Let's talk civil unrest/war weapons.

[Kenneth F Huls]

That's why in my hypothetical, the combatants were direct clones of each other with the exact same skills, strengths and weaknesses.

If there is a fight between similarly skilled opponents and one has a stick/club and the other has a nice thin sharp sword, the sword guy is going to easily win 99% of the time imo. Stick guy is going to get his hand chopped off.

Sorry, I got the impression from some of your replies that this was semi-serious, and naturally the clone type hypo is not. Cannot/never happen/s.

My bad. All meant in good spirit.

BTW, you might be surprised how effective a stick is against a sword. Even with “clones.” Just sayin’.

Have fun.

 

[Mecha]

Sorry, I got the impression from some of your replies that this was semi-serious, and naturally the clone type hypo is not. Cannot/never happen/s.

My bad. All meant in good spirit.

BTW, you might be surprised how effective a stick is against a sword. Even with “clones.” Just sayin’.

Have fun.

Oh I'm semi-serious, all right. The clone hypothetical is just to think about it as weapon-vs-weapon rather than mano a mano, since the subject is the weapons themselves, otherwise it always devolves into just, "You can't compare because two people aren't the same."

Sticks are great and very effective, but I don't think a typical stick wielder will defeat a sword wielder unless you're talking about something like a waxwood staff.

 

[not2sharp]

Oh I'm semi-serious, all right. The clone hypothetical is just to think about it as weapon-vs-weapon rather than mano a mano, since the subject is the weapons themselves, otherwise it always devolves into just, "You can't compare because two people aren't the same."

Sticks are great and very effective, but I don't think a typical stick wielder will defeat a sword wielder unless you're talking about something like a waxwood staff.

You guys are mistaken if you think we are going to be dueling in the streets. If knives get used, they will come as an unexpected stab in the dark. Forget the martial arts exercises and start thinking war. You are not going to be given an opportunity to dance.

n2s

 

[Kenneth F Huls]

You guys are mistaken if you think we are going to be dueling in the streets. If knives get used, they will come as an unexpected stab in the dark. Forget the martial arts exercises and start thinking war. You are not going to be given an opportunity to dance.

n2s

I respect your point. That said,
I think the OP’s hypothetical was ammo ran out. If I recall correctly. Should/when that occurs, I disagree. War can well be melee. Or man on man. A “few” historical examples. I think it good to be well equipped and trained for about anything. Fun and satisfying as well.

 

[Kenneth F Huls]

Oh I'm semi-serious, all right. The clone hypothetical is just to think about it as weapon-vs-weapon rather than mano a mano, since the subject is the weapons themselves, otherwise it always devolves into just, "You can't compare because two people aren't the same."

Sticks are great and very effective, but I don't think a typical stick wielder will defeat a sword wielder unless you're talking about something like a waxwood staff.

Ok, I get it, and glad you don’t seem to have taken offense as none was intended. I appreciate the spirit of the discussion.
And yes, staff - whether a jo, bo, or traditional European quarter staff (I prefer weapons grade hickory for all) is very much what I was thinking. I don’t know what experience and training you have with a good sword. I only have a few years of training. Just scratched the surface despite those years. Proper technique and cutting strokes are not intuitive in my experience and opinion. I have the same experience, well, a bit more, with staffs and sticks. I found technique much more intuitive and readily learned. And I am not talking about lengthy kata here. Just proper technique and stroke.
Opinions will vary. Results may differ.

Have fun.

 

[Kenneth F Huls]

You guys are mistaken if you think we are going to be dueling in the streets. If knives get used, they will come as an unexpected stab in the dark. Forget the martial arts exercises and start thinking war. You are not going to be given an opportunity to dance.

n2s

A final reply. Definitely not talking about “dancing.” Sword work is short and brutal. Movies notwithstanding. Knife work = same.

 

[Mecha]

Ok, I get it, and glad you don’t seem to have taken offense as none was intended. I appreciate the spirit of the discussion.
And yes, staff - whether a jo, bo, or traditional European quarter staff (I prefer weapons grade hickory for all) is very much what I was thinking. I don’t know what experience and training you have with a good sword. I only have a few years of training. Just scratched the surface despite those years. Proper technique and cutting strokes are not intuitive in my experience and opinion. I have the same experience, well, a bit more, with staffs and sticks. I found technique much more intuitive and readily learned. And I am not talking about lengthy kata here. Just proper technique and stroke.
Opinions will vary. Results may differ.

