overpriced blades

mctrinket said:
Well that's the problem though--and Hinderer created the problem with their business model that only sells to certain people (qualified LEOs, first responders, etc.). They also say that if you want a knife check with their listed retail distributors--but the retail distributors, who presumably are paying the Hinderer direct price--promptly mark up the knife 200+%.

It's really a crappy business model, in my opinion, one that is lining the pockets of a lot of middle men. The Hinderer folks are getting the same amount for the knife; it's the end user that is getting screwed. I also wonder how many of the knives that are purchased direct by "qualified" customers promply turn around and flip the knife for double what they paid then just order another from the company, etc., etc.

But the Hinderer folks don't seem to care.

It's too bad. They are nice knives a lot of decent folks would probably like a chance to own. But it has really soured me on their brand.
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... a LOT have been buying and flipping their XM's...and they DO care about the "quick flipping" of their products and have implemented a new selling policy...won't stop the flipping but it's a start...it will make the "first responders" who are buying at every purchase period with the primary intent to flip to think twice; less they be flagged for banishment...
 
retzius said:
I hear where you are coming from, but you are focusing only on materials and perceived build quality. You are giving no monetary value to innovation. Ernie Emerson's blades may seem a bit crude compared to much of the 'tactical folders' you see these days, but it's easy to forget that he pioneered many of these ideas and designs, at a financial and artistic risk to his career. It's hard to put a price on that and I respect that.
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I will admit that I love the Emerson designs, but what could possibly be more important than perceived build quality? I carry an Endura wave, Starbenza, and SAK almost every day, and a free Emerson wouldn't change that. The starbenza might be overpriced maybe, but it makes me happy and is absolutely reliable and consistent. I am glad Emerson is in the business to contribute his ideas and I really think he could design a dream folder. I just wish he could make one in a prodution format that wasn't 5 times as expensive as other production knives that performed comparably well, or at the build quality and pricepoints of top-end spydercos
 
If Mike Snody's facebook is to be believed, I would say that a few of his recent custom folders selling for $2,200 is ridiculously overpriced.
 
I love my Spyderco's and own about 40 of their folders but there are several Spyderco fixed blades that are over priced, imho. Those include the Temperance 2, Bushcraft Survival, Puukko, Street Beat and the Spyderco/Wilson South Fork.
 
I'm sure for 99% of people, any knife over $10 is overpriced. But the same people who won't pay more than $10 for a knife are happy to pay $30k+ for a car, $200+ for a pair of shoes or $2k+ for a holiday.
 
BladeChick777 said:
RemyKaze... In a way I agree.
In another way... I completely disagree.
I have never bought a knife just because everyone else is.
I think that logic is more common in clothing and video games.

Mostly in the knife world people buy a knife that they like the design of and think would fit well in their uses.
Not to say that some people don't buy knives because others do. Because they do infact do that. I see it a lot with Chris Reeve knives. People have lots of knives and then decide they HAVE to have a Sebenza because so many people on here have and love them.
I want a Sebenza or Umnumzaan... because I handled one of each and fell in love.
The fact is, you do NOT need to compete to see how high up you can get in knives. I've gotten up there and then cut down and now I'm up there again. I'm simply searching for what I want/need for my uses.
A lot of people are searching to see how many knives they can get.. or how high priced they can get... I see that they love knives and they're excited.
But I say get what you want and what you can use. You can't take them with you when you die.
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I think it's more that a combination of a well-executed knife, and people's enthusiasm about said knife, greatly aid the "impulse buy" part of people who are already hunting for a knife. I personally am always on the hunt for new designs...and sometimes I'm almost bitten by the Busse bug. The only thing that saves me from folders is that I'm not a huge fan of anything but a strong working man's folder. Bu truly...people should get whatever they want, based on whatever motivations they have. My own motivations are along the lines of "Can I depend on this knife to be there for me when I need it?"
 
I am ill today and bored. So why not speculate regarding pricing. My random thoughts for anyone interested.

Is there really that much difference between premium folding knives and cheaper ones from known manufacturers? The cost in making these knives seem to be based on the following factors:

1. Is it made in USA or abroad (China, Taiwan etc.)?
USA made is more expensive than Taiwan, not only because of labour cost but the emotional connection for something US-made. It is easier to raise the price on a US-made item if the customers are more nationalistic. Which I guess they are in both the knife market and the gun market, and maybe the car market (or at least used to be).

