How do traditional hand forged katanas compare to modern high end swords?
- Thread starter Huntsman Knife Co.
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,679
I'd like to see a cheap paring knife split a .50 BMG round.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2002
- Messages
- 10,279
Some katanas could cut through seven stacked bodies in one blow, don't know what that means except it's pretty amazing. I own 2 katanas a tachi and a Yari. One of the katanas is still sharp after at least 65 years since it's last sharpening and the yari is still sharp after over 150 years. What does this mean? I don't know, but it's pretty cool.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,679
To say "NOTHING" is a hyperbole, it proves something in absence of other tests. It proves that a traditional Katana is at least tough enough not to shatter at first contact with a .50 BMG round, yet at the same time hard enough to split it. The bullet test is a bit like an extreme (and unmeasured) form of Charpy Test.
[youtube]a_aOlh6dSA8[/youtube]
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2004
- Messages
- 23,944
I would too, but it's not nearly as "cool" as seeing a katana doing it, so nobody's probably filmed it. But I have seen bullets split by knives on Discovery/History channel, and the blades seemed to hold up just fine.
The point we're making here is that it's a completely irrelevant and idiotic test.
Idiotic: Lead is soft. Very soft. The copper jacket of a bullet is pretty soft as well. Bragging that a blade can slice a fired bullet is like bragging that you can cut a stick of butter in half (yes, even cold butter). The .50BMG round has a tungsten core, which is extremely hard and will destroy any blade (not every shot in that video hits the blade directly on, meaning that only lead hit the blade).
Irrelevant: How many samurai in history had to chop a fired .50BMG round out of the air? Or chop a cinder block, or any other test of that nature? The katana is meant to cut flesh and bone, and executing the proper cut is a technique learned with a whole lot of practice. Sword-to-sword contact, as well as contact with iron armor, .50BMG rounds, or anything but flesh and bone (or suitable analogues) was and always will be avoided.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,679
Well, "not really hard" is not exactly a scientific measurement either.
Of course it's mostly entertainment. I don't think anybody would sacrifice his 5-figure Katana to a simple and boring Charpy test. If you want to destroy something as expensive as a Katana, you want to do it in style.
Even a fully measured and controlled scientific test done to 1 material is meaningless. The test is only meaningful when compared with results from other materials. If you want a scientific ballpark figure, you can take several materials with known HRC and Charpy values, shape them into Katanas, and shoot them with M2 firing .50 BMG. You can measure how many bullets the other Katana-like objects take before failure. Based on that number you can get a good sense on how hard and how tough a Katana is.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,679
I have to disagree. As long as a test is consistent, repeatable and has other materials to compare against, it has value. Yield, Tensile, and Elongation test are standard for the steel industry regardless of application.
A relevant test for a Katana is how many bodies it can cut through with one hack. However, that ability depends on how hard and tough the steel is (assuming edge geometry is constant). Hardness and toughness can be measured scientifically. We can derive the numbers by Rockwell and Charpy test (highly accurate but boring) or by shooting with .50 BMG (less accurate but cool).
It's like converting the measurement from one unit of measure to another. Rockwell, Brinell, and Vickers are different methods of measuring hardness, but for the most part you can derive the number of one from the other.
By the way, .50 BMG does not always have tungsten core, just like 9mm Parabellum does not always have full jacket. There are many, many types of .50 BMG round. Only certain types of armor piercing round have tungsten core.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2004
- Messages
- 23,944
It looks a lot broader than a katana should be.
It's hard to see the ammo, but it appears to be just regular ball ammo (no paint on tip), so I guess there's probably no tungsten involved. It's an old video, discussed here before, and I had a memory of somebody saying that the ammo was tungsten cored.
It's hard to see the ammo, but it appears to be just regular ball ammo (no paint on tip), so I guess there's probably no tungsten involved. It's an old video, discussed here before, and I had a memory of somebody saying that the ammo was tungsten cored.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,679
This is not the most precise or accurate test available. I never claim that it's a good test, but it's not "nothing". A destructive test is valuable, especially since it's the only one we got.
If people pretend this experiment doesn't exist, then what's the best description can we give about the quality of a traditional Katana? At most we'll just say it's "pretty tough", or "really hard". Saying "it can withstand 7 shots of .50 BMG" is not really precise, but it sure is more precise than "pretty tough" and "really hard".
If somebody is rich enough to surrender his Katana so we can make dogbones out of it and conduct Yield, Tensile, Elongation, Charpy, and all the other industry standard tests, then obviously I'll take these over the shooting test.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2005
- Messages
- 10,038
Depends on what you consider a test? Which can defeat the other - a no brainer, but the resilience of the sword - excellent.
