Bigfattyt
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 19,195
Now, that, my good man is a "generalization" and not correct. Katanas are, in fact designed to chop something. Specifically People.
In fact, that is the purpose of them. Which is readily apparent by looking at the design. They generally have a curve along the entire edge, which helps to maximize the slashing and cutting power. In fact, for a light sword, they have impressive "chopping" power. Traditional blades were often tested on cadavers, using different angle cuts. From shoulder to hip, across the middle, across the mid section etc.
Now, being that I know "very little" about the subject, I don't off hand remember the traditional Japanese phrase for these specific cuts. And I am too lazy to look them up.
But a very interesting article I read talked about the original method of using live targets in the form of criminals, before they had to move to cadavers.
Blades were rated by how many bodies they could cut through in a single stroke. 5 body blades (tested to cut through 5 human bodies, bones and all) sound pretty damned impressive, and indicate that Katanas are, in fact "designed to chop" something, as opposed to "nothing".
Now, if you wanted to make a sweeping, overly broad generalization about a sword being "not being designed to chop anything" you might want to reserve that statement for a sword design, that is, in fact, designed to chop nothing. Oh, I don't know, like a small sword, which has no edge what so ever (usually with a cruicform or sometimes triangular cross section) with no sharpened edge at all. They are used as a thrusting weapon. With no ability to cut because they are square with no edge, and only a pointy tip.
Now, the Katana, as stated earlier, is actually capable of very impressive chopping. In part, this is due to the length of the handle, in relation to the blade. The longer handle allows for a two handed grip. The hands are spaced far enough apart to allow the user to use a push/pull technique that actually accelerates the blade like a pivot action (which is actually a concept that lead to wide spread use of the side handled police baton with the little handle on the side. They are derived from the tonfa, an Okinawan kobudō weapon. One of the strong points of the side handled baton is that it allows you to use a push/pull action on the two different grip points allowing more acceleration and power in the strike when compared to a baton without the little protruding handle).
To be fair on the opinions on Katanas and "making generalizations about something you know very little about", to assume that because I have never received training in cutting or fighting with one, must mean that I just jumped into this conversation after watching a few Samurai movies, and Kill Bill I and II would be an incorrect assumption.
The subject has interested me for about 20 years now. I am not a super well versed in all the terminology. But have spent some time reading on the subject of construction methods, and the history of the swords, including, as I stated in my one of my earlier posts, and interesting bit of info, that after one of the Chinease invasions there was a redesign of the katana to make it more robust after too many failures in combat (against what the Japanese considered the vastly "inferior" Chinese weapons).
If you re read one of my earlier posts, I did comment that the handle treatment, when done right and fitted by some one that knows what they are doing, is strong enough I would not be concerned about using it hard.
One of the fine gentlemen on this forum who is trained in cutting (I believe for more than a decade), and competes in tameshigiri competitions posts very informative threads on this very topic has stated in past posts that he replaces the standard bamboo pin with a sturdier denser bamboo knitting needle on his swords, and that it is an area he would not just trust from any manufacturer. (
Kohai999 - STeven Garsson) He also posted about broken handles, and even destroying (or at least bending and rendering unsafe) his own higher quality production swords regularly from cutting practice.
Again, I have watched many destruction video's of production Katanas from different manufacturers (done by independent reviewers). I have also seen people post photo's of their their broken handles, bent, chipped and ruined blades and injuries.
Most importantly, the original poster asked:
I have and use my own Infi. I have used it hard and been very impressed with the toughness, impact resistance and edge retention in my very own knives. I have seen years and years of pics and torture test video's of these very knives and swords (the ones the original poster specifically asked about). I have also watched destruction video's to failure of Infi. I am not an expert in destruction testing of any steel, especially not Infi, because I will never, ever, have a need to use a 6 lb steel sledge hammer on the spine of my knife to cut through steel with it. Nor will I ever put it in a vice and hit it sideways with the sledgehammer for 20 minutes just to see that it can take it. I will just keep using mine as cutting and chopping instruments.
again the original question was:
Most importantly, the original poster asked:
My point with the bamboo handle pin, and handle construction was not meant as a knock against the Katana in general. The OP's question was specifically about the comparison between the construction, the steel, cutting ability, and apparently, what the results would be if you took a traditional Katana and bashed it against an AK47 in Infi steel.
The Busse AK47 handle is a full/exposed tang with no taper. The handle material on the standard versions is going to be either canvas micarta or G10 depending on which version you bought (the Busse custom shop has also put out variations using Rams horn, wood, mammoth tooth etc). Now, I am no expert in the shock resistance or torsional strength of the natural wood used in the traditional Katana (The wood core of the handle is traditionally made of honoki wood, which I have been told is very similar to tulip poplar.......just to be clear, I cut and pasted this from some one who knows more than me).
