Handgun choices???

We are all human. I guess it came out sounding like a Fate Accompli, but what I ment is that it happens, and no amount of training, or confidence will keep it from happening to you.
Luck is nice, but it ain't dependable.
I hope I cleared that up, Leo.
 
Well, if you meant to say that it could (as opposed to will) happen to the best of us, I'm forced to agree. Still, the purpose of training is to minimize that sort of mishap, among other things, and that it does admirably.

Leo
 
Did my American comment get misunderstood?
I thought it was pretty obvious I was making a joke... that's what I do...
Anyhow, I HAVE practiced with the alternating rounds in my magazines... probably 4 mags worth.
Yes, there's a difference in placement, but not enough to make a difference in the ranges I'm likely to be using the weapon in defense.

With both rounds, I can consistantly hit tin cans up to about 30 feet. Anything beyone that range, I'm probably gonna be too busy running away for the difference to matter.
VG

PS - Nobody brought it up, but I might as well say it...
There's a question of reliability with different kinds of ammo and my Glock has no problem feeding anything I tried.
In fact, while training with an LEO pal of mine, he loaded some expended cases into the magazine to train me for that tap-rack-bang drill, and the Glock loaded the empty cases just as well as ball ammo.
 
VG,

Where did you get that idea of alternating ammo?

You are asking for a feeding problem; especially in rapid firer.

Load with Hydra-Shock period.

In 9mm Hydra-Shock 147 grain.

Why are we sold on GLOCKS?

Because are life might depend on it.

I'm buy American too, but not when my life depends on it.

Leo knows what he is talking about.


Social cameleon,

"I don't care who you are, if you carry a gun, you will eventually shoot the wrong person."

Tell that to the police.

If you believe that, you shouldn't be carrying a gun.
 
I vote for the Glock as well. A model 23 w/trijicons and 13 135 gr CorBon's has been my daily carry since '93. They are, imo, unequalled for reliability and function.
 
Social cameleon,

It is obvious you are a little less than knowledgeable on these subjects.

If you can't get two to the chest, and one to the head under "stressfire", don't carry because your right, you are gong to shoot the wrong person someday. Put "distance" between yourself and the "crackhead" in a hurry. If his assault is too fast or close, head and center mass shots from a recessed presentation is the answer. I recall the comment I quoted, was made by a SEAL I was quoting. SEALS aren't typically shooting at Flailing Crackheads, their shooting at wannabe soldiers and pro's alike. CJ's boss, who will remain namelesss here, used to train his guys do Dynamic Entries, and Jet Liner Hostage Rescues shooting "very quickly" and "between" hostages at 3x5 cards. Thats pretty precisioned in a high speed, high stress, multiple friendly, multiple target situation. I'll take the SEAL on the Discovery Channel's word over yours thank you.

If you want to shoot and bail, you'll more than likely get charged with Manslaughter, or Murder as a potential fleeing felon when they find you, and "they will". Any Instructor will tell you to know the laws of your State, or the State you are carrying in regarding culpability and the use of lethal force. You should "never" take a shot that is questionable enough that you have to "bail out" because you might get charged. Leave the scene, and they will pick you up a few days later when they track your ballistics. This isn't the stone age of investigation anymore. My idea: scan for threats(his buddies), wait until the boys in blue show up, surrender your weapon, ask for your lawyer, and call Massad Ayoob to be your professional witness. It really helps your case if you have had some professional training, which I will let Mas explain when you go to LFI. You LFI guys know what I am talking about. BTW: Mas has not lost a case yet it is my understanding.

In Awerbucks "Yavapai" Class, he wasn't very sympathetic to your excuses on "shot placement" during "fast draw" after the first day. He would drill you until you could basically "point shoot" a 2" group at 10' and 20' (most gun fights are at less than 21' by the way cameleon). You would not go to the next step until you perfected it, period! Then the targets were folded and angled to give you far less target area to further enhance your skills, etc., etc., etc.