Have fun.

Yes, a staff, now that's a pretty devastating thing to swing around. I think of a stick as a one-hander, and a staff as along two-hander.

What you're saying about proper cutting strokes not being intuitive is part of my philosophy for making swords and long blades. What I say is, that nowadays in the age of the gun, the chances that someone using a sword in self-defense is very skilled with the sword as a weapon are low, and furthermore, sword techniques are based on sword fighting. It doesn't take subtle parries and oblique cuts and thrusts and doing flips like a ninja to take down an attacker who's wearing a T-shirt and jeans, swinging around a baseball bat or knife. What today's sword user is likely to employ are the natural cuts: machete-like swings down and across. Essentially, they are likely to treat the sword like it is a stick.

With that in mind, I have tried to shape my personal blade design to take advantage of this. Instead of shaping a blade around nuanced swordsmanship, instead they are designed to maximize the potential of normal, natural "long implement" strikes. Was I successful? I'd say at least somewhat, and of course higher-level sword techniques are fine too. In the case of using one of my swords like a stick, it is going to be much more devastating than a stick if used the same way. Using a stick is intuitive, and replacing that stick with the blade is going to up the power level to 9000+. Many sticks that will get sheared in half or broken by the blade, since it is titanium alloy and not going to break or take any sort of damage that hinders its use.

The other aspect is that when I say "good sword" most of the time that means thin, very sharp, and importantly, a decent handguard. Stick guy isn't going to have a handguard and that is a huge disadvantage. In the case of the staff, now sword guy has to be careful because the staff can put you out with a big swing or jab. If someone isn't skilled with a staff, any more than sword guy is with his sword, then if staff guy misses and sword guy gets in range, staff guy is fooked.

The thing I would be wary of, if I was using a sword, would be the guy with a club-like stick, like a shillelagh.

Here is a good example of my sword design:

It's like a really fancy curved stick. The blade is about 26" and oal is something like 33". The handguard is around 6" long.

 

[Kenneth F Huls]

Yes, a staff, now that's a pretty devastating thing to swing around. I think of a stick as a one-hander, and a staff as along two-hander.

What you're saying about proper cutting strokes not being intuitive is part of my philosophy for making swords and long blades. What I say is, that nowadays in the age of the gun, the chances that someone using a sword in self-defense is very skilled with the sword as a weapon are low, and furthermore, sword techniques are based on sword fighting. It doesn't take subtle parries and oblique cuts and thrusts and doing flips like a ninja to take down an attacker who's wearing a T-shirt and jeans, swinging around a baseball bat or knife. What today's sword user is likely to employ are the natural cuts: machete-like swings down and across. Essentially, they are likely to treat the sword like it is a stick.

With that in mind, I have tried to shape my personal blade design to take advantage of this. Instead of shaping a blade around nuanced swordsmanship, instead they are designed to maximize the potential of normal, natural "long implement" strikes. Was I successful? I'd say at least somewhat, and of course higher-level sword techniques are fine too. In the case of using one of my swords like a stick, it is going to be much more devastating than a stick if used the same way. Using a stick is intuitive, and replacing that stick with the blade is going to up the power level to 9000+. Many sticks that will get sheared in half or broken by the blade, since it is titanium alloy and not going to break or take any sort of damage that hinders its use.

The other aspect is that when I say "good sword" most of the time that means thin, very sharp, and importantly, a decent handguard. Stick guy isn't going to have a handguard and that is a huge disadvantage. In the case of the staff, now sword guy has to be careful because the staff can put you out with a big swing or jab. If someone isn't skilled with a staff, any more than sword guy is with his sword, then if staff guy misses and sword guy gets in range, staff guy is fooked.

The thing I would be wary of, if I was using a sword, would be the guy with a club-like stick, like a shillelagh.

Here is a good example of my sword design:

It's like a really fancy curved stick. The blade is about 26" and oal is something like 33". The handguard is around 6" long.

Thank you for the thought and explanation of your design philosophy.
I have not contemplated design and use of the sword with this in mind and have to give it some thought before commenting further.

Regardless, as I said in another thread, I wish I could handle your work for feel.

Really cool stuff!