2. Is it made of a "super steel" or a steel like D2/ATS34/440C?
Super steels are better in most cases than the old proven steels like D2 and ATS34. I guess most knife interested customers want "the best". Well the miniscule amount of steel needed to make a blade for a folder must be a very small part of the overall cost. Again emotional issues gives the knife industry arguments in their marketing and rises the price. "I want the best, I do not want a tool that fails in a critical moment." (wheter it is whittling fire wood or deanimating people)

3. Is it a collaboration with a famous custom maker?
I have always been interested in how the custom makers get paid when they collaborate with a manufacturer. My guess is that if they are well known a large fixed sum is guaranteed and a smaller sum is paid per sold knife. If the maker is up-and-coming he probably gets a smaller one-time sum and is paid per knife after a certain amount of them are sold. And of course a mix of both depending on the negotiation skills of the custom maker and sale records of previous collaboration models.

4. Are the scales/lock made of Titanium?
Titanium is cheap. Yes, cheap. It is however a pain to work with, unless you have the knowledge and right tools. So if it is worked on in USA vs Taiwan the labour cost is a factor. The tools are the same. Again it is an emotional argument. Someone might think Titanium is much stronger than steel! Yes, but it is based on weight, not volume. One pound of Titanium is stronger than one pound of steel, but the volume will differ.

5. Is the brand known for a premium price point (due to good marketing)?
Brand. Coke or Pepsi, it is your choice. Both are colored sugar water (I drink Coke). Knives are a more complex product but lets face it. Using premium steel and titanium isn´t the biggest cost for making a knife. Labour is, and marketing, and maybe tooling (more on that later). Buying a knife made in USA is cool - if you know why you are doing it. But do not fool yourself that the quality is better, a CNC machine does what you order it to do. No matter what country it is in.

A manufacturer that disclose as much information as possible on the above points is the one that earns my respect. It would be interesting how many manufacturers are using CNC machines and MIM in their production.

There are a few manufacturers who make and sell a lot of knives and often try to sneak by changes in production (cheaper materials, country it is made in etc.) and keeps silent of the changes. Not because it needs to be a secret but for instance keep the image of "custom made knife" when in reality it is a "mid-tech" which in turn probably only means that they bought a nice CNC machine or found a production facility that can deliver a "production knife" with a higher quality for a lower price. In this case tooling cost is not a direct costing issue.

Something I also have learnt is that the mark-up is higher on a custom folder than a custom fixed blade. Maybe the same is true regarding production folders?

I won´t mention names becasue i am not interested in "brand-bashing". If you look past all the marketing and emotional issues there are a few good knives out there. Check out (name witheld) for instance. The quality and design of that folder is just excellent. That is why I am still here.

/C.
 
RetiredGuns said:
Flawed generalities, analogies & assumptions. Chris Reeve has been making knives for decades. They sell not because of "As seen on TV" or "Blue light specials" but because they are damn good knives that not only hold up but hold their value indefinitely. Actually Glocks, Beemers and Hogs just the same. Try again.
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BMWs are lazy with their paint jobs, and their replacement part prices are ridiculous. As for Harleys, they're way down the chain on quality, yet their selling point is pretty high for what they are. Also no one said that these things don't hold their value. Only that people often buy them because someone else did. Case in point, I just discovered the Harley Night Rod, which is the first Harley I've liked the look of(I'm into the Honda Valkyrie). I show a picture to my friend, so she starts telling me to ditch the trash and get a Harley, after showing me a much flashier model. I tell her it IS a Harley, and she has no response. You may call it generalities, but only in the sense that I generally see it every day of my life, in every niche of life. People buy what's popular. To say otherwise would imply that people like Bear Grylls, Justin Bieber, Nicki Minaj etc have talent and offer something to society.

As for what I meant about knives, see my above statement. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing all these CR knives and Striders and such. I meant only that people already like them, and then are bitten by the bug when they see everyone else lavishing praise on them. For every one person that buys the knife based on their own opinions about it, there will be nine that do so based on the opinions of others.

By the way I'm in no way trying to start an argument, so if something I said offends...I'm claiming "It's 6am and I'm half awake.":p
 
This discussion is pointless. It's more of a perception and where you currently are in life as to what is even considered expensive and YOUR own personal value system.
No one is trading in their Porsche for a Civic, just like no one is traded their Strider for a Cold Steel.
 
RemyKaze said:
BMWs are lazy with their paint jobs, and their replacement part prices are ridiculous. As for Harleys, they're way down the chain on quality, yet their selling point is pretty high for what they are. Also no one said that these things don't hold their value. Only that people often buy them because someone else did. Case in point, I just discovered the Harley Night Rod, which is the first Harley I've liked the look of(I'm into the Honda Valkyrie). I show a picture to my friend, so she starts telling me to ditch the trash and get a Harley, after showing me a much flashier model. I tell her it IS a Harley, and she has no response. You may call it generalities, but only in the sense that I generally see it every day of my life, in every niche of life. People buy what's popular. To say otherwise would imply that people like Bear Grylls, Justin Bieber, Nicki Minaj etc have talent and offer something to society.

