OT: Gun guys...can't afford, don't need, won't be able to hunt with..

:) Great! The more the merrier! No...at *our* house. Specifically out into the back fields... Looking forward to seeing and hearing all.
 
Thank you all for your help, experience, insights and suggestions.

I appreciate them.
 
Nasty-
I oiled, and lightly steel wooled any friction area that might hang up the mag follower. ONe fixed 20 wasn't much good. The other worked almost all the time. Almost. I finally took it off after it disapointed me one or two times too often. We used to go through cases of ammo...those wonderful tuna cans....


I wonder if my Russian will take a Chinese fixed 20? Probably. They make a big deal out of the Russians, but I've avoided them until now. Yes, better looking metal, but one Smith told me many of the Russians were actually softer than the Chinese. I imagine hardening on the Chinese was 'hardly' standardized, though.

Anyway, paying premium price for a SKS defeats the purpose. But my friend will sell his Russian for a good price, and I'll own an SKS again. Yippee?

Here's two stories from the Gun store:
Guy buys a cheap Norinco AK. Comes back two weeks later and buys the next step up- I don't remember what that is, now, you remember the Eastern Europe models, the Egyptian, blaa blaa blaa. With this type of weapon, much is made of having a 'milled' forged reciever. Yet for what the weapon does, chuck bullets downrange, the extra time and weight of the reciever being forged hardly matters. I'd like to see someone prove the older recievers more accurate than the stamped ones every nation who used the AK finally turned to. (and Hell, EVEN I like the old milled and forged...go figure- you can't help but like 'stronger stuff' with more man hours and finishing) Anyway, this guy would come into the store once a month and buy a new AK. He kept buying up until he got the best availble at that time- a little under a 1000 bucks.

He must have had 2500 to 3000 in AK's by that time. And at the end of his journey- did his super AK really shoot better than his cheap one? Well, I know there are high quality recievers out there today, and some of the more expensive AK's the owners say are more accurate. If you want to spend a 1000 bucks on an AK, I'd buy a AR or M1A or FNFAL,though.


I have a NMH 90 that 15 years ago might do 2" at a 100 yards with iron sights. (there's a story to this rifle- it went away and then came back to me- Nasty- I can't get rid of some of these AK's and SKS's- they return like Salmon.) I paid 190 bucks new for that stamped aborted stock designed ugly duckling, yet it chucked bullets like all in the Clan do- admirably.

Another AK buyer: at some point in the 90's, attempts were made to legitimize the weapon by adding sporting features to it- we know about the stock, and the derivative Hunter models, but there was also a long heavy barreled model. They even had them in 308 and 223 if you recall. Anway, Guy comes into the shop and wants to hunt Elk in Colorado with a plus 20" barreled AK in the Soviet Short round. Please don't do this, I tell him. No go; he's convinced the extra barrel length will turn the round into a Beast Killer. I sell him the rifle with regret. I figure the extra length will do well when a Colorado local wraps the rifle around his neck.

There are two AK varients I've always wondered about but have no personal experience with- the Valmet and the Galil. Both have Cults built around them.

The AK with it's rotary bolt recoils better than the SKS. It really is a nice feeling shooter. But the good ole SKS will always have a place in my ...er...heart? and cannot be said to recoil hard, just different.

If you or Spectre know of any way to insure a fixed 20 to work, let me know. Certainly, the 20 was the only conversion that looked promising to me, but as I said, it failed for me and many others in the High Desert in Ca.

One more anecdote- I load for the 35 Whelen. I pick the 250 Speer as best all around choice. Sierra advertises the 225 gr as being the best choice for longer range shots. Except if you look at the BC's for both bullets, the 250 retains more energy and actually flies flatter at the longer ranges the 225 is advertised for. But it makes no difference. Gun writers take up the 225 as THE long range choice. Guy comes into the gunstore, and buys a box of 225 Sierra's- why? "Long range," He says. "Then you should try the 250 Speer," I say, it will actually outperform the smaller bullet." He looks at me with contempt. I'm just a gun store clerk, sweep a floor or something, buddy, and get out of our way. He looks to his friend, obviously the Gun Guru, and the guy shakes his head no: I don't know what I'm talking about.