 

[Mecha]

Thank you for the thought and explanation of your design philosophy.
I have not contemplated design and use of the sword with this in mind and have to give it some thought before commenting further.

Regardless, as I said in another thread, I wish I could handle your work for feel.

Really cool stuff!

Thanks. :] It really is stick-like, being stiff yet flexible and springy, and fairly light-weight. It can be used with full, unchecked speed and power.

Since making that jian recently, there have been conversations about the jian, which takes great skill and practice to master. There is a very old saying in China, that persists to this day, regarding weapons types vs what it takes to realize their basic potential, and of course it's also allegorical:

Three days staff
Hundred days dao
Thousand days spear
Ten thousand days jian

In the same way that the crossbow was "better" than the longbow because it took way less time to master and thus meant more effective soldiers quicker and easier, the dao displaced the jian because it simply took less time and training to wield effectively. However the jian holds within it more potential if it's developed in the armsman.

What I aim to do is make a sword that bridges or spans what the Chinese saying is describing.

 

[Houlahound]

I just wish I read this thread a year ago and I would have thrown everything I had at stocks & shares in ammo factories I would have owned most of the world's ammo and be King of the universe.

Having failed that.... smatchet.

 

[Gh0zt36]

I respect your point. That said,
I think the OP’s hypothetical was ammo ran out. If I recall correctly. Should/when that occurs, I disagree. War can well be melee. Or man on man. A “few” historical examples. I think it good to be well equipped and trained for about anything. Fun and satisfying as well.

exactly , the scenario I propose there is an event horizon due to this un named event the supply chain breaks down . Civil unrest leads to open civil conflict . People burn up the few thousand rounds of 5.56 ,7.62nato what have you over the course of 6 or so months .

Due to this conflict the supply chain remain broken . Eventually ammo runs out . A now blade shy war weary populace begins to wind down the conflict with limited skirmishes.

People have no run out of their stores of food as well . Survival mode kicks in , local warlords claim enclaves as their own and primitive settlements in more rural areas where resources are take form . And eventually different klans clash on the now daily hunt for resources. . Small skirmishes of 5 or less per side breakout in this effort to hunt , scavenge .

These would be for the most part CQB skirmishes of mostly unskilled participants. \\

This would be the specific scenario I would be looking for the ideal weapon . As unskilled as folks would be picking up long endged weapons would be would probably stab and slash in a adrenaline fueled frenzy . So I imagine this weapon wouldnt be a claymore . There would be crude adaptive armor made from whatever could be scavenged from the landscape , thick leather guards . So it would have to be have decent thrusting capabilities and slashing abilities . Fairly tough as unskilled combatants would probably be hitting various objects in the dynamic landscape around them .

And preferably under 1000-1200

 

[Gh0zt36]

I just wish I read this thread a year ago and I would have thrown everything I had at stocks & shares in ammo factories I would have owned most of the world's ammo and be King of the universe.

Having failed that.... smatchet.

As long as it wasnt remington lol

 

[Houlahound]

DP

 

[Houlahound]

DP

 

[Houlahound]

DP

 

[scarysamcary]

exactly , the scenario I propose there is an event horizon due to this un named event the supply chain breaks down . Civil unrest leads to open civil conflict . People burn up the few thousand rounds of 5.56 ,7.62nato what have you over the course of 6 or so months .

Due to this conflict the supply chain remain broken . Eventually ammo runs out . A now blade shy war weary populace begins to wind down the conflict with limited skirmishes.

People have no run out of their stores of food as well . Survival mode kicks in , local warlords claim enclaves as their own and primitive settlements in more rural areas where resources are take form . And eventually different klans clash on the now daily hunt for resources. . Small skirmishes of 5 or less per side breakout in this effort to hunt , scavenge .

These would be for the most part CQB skirmishes of mostly unskilled participants. \\

This would be the specific scenario I would be looking for the ideal weapon . As unskilled as folks would be picking up long endged weapons would be would probably stab and slash in a adrenaline fueled frenzy . So I imagine this weapon wouldnt be a claymore . There would be crude adaptive armor made from whatever could be scavenged from the landscape , thick leather guards . So it would have to be have decent thrusting capabilities and slashing abilities . Fairly tough as unskilled combatants would probably be hitting various objects in the dynamic landscape around them .

