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Flipping!

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Good conversation, and some good points. Blade 2016 was an eye opener for me... There are niches in our hobby that are more like a cult. I couldn't count the number of mid-tech custom makers that had knives on their table that couldn't even be bought. You had to put your name in a lottery with a few hundred other folks and if they drew out your name - then you could pay $1000 for the knife. But flippers have been out there for years. Probably 8-10 years ago I had a customer that was buying the same knife every couple of weeks. I finally went and checked eBay and found him. He was buying the Schatt & Morgan Mountain Man from me for $70 and averaging around $125 on eBay. At the time, I spent some time thinking about that and decided that it was none of my business what he did with it once he owned it. Also, I was / am not going to try and play the game of figured out just how much I can squeeze out of someone on any given knife just because it is popular. I have seen dealers hold back Charlie's SFO's just to run them on eBay themselves; and I have seen Rendezvous knives for sale for double the money while the Rendezvous is still happening.

For my part, you get the opportunity in the order you put your name on the list. And if I have a standby list, each person is limited to one; this is actually really easy on my platform. But once they are generally available I do have folks that will come back and pick up several if they are speculating on them. I have zero "good ole boy" setbacks despite those that always get their feelings hurt because they "thought we were friends" :D

There are many folks that will get on every dealers reserve list for really short stuff. I can't stop a husband and wife from both getting on the reservation list. But I have spotted a couple of people "selling" their reservation and had to implement a rule prohibiting it.

Generally, my opinion is that it is none of my business what they do with something once they own it. If I can help insure that everyone that wants one gets one without having to go to the secondary market - I will. But there have been many knives that i knew I was paying too much just so I could fill that hole in my collection without wondering if I would ever see it again; and if it didn't bother me, it shouldn't bother someone else.
 
gonebad395 said:
I'm not a flipper by any means but if a person buys or beats you to a knife and can sell it for more the he bought it for that's his thing. If he can sit all day while you are at work and buy them all up agian that's his thing if you are mad about it that's your problem not his. I get it I love the hobby but being upset cause you didn't win the race is lame. If I buy a gallon of milk and walk out the door and have a person offer me 3 times as much for it I'm selling it. If someone buying items they like and selling them for what people will pay for them bugs ya maybe this or these kinda hobbies arent for you because it happens in all of them
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Nobody minds people selling a knife for a profit, but only buying them to make gain is another matter entirely. Collecting is not a race or a game (that's for people who get bored easily then give up a hobby and look for another sensation) it's about appreciation, knowledge and evaluation. Your analogy of a gallon of milk is poor: not too many people approach somebody who has just bought a knife and haven't even got it home, offering them three times as much. Mr Flipper would be actively advertising milk at that price before even leaving the shop! One part of the analogy may hold though - milk goes off, becomes sour, so can trends. :barf:

There's a world of difference between the mentalities of 'Must Have' and 'Would Like to Have'
 
This issue is caused by the people at every level, from manufacturer to final consumer/collector.
Fans in the Trad forum talked up GEC to such an extent, they were practically advertising for this to happen. GEC could stop it, by charging more or producing more. Or by cutting out the retailer & just selling online themselves.

I have virtually stopped going to the Trad forum, due to the inane fan behaviour over GEC. They are nice knives, but not that great. The same behaviour has been happening with ZT, Hinderer has made a business model on it. I'm sure there are other examples.

You love GEC for the old fashioned style & construction, but they are a modern business operating in the modern world. Times have changed.
 
I've seen knives on the Exchange for higher than retail when the knives are still available from dealers. I've also sold knives at cost on the Exchange with the condition that they not be resold for profit and later discovered that the knives were resold for profit or traded for profit (in some cases over $100-200 difference). There may be a few guys taking things to the extreme but a lot of knives on the Exchange are higher than retail. There are a lot of guys regularly buying one or two or three of everything and then reselling.

Someone called the ordering process a "lolly grab". The text alerts for new preorders help to give everyone an equal chance. As I mentioned a day ago in another topic, advance notice and updates on when to expect new items would be really helpful, especially for stocked items. There are people continuously asking about availability and refreshing pages for days to get a shot at the short runs. If everyone knows when the knives will be available then everyone has a chance.
 
mtangent said:
This issue is caused by the people at every level, from manufacturer to final consumer/collector.
Fans in the Trad forum talked up GEC to such an extent, they were practically advertising for this to happen. GEC could stop it, by charging more or producing more. Or by cutting out the retailer & just selling online themselves.

I have virtually stopped going to the Trad forum, due to the inane fan behaviour over GEC. They are nice knives, but not that great. The same behaviour has been happening with ZT, Hinderer has made a business model on it. I'm sure there are other examples.

You love GEC for the old fashioned style & construction, but they are a modern business operating in the modern world. Times have changed.
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The nail has just been hit on the head .
But the majority of the Traditional crowd will never read , understand , or contemplate it because it was moved over here .

Ken
 
It's a discussion forum and it would be no fun at all if people didn't get excited and discuss the knives. The hubbub is definitely good (and free) advertising for GEC. But I do wonder if flipping for profit was completely eliminated (assuming that is possible even though it isn't.), then how many guys would still be buying knives... or as many knives... or as many duplicates of each run?
 
Thanks to all who have contributed so far from all sides of the discussion, some insightful (and funny) posts without making it prsonal. Particular thanks to Mike Latham who probably has a greater insight into this than most.

