are thousands documented.

Some I would not feel better thinking they exist, yet others sound neat and some are just meh.

So which God/s you talking about??

 

[Richard Coyle]

On every level I can think of it is extremely degrading, and denies all humans any dignity and reduces us all to psychopathic soulless, mindless slaves created only to worship and fear god.

IMO we were created to love, worship, and respect God. But we are not “mindless slaves” in the fact that we have a free will. What kind of love is it if it’s forced?

Oh and yeah, pretty much all televangelists are crooks.

 

[Houlahound]

IMO we were created to love, worship, and respect God. But we are not “mindless slaves” in the fact that we have a free will. What kind of love is it if it’s forced?

Oh and yeah, pretty much all televangelists are crooks.

Why would a God want to create a universe just to be worshipped, loved and respect by mortals.

That sounds sick, it's like Hitler + Stalin + North Korea + every crazy psycho dictator in history multiplied by infinity.

How is this love forced if the alternative is burning in hell forever and not having any ability to dial down the pain, that's free will??

 

[Lance Leon]

Why are the good folk good? Who's to say that being nuts is evil? Who's to say that serial killers are evil? How do we label those things? We know those things are evil, how?

I don't think anything is innately evil or innately good, in the sense that the universe, a mystical force, or a god has set the rules for all living beings to follow. It can be explained, as Houlahound said, by the survival drive and the resultant social psychology. There's a reason why every rule that the modern society we live in thinks of as inalienable rights or absolutely evil has not been constant through every other culture, society, or individual in time. In fact for most of human existence, a significant portion of current common morality was not in vogue. That's because what is viewed as necessary for survival (of the individual and of the group) varies with each respective situation. The world today is one where most countries are dependent on one another for trade and security, where people have devoted their lives entirely to working or studying and not to defending the home or the tribe, and thus highly value avoiding conflict and mutual benefit.

I do not think anyone knows what is evil for a fact. There is just common agreement between members of a society, usually for mutual benefit. People just don't realize it because it seems innate - you were taught these morals and then find that they're congruent with the world you live in, and so it appears to make sense that they are innate.

Hopefully my explanation is coherent. I studied psychology for a few years but I don't have a degree (yet) haha.

 

[TJLyon711]

IMO we were created to love, worship, and respect God. But we are not “mindless slaves” in the fact that we have a free will. What kind of love is it if it’s forced?

Not to be rude, but this is a contradicting statement you've made here. Created to love = forced love.

 

[TJLyon711]

I don't claim to have the answers, I'm theorizing. Just because we cannot prove something scientifically yet doesn't mean it isn't true. At what point would a being be so advanced that we'd accept is as God? We're not natives making planes out of palm leaves. We're advanced enough scientifically at this point that we think aliens are now visitors from another planet, not God. Did they teach us good and evil? What gave us a conscience? We have one, most of us. If it would be productive to slay somebody and take their wife and belongings, why don't we? And why would the people in charge not want us to do that? Under that plan only the strongest would survive and thrive. That's evolution. Smartest, strongest, fastest, best, rise to the top.

Good and Evil are concepts man gave you.

 

[Richard Coyle]

Why would a God want to create a universe just to be worshipped, loved and respect by mortals.

That sounds sick, it's like Hitler + Stalin + North Korea + every crazy psycho dictator in history multiplied by infinity.

How is this love forced if the alternative is burning in hell forever and not having any ability to dial down the pain, that's free will??

First off, Stalin and Hitler didn’t create anything. And they didn’t want the love of their people; they wanted the complete submission of their people, even if it meant doing countless horrific things to other people. God is not out killing his own people, and He’s definetly not out killing 6 million people, like said monsters.

 

[Richard Coyle]

I also never said that he created the universe for the purpose of being loved by the people he would make. He made the people for his honor and glory.

 

[Richard Coyle]

Not to be rude, but this is a contradicting statement you've made here. Created to love = forced love.

We were created for God’s glory, and we bring glory to Him by loving Him and honoring Him. God would receive no glory if we were forced to love Him.

 

[TJLyon711]

We were created for God’s glory, and we bring glory to Him by loving Him and honoring Him. God would receive no glory if we were forced to love Him.

This also, is a contradicting statement. Similar to the other, slightly reworded, with the term glory added. I'm not trying to put down your belief's, I'm just pointing out that you're contradicting yourself in your explanation.

 

[Houlahound]

We were created for God’s glory, and we bring glory to Him by loving Him and honoring Him. God would receive no glory if we were forced to love Him.

The alternative to not worshipping, loving and now glorifying god is infinite suffering in hell, you are not describing love or glory here.

 

[Houlahound]

I also never said that he created the universe for the purpose of being loved by the people he would make. He made the people for his honor and glory.

So what was the universe created for, I assume it's a place for worshippers to live?

 

[Richard Coyle]

The alternative to not worshipping, loving and now glorifying god is infinite suffering in hell, you are not describing love or glory here.

God deserves our love because He sent His Son to die for us. He sent Him do die even though He knew that some would reject Him. We should love Him because He showed His ultimate love by sending His son, and whether you like it or not, if we reject that love and the ultimate sacrifice, then we deserve hell.

God didn’t create the world for the purpose of putting people in it, and if they didn’t believe, sending them to hell. He created the world perfect. All Adam had to do was obey, but he messed up and that when sin started.

 

[JJHollowman]

God deserves our love because He sent His Son to die for us. He sent Him do die even though He knew that some would reject Him. We should love Him because He showed His ultimate love by sending His son, and whether you like it or not, if we reject that love and the ultimate sacrifice, then we deserve hell.

God didn’t create the world for the purpose of putting people in it, and if they didn’t believe, sending them to hell. He created the world perfect. All Adam had to do was obey, but he messed up and that when sin started.

I honestly find the Adam story to be flawed because that means God judged an entire species based on the actions of two people. To believe the Adam story is to also believe that there were only two humans originally and that implies quite a bit of incest. It also means that every bit of science we've found involving human evolution is meaningless. The Adam story couldn't have been written by Adam, so who wrote it? I think Adam was just another way to shore up the Bible as written by the humans in power at the time and to instill obeying orders from those folks as the correct way to do things, otherwise you'll be punished. When you were punished it was much easier to justify to the rest of the populace if it wasn't the leadership, it was the leadership doing the will of God. The Inquisition is a good example, same with the Salem Witch Trials.