GSO 3.5 (2nd Generation)

chiral.grolim said:
I am sure he was looking for the most consistent job he could get that met spec. :thumbsup: Note that the switch to Millit was for a reason, not random. As to the 4.1s and even the 7/7s, those have been in production with the blanks at the grinder and getting shipped back to S!K in batches, i.e. only that contractor is making this run. As for the as yet UN-cut knives (6, 12, 10, 4.5, and the next run of 5.1s), those are supposed to go to Millit unless something changes AGAIN, and I have a very hard time imagining Guy springing for concavity on those.

With the negativity that trolls BEG to feast upon and blow well out of proportion, I again advise staying calm and not jumping to conclusions after a single pic of a single sample blank. The one thing S!K could do with less of is unfounded anger or disappointment. Save that for the appropriate time. That is all.
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I believe many of the patient supporters will tolerate with waiting times but the new light on the possibilities of a hollow grind is a serious one. As you can see that many of us are reasonable and are waiting for a formal reply/information from S!K directly instead of jumping the gun. Many of us ordered knowing/wanting a knife with flat-saber as advertised but if it comes with a hollow grind, it's will be a bait-and-switch right?

No one wants to pay for a Ferrari and get a Porsche, no doubt they still work as intended but it's not really the same...

Troll will be trolls. Just dont feed them.
 
squarebox86 said:
I believe many of the patient supporters will tolerate with waiting times but the new light on the possibilities of a hollow grind is a serious one. As you can see that many of us are reasonable and are waiting for a formal reply/information from S!K directly instead of jumping the gun. Many of us ordered knowing/wanting a knife with flat-saber as advertised but if it comes with a hollow grind, it's will be a bait-and-switch right?

No one wants to pay for a Ferrari and get a Porsche, no doubt they still work as intended but it's not really the same...

Troll will be trolls. Just dont feed them.
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Don't believe I could say it any more clearly than you just did. I have no clue of where my GSO orders fall in the line of batches that will receive one grind vs. the possible alternative, I can't see anyone disagreeing with curiosity. If the alternative, I want and should expect an option due to the fact an "option" wasn't provided for the potential alternative of a hollow grind. Just want some true answers, nothing more. Yes, I believe many other members and customers waiting on their Knives need to address this as it is a serious issue.
 
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Oyster said:
They are. The question is whether hollow or flat saber.
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These NEED to be flat sabers.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I think Survive needs to get themselves on the right track now if they plan on living up to their full potential. Millit needs to provide the ability to produce what everyone pre-ordered thinking they would receive, or SK! needs to reach out to another manufacturer.
 
Of course, it would be nice if they were more forthcoming with information, but that hasn't really been their strong suit.
Based on the responses that others have reported, it does seem that they are taking the issue seriously.
 
I'm wanting to add to the theme here, with the hopes that Survive! are paying attention, that a hollow grind is not acceptable. It wasn't advertised as such when I was deciding to buy my knives and nor is it what I want.

I'm trying to remain somewhat tentative about how I understand this situation but I am really unhappy that nobody from Survive! has stepped forward to fully and officially address the issue as of yet. I think Survive! need to make a real effort with those of us that are trying to be understanding and patient about their circumstances. This means managing our anxieties by consulting with us and keeping us in the loop especially about something as significant as a change in geometry. The idea that we can buy into a product, which is then changed for the makers expediency but to the customer's detriment is way past acceptable for me. Especially within the context of already trying to be accepting about other problems.

In fact, even being willing to pursue and set up such geometrical changes without consulting their customer's to begin with is a really big problem for me. I find myself unable to imagine that it wasn't discussed about what was and wasn't possible for Millit to produce prior to Survive! committing to them and anouncing the SK line. And if true, we were permitted to continue buying new knives without being informed about what we were actually getting. I hope I'm wrong with my 'reasoned' speculations and that Millit are able to produce a flat grind. If they have to change away from Millit to do this though then I will be fairly convinced about my assumptions.

I know that nothing is absolute at this point but what's just occured has really pushed me to the edge of my acceptance of Survive! whereas before I've been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I even signed up to this forum to argue for a more reasonable approach to understanding Survive's situation. However, I may just end up cancelling all of my orders in the next few days unless I know something certain as difficult as that would be for me. I can't help but now feel suspicious about my F2.7 or 7/7 turning up with hollow grinds without any kind of notification having been given about a change. This concern feels consistent with what Survive! seems to be doing though.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Survive! plan on finishing off the 2.7s as soon as possible? If I do stay invested, I also have to deal with my inept (UK) government's attempts to ban all online sales and deliveries of knives, which may come into law within the next 2-3 months if it goes through. I asked Survive! in an email that also asked other things and they missed that question in their response. I may end up having to cancel all my remaining orders one way or the other unfortunately.
 
mumblings said:
I'm wanting to add to the theme here, with the hopes that Survive! are paying attention, that a hollow grind is not acceptable. It wasn't advertised as such when I was deciding to buy my knives and nor is it what I want.