I do know that G10 and Micarta have very good characteristics for resisting impact, and torsional stress. The G11 (similar to G10 but just more fire/heat resistant) that I used on one knife I made is actually rated at 65,000 lbs per square inch of force before failing. This material is attached to the handle by multiple flared stainless steel tubing. Very strong attachment. From an abuse standpoint, I will take Infi and micarta handles over a traditional wood handle held on with a single bamboo pin (even a nicer, denser piece of bamboo made from a traditional bamboo knitting needle). The Busse's ship with a very thick robust edge. It is not optimized for laser like slicing. It is designed at being indestructible. They do have a custom AK version called a "Dragon's Fang" which, so far, I have only seen two of. They are 5/16 thick Infi, and really sharpened pry bars that are longer in the handle and the blade than the standard AK. Although I have never been a fan of finger grooves on most knife designs, let alone on a sword.
I kind of thing that was somewhat the intent in the original OP's question.
It is, kind of like asking which would do "better" if you crashed them into each other a Hummer or a classic Ferrari. Different builds, value, and created for completely different purposes.
Busse's swords really are designed so you can run around and chop trees, and coconuts, and cinder blocks and steel doors and car hoods and (enter object you want to destroy here), and I have seen people do all of these things with them (including very dangerous looking bend tests ........... David Brown, and Tyrkron Lawson, I am talking to both of you. At least David had the sense to have shoes on......don't think I didn't notice your sandals in some of those pics Tyrkon).
I do know that as delivered, the standard AK's will be easily out cut by traditional design katanas (whether they use super traditional forged/folded method with a composite blade of different levels of hardness and steel composition, or a traditionally designed katana using modern steel). The geometry is so much better on the traditional katana. Now if you were talking about a modern steel, with a traditional profile, with both the traditionally made and modern made super steel version having the identical specs for geometry, that the modern steels will likely out perform the traditional steel (Blasphemy I know!), but smarter people than me have stated for their cutting swords they prefer modern steel, stock removal, to even modern steel forged because the steel performs better in that configuration. (ie the benefits of using a modern super steel are diminished by then forging, folding it, and re heating it , and folding, and reheating and repeating many times)
You will also notice that I did not address the many other "custom/modern" makers swords using modern super steels. Although I have seen them mentioned in posts (including this one), and other steels like L6 (that some really like). I have not used them. I have held some, and even swung one, if that makes you happy.
As a side note, I would love to train with, and own some nice traditional style Katanas. My home town, of a whopping 20,000 people, oddly enough does not have a place that offers such training.
The last place I lived where I checked into it (my friend was training). He told me that at his school, you had to study the basics of the martial art for 3-4 years before the instructor would even let you touch a Boken and start training with that. My friend trained with the boken on the sly, with another school on the side.
I have almost purchased a katana many times, and have always decided against it. For one reason, I know I would be forced to use it, and I would not have the training. I have used some of my big choppers (knives) for cutting (fun stuff like heavy duty shipping tubes, they make a great noise when you cut them), green saplings etc. I just think if I had a practical Katana I would eventually have to try it out.
I do throw hawks, and axes, (and yes......I have to admit I have been throwing knives my whole life......kind of ninja-ish). So I think I would probably use a Katana, and eventually hurt my self.
Even as I write this, I am wearing three pieces of Infi, on a baldric/sheath combo I made........sitting on my ninja throne, surveying my fortress of solitude.
:thumbup: (because we all know a Ninja who uses emoticons is a true ninja!)I just had a realization. I believe this thread is the first time in my bladeforum experience I have been called out on a thread, and told I am a stupid-know-nothing...........Kind of a rush.........It is also the most time I have ever spent responding to another posters disdain for me! Now I know what all the mall ninja's and trollers feel like when some one calls them a Dumb@$%!
:thumbup:I think you meant helicopters, not helocoptors. Unless you were specifically referring to the particularly evil "Hello-Kitty-Coptors" which are indeed inventions of complete devilry! Who ever thought it would be a good idea to let those insidious pink kitties design and build their own attack "helocoptors" has unstopped the floodgates of hell with that one! Of course everyone knows that Helicopters are held aloft with nothing but witchcraft and the devils power!!!!! I know this because I have two good friends, both certified instructors. Both of which have been involved in Chopper crashes. One of which, sadly, died in his last crash.
I tried to tell them that no good would ever come of those devil powered contraptions!
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