Did you see the slo-mos' of the bullets being sliced, cut, deflected until it chipped the same spot away and finally broke it? It was so fast I couldn't count them.
The Browning .50 cal machine gun is a monster. I've fired one before, as others here probably have when in the Military. They only fire a 655 grain slug, 3,045 - 3,050 ft per second and hit with around 13,000+ foot pounds of energy. (a bit lower numbers with increased bullet weight.)
Not too shabby of a showing for that katana!
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 19,876
Depends on what you consider a test? Which can defeat the other - a no brainer, but the resilience of the sword - excellent.
Did you see the slo-mos' of the bullets being sliced, cut, deflected until it chipped the same spot away and finally broke it? It was so fast I couldn't count them.
The Browning .50 cal machine gun is a monster. I've fired one before, as others here probably have when in the Military. They only fire a 655 grain slug, 3,045 - 3,050 ft per second and hit with around 13,000+ foot pounds of energy. (a bit lower numbers with increased bullet weight.)
Not too shabby of a showing for that katana!
It is only science if it can be recreated and repeatedly tested on this and other materials, otherwise any conclusion, is just idle speculation.
n2s
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,707
The bullet demonstration sure looks cool. :thumbup: But I'm not sure that it prooves much, other than lead is way softer than tempered steel.
I seem to recall that SOG used to advertise and show how their knives also stood up against bullets, and I belive that those knives were made of AUS-6 or AUS-8. ....Not exactly the best super steel around, yet they too held up just fine.
I seem to recall that SOG used to advertise and show how their knives also stood up against bullets, and I belive that those knives were made of AUS-6 or AUS-8. ....Not exactly the best super steel around, yet they too held up just fine.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2010
- Messages
- 1,379
there are two traditional ways to look at the sharpness and strength of a sword.
the first one is to consider how it performed in battle. a knowledgeable swordsman using a downward diagonal slash could cut through a body from shoulder to opposite hip.
the second is called kabutowari, or helmet splitting. It is exactly what it sounds like.
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html
there are very few modern swords that i believe could be held to wither of the aforementioned standards.
the first one is to consider how it performed in battle. a knowledgeable swordsman using a downward diagonal slash could cut through a body from shoulder to opposite hip.
the second is called kabutowari, or helmet splitting. It is exactly what it sounds like.
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html
there are very few modern swords that i believe could be held to wither of the aforementioned standards.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,707
I think that the ability to cut a human in half has more to do with the size and geometry of the blade being used. Of course the strength and edge holding ability of the steel is also a factor, if you expect to be able to do it repeatedly without damage to the sword.
I think for a fair comparison you would need to have someone from say, the bussekin family, make a sword or waki in the exact size and dimentions of a classic japanese blade, but using their own modern stel and heat treat.
Then test and compare for edge retension as well as overall strength and toughness.
That would be very interesting to me, ...but like others have said "who would be willing to donate their ancient near priceless sword for a destruction test?"
I think for a fair comparison you would need to have someone from say, the bussekin family, make a sword or waki in the exact size and dimentions of a classic japanese blade, but using their own modern stel and heat treat.
Then test and compare for edge retension as well as overall strength and toughness.
That would be very interesting to me,
...but like others have said "who would be willing to donate their ancient near priceless sword for a destruction test?"
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2004
- Messages
- 23,944
I'd forgotten about that one.
That takes me back. Knife is an SOG Tigershark, SK5 (carbon, not stainless) steel.
- Joined
- May 14, 2010
- Messages
- 62
It doesn't even do that.
DennisStrickland
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2009
- Messages
- 5,040
all the current info i have studied on recent swords gives the nod to the best made current production. a year or so back one of our sword cutting xperts mentioned that japanese masters were purchasing american swords since they could'nt have their american students surpassing the teacher in cutting tests. one mentioned the katanas being made from an american co. using the bainite process. now before we get into a big fight we have a true cutting xpert in the sword section. his name is Steven Garrson & is still practicising conventional japanese cutting procedures. if he chimes in i believe we will have the gospel on this subject. garrson has been immersed in this practice for many years & ocassionally pops in other areas. my earlier research in this area impressed me as to his fantastic expertise in this area.
dennis
dennis
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2005
- Messages
- 10,038
Agreed! This isn't "pure" science but maybe it is as I'm pretty certain that at point blank rnage the .50 cal machine gun is going to lay the best blade to waste every time. I suppose hand forged high end katanas are to pricey to blow up 1000 times in a row though.