Snipers don't take "three" shots to take out a single target. If they do, they are quickly transferred to the Motor Pool for Mechanics 101. If they are Navy Snipers, transferred to Boiler Tech School. Any US Military Sniper who has to make two to the chest and one to the head is NOT supporting anyone, and is potentially causing a political nightmare for the US Government because like you, he is going to shoot the wrong person someday.

Don't want anyone to be my backup when we are out to dinner with the wives and the "flailing Crackhead" decides to threaten our lives, if in fact, he is so arrogant as to count on a one, or two shot .410 Derringer for personal protection. If you pull out a two shot Derringer, get ready to run your Nike's off, and hope you get away fast enough. The likelihood that someone, with little real world scenario range time, is going to thwart the attack of a flailing crackhead with a slick Derringer "slug shot" to the "pelvis" is uneducated. Professionals nore those who have had formal training wouldn't be so ballistically inefficient.

Sorry to be so abrasive my friend, but you asked for it. Seek education, and then comment on real world encounters.

BTW: The Derringer may in fact not be a bad "back up" pistol to your primary. But I would still rather have something with more capacity.

Out.
 
Squid man,
Excellent question, again I appreciate the diversity. This is going to be a long one but it is better to get these out now because I am sure we will be able to refer to them later.
On the Seal issue there are many factors that go into these types of decisions on most teams, not the least of which is politics. An example would be the adoption of the M14 over the FAL. The M14 was chosen not because it was better but because it was built in the US. The Sig is a solid weapon it would not have been my first choice but who can say.
During my time in the teams I always carried a .45. I carried a match 1911 as backup on Seal Team One and I carried a Custom Detonics Scoremaster and S&W 686 while with Six. The last two weapons are in the hands of my friend, a private collector in south FL.
I believe your question was in reference to semiautomatics, thus we will save the revolver issue for another time. I do not believe bigger is necessarily better, I believe it is not always what one has, but what one does with what one has that counts.
I feel that the .357 revolver cartridge is best, but there is not a reasonably sized auto that can fire this cartridge reliably.
So lets first look at single action vs. double action. I was raised on a single action auto but with todays new double action autos I feel they are safer and as reliable in every other way. I feel much more comfortable carrying a chambered P7 than I do a single action .45. Funny thing though, the first double action autos that were released where an answer to a problem that didn’t exist. Law enforcement thought the single action autos were too dangerous and that it would require too much time in training their men to make it worth while. That's an average bean counter decision, “unqualified people making qualified decisions".
I next look for the distance the chamber is from one’s hand, this will determine how the recoil will effect the shooter. The lower the chamber in the hand the smoother the recoil. This is important for fast accurate rapid fire. The weapon with the lowest chamber is the HK P7 the next are the Glocks and then the CZs. Every other double action puts the chamber too high resulting in greater felt recoil (Sig Sauer).
Next I look at what it takes to operate the weapon as in what buttons exist and where are they placed and are they necessary. The fewer here the better for me, I like simplicity. Here the P7 and Glock win, they are simple with very few buttons and levers. The Glock however loses favor because of the ergonomics the angle of the grip is off, especially for those of us trained on 1911 types, and I do not feel as safe with the Glock chambered unless it is in a quality holster.
Now the P7 also has its glitch it is so unique in its functionality that once one is used to it, they should not carry anything else unless they can train a great deal with the new weapon.
On the safety issue, I feel the P7 wins hands down. In my time I have either seen, or heard from reliable sources that almost all other autos when dropped have fired accidentally. This is extremely relevant to those of us who often carry in a belt without a holster, or even an extremely physical individual with a shoulder holster. I have seen a chambered P7 fall two stories and not a hitch. By the way the P7 is the only handgun in the world that will continue to function even with a broken extractor.
Therefore to make a long story short if I were back in today, I would carry a Glock .40 when swimming and doing the Frogman thing but if it were all land based (VIP, HRT etc.) I would and do carry the HK P7, although mine are the PSP versions for most folk I am sure the American ones will be fine.
 
Originally posted by GPB
BTW: Mas has not lost a case yet it is my understanding.
Click to expand...