Personally I agree that whilst demand outstrips supply there will be flipping somewhere but should it be here? ebay is a completely sterile environment where you can literally buy or sell anything, this should be a forum for individuals who are passionate about knives. I would like to see it made more difficult to flip here, be that by tightening up on dealer membership criteria or introducing a resale mark up limit on knives within a given period from release (say 1 year).

Happy to hear why this wouldn't work:)
 
It would be time consuming for moderators and difficult to police. I suspect it would also adversely affect the number of gold memberships purchased, the number of listings on the Exchange would decrease, and more sales would move to Ebay. At present most of the extreme cases are buying here and selling on Ebay already. So tightening up dealer criteria wouldn't affect those individuals.

I think giving everyone advance notice and regular updates on availability is really the best way to make sure that everyone has a chance to buy the knives.
 
avoidspam said:
Thanks to all who have contributed so far from all sides of the discussion, some insightful (and funny) posts without making it prsonal. Particular thanks to Mike Latham who probably has a greater insight into this than most.

Personally I agree that whilst demand outstrips supply there will be flipping somewhere but should it be here? ebay is a completely sterile environment where you can literally buy or sell anything, this should be a forum for individuals who are passionate about knives. I would like to see it made more difficult to flip here, be that by tightening up on dealer membership criteria or introducing a resale mark up limit on knives within a given period from release (say 1 year).

Happy to hear why this wouldn't work:)
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Wouldn't you rather see it happening, & know all about it, than have it happen behind your back?
 
meako said:
Sadly shipping and paypal fees are imo a separate penalty.It simply costs a bit to send stuff.I feel that such costs are not part of the flippage.
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sometimes ya just gotta accept a loss and resell it for equal or lesser value than what ya paid.. especially when it's a catch-and-release... price creep seems selfish there and so I personally pass those instances up
 
trevitrace said:
You don't buy milk with the same expectation. But it is a pretty limited item, so your example holds. :rolleyes:

Tell you what though, I've got a bottle of Gatorade if you're interested. Heck, I'll even cut you a deal.
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See that's the thing if I wanted it bad enough I'd buy it not sit here and whine fowl
 
Will Power said:
Nobody minds people selling a knife for a profit, but only buying them to make gain is another matter entirely. Collecting is not a race or a game (that's for people who get bored easily then give up a hobby and look for another sensation) it's about appreciation, knowledge and evaluation. Your analogy of a gallon of milk is poor: not too many people approach somebody who has just bought a knife and haven't even got it home, offering them three times as much. Mr Flipper would be actively advertising milk at that price before even leaving the shop! One part of the analogy may hold though - milk goes off, becomes sour, so can trends. :barf:

There's a world of difference between the mentalities of 'Must Have' and 'Would Like to Have'
Click to expand...

As said before its their money they can do with it as they see fit. If they buy a knife and flip it that's their money to do what they want with. If you want the item they are beating you to try harder to get if you don't well guess what you can always buy it from the flipper. This comes up all the time somebody didn't get a knife they wanted the butt hurt happens for awhile then the everything should be fair police come out. But in the end this thread will disappear the flippers will keep flipping and the wronged will keep crying.
 
I haven't bought a GEC in about a year. I used to be able to go to my preferred dealer and pick one out. Lately there is growing interest and not enough knives to go around. This has been happening more and more the past couple years. So i stopped buying. I decided to use the knives I already have and enjoy them. Eventually people will stop paying the inflated prices and the flippers will move on. Until then I've got my 73 scout and 22 magnum both in cocobolo seeing daily carry and use.
 
The main point of discussion here is how one feels about the practice. Some hate it, others in the middle, some don't care. I myself don't like the idea in general, but we are not talking about food or water here during a disaster. No one has to have a certain knife. If you put it up for sale and you get your asking price....you sold it, you got what you wanted. Now the knife is no longer yours. The new owner can use it, put it in a safe, run it over with a truck, or sell it. It's theirs now. Flippers can be irritating, but no one has to buy from them either. There is not really much to do about it in a free market and ultimately that is the system we live in .......unless our government keeps pushing more socialism.
 
Gastonknife said:
The main point of discussion here is how one feels about the practice. Some hate it, others in the middle, some don't care. I myself don't like the idea in general, but we are not talking about food or water here during a disaster. No one has to have a certain knife. If you put it up for sale and you get your asking price....you sold it, you got what you wanted. Now the knife is no longer yours. The new owner can use it, put it in a safe, run it over with a truck, or sell it. It's theirs now. Flippers can be irritating, but no one has to buy from them either. There is not really much to do about it in a free market and ultimately that is the system we live in .......unless our government keeps pushing more socialism.
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Agree^^^^^
 
If you want to get rid of "flippers" then stop obsessively needing to have every new knife that comes out.

These people are not stupid, they are the epitomy of the ugly side of free market Capitalism (something ironically that we all hold so dear to our hearts)

They play on the materialistic-need-to-have-it-now-at-any-cost mentality that is society these days.
Mix that in with a little OCD that every true collector has and you get this perceived "problem"

You want them gone, show some patience. Patience kills the whole idea of how to make money as a "flipper"
 
It's a common practise done in the modern knife community.

It's become common on ebay for the traditional one due to some makers being limited as well as short run SFO's/production knives.

It's highly optimistic to think someone will sell what they paid for.

But repeated buying only to markup on ebay without any appreciation for said knife,
(while others who were beat out/would undoubtably appreciate far more) isn't cool.
 
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