And preferably under 1000-1200

Skirmishes of this style existed throughout history. You don't seem to have an interest in spears as a primary weapon, so I would say focus on swords that function well with a shield. I know you have stated you are interested in a Wakizashi, but having done plenty of mixed weapon sparring in groups I just can't recommend them for this style skirmish unless you know your skills eclipse your opponents and in that case the question becomes "What is the funnest sword to kill with?". Shields like the buckler or Indian Dhal can be incredibly lightweight and easy to carry on long trips away from home/camp and provide an incredible edge in multi-combatant skirmishes.

A great place to find swords of a wide variety is Kultofathena. They easily have a thousand swords in your price range.

 

[Houlahound]

exactly , the scenario I propose there is an event horizon due to this un named event the supply chain breaks down . Civil unrest leads to open civil conflict . People burn up the few thousand rounds of 5.56 ,7.62nato what have you over the course of 6 or so months .

Due to this conflict the supply chain remain broken . Eventually ammo runs out . A now blade shy war weary populace begins to wind down the conflict with limited skirmishes.

People have no run out of their stores of food as well . Survival mode kicks in , local warlords claim enclaves as their own and primitive settlements in more rural areas where resources are take form . And eventually different klans clash on the now daily hunt for resources. . Small skirmishes of 5 or less per side breakout in this effort to hunt , scavenge .

These would be for the most part CQB skirmishes of mostly unskilled participants. \\

This would be the specific scenario I would be looking for the ideal weapon . As unskilled as folks would be picking up long endged weapons would be would probably stab and slash in a adrenaline fueled frenzy . So I imagine this weapon wouldnt be a claymore . There would be crude adaptive armor made from whatever could be scavenged from the landscape , thick leather guards . So it would have to be have decent thrusting capabilities and slashing abilities . Fairly tough as unskilled combatants would probably be hitting various objects in the dynamic landscape around them .

And preferably under 1000-1200

I used to think this scenario was likely, so do many prepper types. Now that I am older and started delving into my own ethnic history I no longer believe your scenario is likely apart from a short term panic reaction.

My grandparents lived thru scenarios way worse than you have described and the exact opposite happened, in fact most of history refutes your scenario.

Folks instead tend to become more moral, more generous and more humane than they currently are now. Religion and tradition is the glue that circumvents the disaster you describe.

But still the answers is smatchet just for good measure.

 

[Gh0zt36]

You don't seem to have an interest in spears as a primary weapon,

I certainly would consider a spear if that was your recommendation . This is why I began this thread . To listen to everybodies suggestion . I'm 6'1 as well so a spear wouldn't be too big for me to wield

A great place to find swords of a wide variety is Kultofathena. They easily have a thousand swords in your price range.

That my fren is the problem , literally thousands of swords of all geolocational origin , size , shape . And The tool I am looking for is for a very specific scenario .

 

[scarysamcary]

That is not to say that personal preference does not play a huge part in the equation. I have plenty of swords and spears of greater potential that I have trained with, but I would still find myself more comfortable with an Iklwa.

 

[Gh0zt36]

I used to think this scenario was likely, so do many prepper types. Now that I am older and started delving into my own ethnic history I no longer believe your scenario is likely apart from a short term panic reaction.

My grandparents lived thru scenarios way worse than you have described and the exact opposite happened, in fact most of history refutes your scenario.

Folks instead tend to become more moral, more generous and more humane than they currently are now. Religion and tradition is the glue that circumvents the disaster you describe.

But still the answers is smatchet just for good measure.

Yea , I don't know . I couldnt have ever imagined seriously considering it myself . The internet and social media more importantly has tactically divided this country in a way not possible before using weaponized connections and targeted marketing and ads to make money . Netflix of all places just dropped a documentary on it recently called " The Social Dilema " About how google facebook and twitter are manipulating us into civil war .

So I dont think these specific dynamics of this current paradigm have ever been seen in history prior to this time period. And people are virulently polarized and you can see the pot simmering . So now ? I'm not so convinced we won't see an instance of the event horizon I outlined. And I'd rather be ready for it than not and hope it doesnt happen .

To your suggestion , you dont think a smatchet is too small ? My train of thought is if I was facing a small patrol sized squad Id want something a little longer to keep them at bay . Smatchet distance they have the option to start grappling to disarm you . And you cant get much of a swing on multiple tangos at that range.