This could very well be true. I would suggest that, based on what I've read from Mas, and from what he told us at LFI-1, he is also very selective about what cases he takes. He reviews all the evidence before commiting to take a case.

Even if you are a cop or otherwise a "customer" (you've taken an LFI class from him), if he thinks your shooting was not a "good shooting", i.e. you were in the wrong, he probably will not take the case.

My comment is only meant to highlight two things:
1. It is a tremendous help to have some tactical and legal understanding of when you are "in the right" to defend yourself with a firearm... and ...
2. Mas record may be stellar, but he also chooses his cases very carefully rather than being some kind of miracle worker.
 
rdangerer,

Agreed, and very good point.

As I understand it, if you are a past student of his, the defense fee is free (probably less expenses). If you have not been to LFI, he charges you for the service.
 
Though I hope I'll never need his services, it sure is a comforting thought. I'll always be grateful to Mas for all I've learned from him, particularly (but not only) in the area of courtroom survival.

Leo
 
WRT Ayoob's help in legal defense, you are correct GPB. That's what he stated when I took training with him (kubotan & judicious use of deadly force a couple of times).

Anyone in the market for some outstanding training (and in my opinion anyone who carries concealed w/no formal training *should be*), check www.ayoob.com, he does some courses around the country as well as the main site in NH.
 
The way I look at it is this. You should pick a gun that fits your needs and actually you feel comfortable shooting. I for one stay away from all s&w auto, cause the grip doesn't appeal to me. Just not very comfortable. For me anyays comfort is an important issue, and I would think that during high stress, its even more of an issue. Berreta, browning's and cz probably have the best grip in town as far as I'm concerned. If your not LE and you wish to cc, may I suggest you stick to something with less bulk. The weight of the gun with a full magazine plus another clip does can add up after awhile. Everyone so far has mentioned really nice guns, but if you plan to go with the 1911 .45 there a lot you can do with it, and out of the box I don't think its better than the glock. So if you want bang for the buck go with the clock. hey any gun that can you can put over 100,000 rounds in it and keep on ticking.. has my vote.
 
hey CJ - gotta dis agree w/ya on the statement no reasonobly sized autos available in 357 mag - well this is kinda true, but the 357SIG either duplicates, or exceeds (ie 357 mag w4" BBL = 125gr @ 1250 to 1300, 357SIG w/4"bbl = 125gr bullet @ over 1400 fps w/some loads) the velocity of the 357 mag w/the same weight bullet - agreed the mag rounds have more lead exposed, therefore better expansion (maybe) but the ranger SXT and speer gold dot expand well too - i carry a glock 32C and a 33 as backup, and really like them - a very good, reliable , well functioning, hard hitting round in my experience.......

enjoy the forums a lot


sifu

PS - and love the 1911 and would carry one but admin has decided we cant carry single action autos so gotta roll w/the punches lol
 
OK, Damage control time....
Hiya, it's me again!
A few people addressed my idea about my ammo choice.
I inadvertantly gave the impression that I believed that Hydra Shoks would defeat body armor.
I know that they won't.
I gave the quick version of my thought processes.
I shouldn't have said body armor... I was thinking more in the line of heavy clothes and such. It's my understanding that a Glaser is made to penetrate minimally, while the Hydra Shok would "clog up" with material, in effect making it act like hard ball ammo.
I know it sounds like I'm back pedaling, but I'm not.
Again, it's only MY belief that the Hydra Shok would hit harder on an opponent wearing body armor... it's really just an assumption, and I have no concrete proof to base it on.
I'm doing the best I can with the materials at my disposal, and in NO WAY do I claim that my way is the best way.
Someone said I was asking for problems alternating ammo, as this could cause feeding problems. Perhaps you're right. But I've fired dollars and dollars worth of Hydra Shoks in my Glock without a jam, and quite a few Glasers as well. I'm as confident as I can be as far as the Hydra Shoks, and I'm also very confident in the Glasers, as they are shaped the same as hardball ammo.
In any event, my 6 month magazine storage term is up this week (and yes, I DO unload the rounds to relieve the magazine's spring) so I'll be blasting 4 magazines within the week.
If I have a problem, I'll definitely let you know.
Anyways, just in case this medium we use gives the impression that I'm insulted or anything, please don't get that idea... I'm always open to suggestions.