I'm trying to remain somewhat tentative about how I understand this situation but I am really unhappy that nobody from Survive! has stepped forward to fully and officially address the issue as of yet. I think Survive! need to make a real effort with those of us that are trying to be understanding and patient about their circumstances. This means managing our anxieties by consulting with us and keeping us in the loop especially about something as significant as a change in geometry. The idea that we can buy into a product, which is then changed for the makers expediency but to the customer's detriment is way past acceptable for me. Especially within the context of already trying to be accepting about other problems.

In fact, even being willing to pursue and set up such geometrical changes without consulting their customer's to begin with is a really big problem for me. I find myself unable to imagine that it wasn't discussed about what was and wasn't possible for Millit to produce prior to Survive! committing to them and anouncing the SK line. And if true, we were permitted to continue buying new knives without being informed about what we were actually getting. I hope I'm wrong with my 'reasoned' speculations and that Millit are able to produce a flat grind. If they have to change away from Millit to do this though then I will be fairly convinced about my assumptions.

I know that nothing is absolute at this point but what's just occured has really pushed me to the edge of my acceptance of Survive! whereas before I've been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I even signed up to this forum to argue for a more reasonable approach to understanding Survive's situation. However, I may just end up cancelling all of my orders in the next few days unless I know something certain as difficult as that would be for me. I can't help but now feel suspicious about my F2.7 or 7/7 turning up with hollow grinds without any kind of notification having been given about a change. This concern feels consistent with what Survive! seems to be doing though.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Survive! plan on finishing off the 2.7s as soon as possible? If I do stay invested, I also have to deal with my inept (UK) government's attempts to ban all online sales and deliveries of knives, which may come into law within the next 2-3 months if it goes through. I asked Survive! in an email that also asked other things and they missed that question in their response. I may end up having to cancel all my remaining orders one way or the other unfortunately.
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I would email them again and only address this if I were you.
 
Millet responded to Kylevonward's instagram inquiry (and indirectly, Chiral's) about the hollow grind yesterday, stating:
  • millitknives@kylevonward Essentially no, it will be a very super shallow hollow grind. Basically to the point it is almost a complete flat grind.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZPwILwlsLY/?taken-by=millitknives

Although this is not from the mouth of Survive! itself, it's about as "official" of a response as I've seen. It is not speculation or armchair analysis of a photo (no matter how adept your skill or professionalism- no mailce intended) but a statement of what to expect from the actual producer. That said, it does not mean that it is contractually agreed upon or even accepted by Survive!. These are works in progress and posts from a well intending person who may not be speaking with 100% accuracy or be ready for the type of scrutiny brought to bear in this sub.

Further, I don't personally know enough about how Survive! has executed the grind thus far to determine if Millet is replicating what Guy has been doing. Millet's description may be simply offering the detail we did not previously posses on how Guy obtained his own "flat" grind.

I, too, would greatly appreciate some customer facing interaction from Survive! to clarify if there is a difference. The subcontractor is publicly stating details of the grind that seem to imply that the design has changed and that future production will follow suit. I would really like to hear conclusively from Survive! about design changes and effects thereof- or let us know if this is mereley a replication of Guy's own technique.
 
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I think a change in the grind is material enough to merit a statement from S!K.
Having said that, I also believe that a very shallow hollow grind - and assuming there isn't much of a "T" to result in noticeable binding - might even be a plus for a knife in the 3.5" range, esp. with a relatively thick stock at .140.
BUT, I would like to hear thoughts about 20CV vs D3V. Those of us that chose 20CV effectively opted for an increase in wear resistance at the expense of edge stability. We know that D3V can hold up very (!) well even when ground thin, so I wouldn't have any concerns with that steel.
Again, these are my thoughts re the 3.5, not re the larger (e.g. 6) blades.
 
Fancier said:
Please help me out, I can't find where Survive promised to make flat ground knives.
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Always on point, Fancier :) Thank you for calling it out. I was taking it for granted, as well.

Although I agree with Oyster that there is an implied standard that seems to be pretty flat to my uneducated eye, it is not a "full flat", and Survive!'s FAQ page goes so far as to call out that they in fact do NOT do full flat grinds, but that grinds can vary by production run or special release:

http://surviveknives.com/faq

How can I order a knife with a scandi or full flat grind?
Right now our knives are what they are for a given production run. To keep costs down, production runs are made in batches of hundreds, which makes it impossible for us to do a handful of unique blades. With that being said, Guy has a lot of great ideas. Some of those ideas will show up in a "Custom" section and some may appear as full production runs. The best way to stay informed about the availability of different grind options would be to keep up with one of our social media outlets and/or sign up for the SURVIVE! newsletter.