My hero, Ken Waters, writes the 35 whelen in Pet Loads. What does he do? 225 Sierra for long range, he says.

Anyway, Guns are neat. I've learned and enjoyed the hobby-sport-way of life- political position for many years now. No matter what I know, other's may have different experiences, and now and then I have to take a step and remember humble is better than bluster.

If we listened to reloading manuals and Gun writers, the 45 Colt would never have been loaded up in Ruger revolvers. They told us the cases were too thin, and even if the gun could handle it the brass couldn't. They told us the guns couldn't. This went on for many years. Now is it meat and potatos the 45 Colt handloaded is a wonderful round, in many instances out performing the 44 mag with less pressure and easier shooting recoil.

I go to the Old Marlin lever forum- no longer in existence, btw, and since I can't find a 375 Winchester chambered rifle I get a Marlin Cowboy in 38/55. I'm going to load it to 375 speeds, I let everyone know.

They wanted to hang me. They quoted Speer as saying never do this. Their resident Guru went nuts with disbelief and outrage, and his cronies followed suit. I kept insisting this was going to happen and was going to be safe, besides. The Guru finally relented, and turned out to be a pretty good guy too- he sent me photos of his wonderful collection of levers. He really loved them. When someone loves something, and puts that much care and interest into it, you ever notice you can't help but take a little of that love yourself?

There are many more things under the Sun, than meet your philosophy- I gotta remember that.


munk
 
I think I understand now why someone would buy one of these military guns.
It's pretty much the same reason that I keep a box full of tools from Harbor Freight in my truck, and keep my Snap-On, Mac, and Craftsman tool in the roll-away chest in my garage.
 
No, Ben, that isn't it. I mean, having a useful tool that you won't cry over (too much) if it's lost or stolen is only one very small part, and true only of the common and inexpensive models. Most Military weapons are expensive. For another, many of them are the finest examples of the Art. The Garand, Mauser, O3, M14, FNFAL, and G3 are well built machines.
Beside, unlike Harbor Frieght, very few Military weapons will break easily. The SKS is what Kismet said- built like a hammer.

munk
 
The chinese fixed 20 rounders DO need to be tweaked, but given that, and that I put them on chinese SKS's, I may have lucked out.

Point is that at the time ( just before the AWB ) you could buy chinese SKS's for at or under $100 bucks. For $25 bucks more you could drop in a 20 round fixed mag. At the time Colt AR-15's were going for over $650. You could buy 5 sks's and 5 20 round fixed and be $25 under the cost of an AR.

Ben-Aroun's Harbor Freight analogy is apt, to an extent, though I don't agree with classifying the sks's as just beaters. If you look up on mouseguns.com there's an artical titled Cheap guns are good enough. Makarovs are another case of being worth way more than what they are going for.

The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
 
The heavy barreled Colt Hbar green lable was 800 bucks from B and B sales just before the Calif ban. I think the Standard colt was about 650

Those were great days of cosmoline.

I may try a fixed 20 again. I really liked it, and it doesn't ruin the low profile all that much, but as I said, everytime I'd start to trust it, a jam or two. I don't think I ever had any standard fixed 10 round jam that was not ammo related.

I saw a test report once on velocity variations of Soviet Short ammo over different lots and manufacturers. Some of the surplus ammo we had in those days had signifcantly degraded and no longer gave full velocity and peak pressure.


Rusty, I miss those days.
The Desert rang with the crack of the SKS and AR16

I remember once I took an SKS or AK out with me shooting. There was a bullet ridden car- one of those wrecks that recieved the gift of ten thousand bullets if left overnight in the desert. I shot at it with the old steel core ammo. The vehicle started smoking- yikes.



munk
 
There are two AK varients I've always wondered about but have no personal experience with- the Valmet and the Galil. Both have Cults built around them.