CJ, I'm figuring that there were too may posts to read for you to bother to address all comments herein.. but just in case you DID read mine, thanks for not tearing me a new one!
;)
I'm doing the best I can with the materials I have (I.e. my brain... sad, huh?)
If it's any condolence, I DO have an HK P7 M13 with 4 magazines! :D
I LOVE the weapon, but I'm stuck on .45s...hell, my company forbids the use of anything larger than a 9mm or .40 and I'm still carrying that .45.
(My Chief knows and says it's ok..... he's got 2 tours in Vietnam.. Navy, too! PBRs.... I'm lucky enough to have a boss that'll let a guy use what he's comfy with.. I suppose it helped that I aced the qualification... then again, there's blind folks that could do that... heh heh....

Thanks for all the info guys... gave me something to think about!
VG
 
I recal that the .357 mag while very effective at one shot kill, I recall reading in gun and amno that the .357 sig, and the .40 s.w. plus .45 p do just as good as or better than the the .357 mag? Anyone got find the raw data on this?
 
Thank you Mr. Cameleon. I appreciate your honesty and "fortitude". Likewise, I very much "respect" your ability to admit your misconceptions.

Stick with that sweet .357, and leave the Derringer to the "gamblers".
 
I'm no expert on any subject, more a jack of all trades (hence the handle.) This tends to make me opinionated, (Hence the signature.) I'm also intelligent enough to know when I'm outgunned, (so to speak.) At the risk of waxing parenthetical, (Last time, I promise.)
"The only only true wisdom is knowing your own ignorance." -Socrates.


PS. (I lied)
 
>I'd just like to sound off as a dedicaded >revolver fan. My primary concideration is >littering. I don't care who you are, if you
>carry a gun, you will eventually shoot the
>wrong person.

Excuse me? How many gun carriers out there have actually shot someone, much less "eventually shot the wrong person?"

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read on any board! The antigunners will be eating that up as a reason to be prohibit concealled carry or handgun ownership or firearm ownership if shooting the wrong person is an occupational hazard to defending yourself with a firearm. Since armed citizens are generally using their firearms to defend themselves against direct attack, as opposed to intervening in situations like the police must, citizens actually have a lower rate of shooting the wrong people than police do.

>Even if you are justifyed, you will go to jail >untill the police and courts sort everything out.
>There is no catch and release for shootings in
>any state, or country I know of.

Depends on the circumstances. If you are a home defender and the guns are legal in the jurisdiction the thing will probably go to the grand jury as a formaility. If you are a licensed carrier and a member of the community, it'll probably go the same, unless you shot someone you know, then there is the suspicion of motive. This is where a lot of problems take place, like if you shoot your daughter's abusive husband who has threatened your life on many occasions the police and DA will be suspicious as to whether you shot the guy because you felt your life was in jeopardy at that moment or because you did not like the guy and were claiming that your life was in danger in order to shoot him.

>That said, I'd hate to have to pick up brass
>after dropping a BG. I shoot someone, and I'm
>bugging out post haste. Probably before they
>hit the ground.

Flight is generally associated with guilt. Police tend to investigate shootings rather thoroughly, more so than many other crimes. If they do catch you, it will be a lot harder to convince anyone that you acted in fear of your life when you fled the scene. This type of behavior is more consistant with a criminal than a citizen legitimately defending their life. All it takes is one witness you didn't see or a number of other things, and then you will be in a much worse position having fled the scene.
 
GPB,

My orginal post concerning the derringer was meant to be understood that my main weapon was a Glock 27. I personally like the Corbon 135 gr. The derringer rarely gets carried by itself. I agree that it is a last defense type of weapon. But, the Glock isn't as easy to slip in my pocket when I running to the store. That's all. I would definitely rather have the .40 against the "flailing crack head". But, I bet a face full of .410 OO buck will ruin his day too. ;)
 
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