That is the only place on the website that I could find explicit discussion of grinds. That returns me to my earlier inference that Millet may in fact be using Guy's own technique, perhaps it was never as flat as some of us thought it was, and we simply were not used to/expecting Millet's verbiage. To Fancier's point, and as explicitly stated in the FAQ as it pertains to grinds: the knives "are what they are for a given production run".

So after beating around the bush, I'll state it explicitly: we may be turning another molehill into a mountain. If the knives are inferior when released, respond as you see fit. For now, kind folks at Millet are just showing us works in progress, and those works beg constant change. I understand the current atmosphere of anxiety, but I also recall the past 2 1/2 years wait has not been without reward. It brought us peened finish, the Delta protocol, microtextured scales, and numerous machining improvements that aren't at all obvious from my vantage as a user, but clearly yield a superior tool. After adding these R&D upgrades for free, I am able to hold the faith that any changes initiated by Guy will be create a better knife for the promised intent. If there is a change here, based upon history, it is more likely to benefit us.

My request for Survive's presence here is for my own comfort and interest in hearing about the ongoing production. I enjoy being able to engage, even on a limited level, with the knifemaker.
 
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Oyster said:
^ S!K has never released a full flat grind that I am aware of. They have all been flat saber.
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;p

Please excuse my mush brain- perhaps it has been struck by a full flat :) . but hopefully the gist of what I was trying to say/what Fancier pointed out still came across: that no particular grind was promised. Although that seemingly open ended statement could dismay some, it has never been used to trick a customer into buying a knife that didn't serve the advertised purpose. Guy's history has been to push for continued improvement of his tools for the prescribed purpose, and anyone who has used one can attest to that.
 
Packerrat said:
;p

Please excuse my mush brain- perhaps it has been struck by a full flat :) . but hopefully the gist of what I was trying to say/what Fancier pointed out: that no particular grind was promised, and although that seemingly open ended statement could dismay some, it has never been used to trick a customer into buying a knife that didn't serve the advertised purpose. Guy's history has been to push for continued improvement of his tools for the prescribed purpose.
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Customers had an - IMO justified - expectation re the grind based on ALL of the past releases. They did experiment with a scandi version but, as we know, that was never released and has been reworked into a different model where the changes were explained.
I generally agree with the statement re Guy's continued efforts to provide a superior product. At the same time, and in light of the company's financial woes and delays in getting product to customers, I don't think it's fair to fault anyone for wondering whether any of the recent changes were possibly motivated by cost-cutting or time-saving considerations rather than performance.
 
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Fancier said:
Please help me out, I can't find where Survive promised to make flat ground knives.
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Very true but why would anyone believe we'd receive any other grind as ALL their models up to this point have had the same blade grind. Its hard to believe you cannot see where we are coming from on this issue, if you do however you always have a countering statement. I didn't realize that I would have needed to contact S!K ahead of my orders to find out which primary grind my Survive Knife was going to be. As you see, the general consensus wants and should deserve an answer to a very legitimate subject.
 
Bottom line if there was known information (and from what is known of Millit now) that the primary grind was going to be different even at the slightest, it should have easily been voiced/released onto the monthly production updates or on this sub-forum.
 
oh my goodness. this is going sideways quick. I agree with Scout and Oyster- IF there is in fact a difference. Absolutely, without hesitation: there should not be a major design change without consulting the customers who paid up front, based upon the promise of a particular design. But is there a difference? Is that conclusive yet, or is this just another misunderstanding?

What I'm not clear on is if we are seizing upon Millet's vernacular, in error. What if Millet is going to be doing precisely what Guy has been doing this whole time, but we never heard it described that way before? How did Guy grind the prior iterations? I can't tell you without holding a 3.5 up next to another knife, or hearing from Guy.

My quote from the FAQ about not promising a particular grind was meant more to highlight that the exact type of grind that they are using was not specified, not to scare everyone into thinking they could radically change their designs over night.

Sounds like I must have missed some of your analyses in this thread somewhere, I will try to go back through and review them. and if you get an update from Survive!, Mumblings, please come share it. :)
 
I think we could also all agree that the current provider cutting blades did a great job overall and the few that got kicked back to the 2nds or ugly betty's weren't all that UGLY and very few had issues with the grind, more cosmetic issues than anything. Should make one wonder why there was not an investment placed into the hands of this current company providing this service where we've all gotten accustomed to their level craftsmanship. Of course this is personal speculation but could/was maybe was a viable option. I just have to wonder that much more why the decision was to place this initiative into the hands of a company that produces a blade with a different grind which yes, changes original specs to a degree. Also why 2.5 years later (Post-Starter) this is the only proto-type provided, I know the Starter Campaign had other intentions as well: get caught up on things (orders), get other projects started and equipment purchased but it becomes clearer to me that progress has regressed vs. progressed. Yes I remain hopeful but overly cautious.
 
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