Well, I'm not personally experienced either, but I know my friend Edmund Rowe expansively answered the question a few years ago. I believe his opinion is mirrored on the Israeli Special Forces website, which pulls no punches. Basically, they're very heavy. The IMI Galil is heavy, not accurate and you can't place any optics on it without special adapters... (Would LOVE to have one of these, though: http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/mar.htm )

Lot of good things said about the Saiga .308 versions. Price is great, accuracy is supposed to be close to MOA w/ good ammo. Major drawback appears to be lack of high-cap mags, if that's a priority to you.

John
 
Are Siaga's still single stack mags, or was that gone with the AWB?

Here's a true story; the first time I opened up an AK 47, I was fairly new to firearms. I couldn't figure out why that hay bale wire was in there. I even tugged at it with a screw driver to get it out. Then I realized that was the action spring. I was so shocked. I never looked at a Valmet the same way again.

munk
 
The Saiga's will go away soon. EAA sold the Russian line off to a major mfgr. who will import the doubles but not the AK variants. So get them while you can.

I may have the details confused, but that's the gist of what I've heard.
 
Last I heard, Saiga 7.62x39s were going for as little as $179.
Of course- to my thinking- why not add a other few bucks, and get one you won't have to monkey with to reliably feed standard AK mags? The SAR-1 is in the $300 range (new), but I believe there are even less expensive AK options.

OTOH, if you don't care about detachable mag, look for a good used SKS, mount a peep, and have a nice day. :)

John
 
Speaking of .35 Whelen- great cartridge. Traded mine to a friend and mentor, since he's not in great health, and I knew he really wanted one. Hit a decent doe w/ one two seasons ago- she took two steps and went down. 250 is indeed the way to go, and knowing how heavier bullets retain energy, it is surprising that's not an obvious conclusion to practically everyone.

J
 
"Body armor" used to be called flak vests...that's about all they are good for...random pieces of flying metal.
 
That's right, and with a 300 yard max range, that's mine anyway, which leaves you with a 12 inch low or so, you just can't drive any bullet weight for that cartridge more efficiently.

Listening to the AK - Saiga- SKS discussion has brought back everything I used to kick around.

I think Kismet has to figure out what he wants.

Spectre, is there any reason to believe the Saiga's more accurate than standard Russian AK's? It is my impression a Saiga is going to be a better weapon than a cheap Sar AK.

You do get the great AK action in a package that looks more harmless with the Saiga.

I'm on my way now to AR15.com to check in on the rabid AK-SKS folks and see what is going on. I"m actually going to reexamine the AWB and see what has happened to the point count for imports. I thought that was dropped but Rusty says it's still in effect.

I have the NMH I'd like to put into a an AMerican AK Stock, but because the muzzle is threaded under the old system I'd need 6 US parts, not 5. This is the between bans weapon that required 5 and not the 15 parts insisted upon later. Now, if any of that makes sense; congratulations.
 
I should hang around the gun boards more often- I see the friggin parts count is still in effect. Anything I could say about that now would be not fit to print and alert the Carnivore program.


munk
 
I've had a problem with my Russian SKS not firing. Not striking the primers hard enough. I took the whole thing apart and lubricated the firing pin and bolt and all. I didn't take the bolt apart, but the firing pin appeared to be intact. I took it back apart with the intention of investigating further but I haven't done it yet. It's been abt. a year and it's still setting on my reloading table to be looked at ;) I guess I'll take the bolt apart and clean it and then put it back together again.

Maybe next would be buy a new firing pin or spring for the hammer that hits the firing pin.

They are cool guns. I love using the stripper clips. :D
 
Kismet, I went to that site and read the review of the .308 Saiga. It was fine- accuracy was even improved because of the 3 lug vs two lug bolt. What was scary?

munk
 
What do the spent cases look like, Hollow? It could be headspace or just that you got a defective spec pin.

The Russians were among the first to chrome line bores; is your SKS chrome lined?



munk
 
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