As for what I meant about knives, see my above statement. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing all these CR knives and Striders and such. I meant only that people already like them, and then are bitten by the bug when they see everyone else lavishing praise on them. For every one person that buys the knife based on their own opinions about it, there will be nine that do so based on the opinions of others.

By the way I'm in no way trying to start an argument, so if something I said offends...I'm claiming "It's 6am and I'm half awake.":p
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I get what you are trying to say. Some of the finer things are indeed coveted and of course not all the stuff is a good value. Sometimes its a fad and sometimes it's just good. Is a Rolex overpriced? I'd take one but it's priced over my head. Same with a Hinderer, Colt Python, 1969 1/2 440 6pack SuperBee, etc... I guess I don't see something as actually overpriced if it can be sold at no loss or a gain very readily such as some of the fine knives. Knives are a bit different because they are generally affordable and many folks can try out a lot of them and of course the latest, greatest is always the buzz in the air. After the fanfare dies down a bit there are still many knives that keep going and going such as a CRK.

And yeah, I haven't had my first cup of Joe yet so I'm likely babbling. :rolleyes:
 
Boozoo Chavis said:
I love my Spyderco's and own about 40 of their folders but there are several Spyderco fixed blades that are over priced, imho. Those include the Temperance 2, Bushcraft Survival, Puukko, Street Beat and the Spyderco/Wilson South Fork.
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The Puuko makes me scratch my head too, but the South Fork is tempting even at that price, esp if they heat treat it similar to what Wilson heat treats to.
 
RemyKaze said:
As for Harleys, they're way down the chain on quality, yet their selling point is pretty high for what they are. Also no one said that these things don't hold their value
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When is the last time you rode a newer Harley or have talked with owners of newer Harleys? They have a bad reputation from decades ago, but the newer ones are much higher quality, and do not really lack compared to any other manufacture. That is a good example of a perception that lingers not really based on current production. I do feel Harleys are overpriced btw, but the quality and reliability is not lacking.
 
retzius said:
I hear where you are coming from, but you are focusing only on materials and perceived build quality. You are giving no monetary value to innovation. Ernie Emerson's blades may seem a bit crude compared to much of the 'tactical folders' you see these days, but it's easy to forget that he pioneered many of these ideas and designs, at a financial and artistic risk to his career. It's hard to put a price on that and I respect that.
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What innovation? Like you said, "much of the 'tactical folders' you see these days". Emerson pioneered a couple decades ago, and now the tactical market dominates with a lot of brands making better knives with the same or better materials. At this point, there is zero financial/artistic risk other than the repeated statement that EKIs cost too much when compared to the competition.
 
Emerson, of course. Bland, inexpensive materials and notoriously poor fit & finish. The profit margin on them must be enormous.
 
RetiredGuns said:
I get what you are trying to say. Some of the finer things are indeed coveted and of course not all the stuff is a good value. Sometimes its a fad and sometimes it's just good. Is a Rolex overpriced? I'd take one but it's priced over my head. Same with a Hinderer, Colt Python, 1969 1/2 440 6pack SuperBee, etc... I guess I don't see something as actually overpriced if it can be sold at no loss or a gain very readily such as some of the fine knives. Knives are a bit different because they are generally affordable and many folks can try out a lot of them and of course the latest, greatest is always the buzz in the air. After the fanfare dies down a bit there are still many knives that keep going and going such as a CRK.

And yeah, I haven't had my first cup of Joe yet so I'm likely babbling. :rolleyes:
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I'd like to point out though that just because something is expensive, or everyone seems to want it, that doesn't detract from damned good workmanship. If I had the money to spend, I'd surely end up getting customs as well. I do like the lines of CRKs, just can't commit to them. I don't think it applies as well to knives as it does to other things, because on the whole if you're paying a lot for a knife, you're usually paying for quality and dependability. Which of course, makes us blade enthusiasts more likely to come out with better deals no matter how much money we throw down.
 
Everyone has their affordable range for various reasons and they will be different depending on income level and budget.

So for some a $5 Gas Station knife is in their budget while others a CRK fits.

Same reason why everyone doesn't live in $5 Million Dollar Homes, drive $250,000 cars, wear $25,000 watches and have their own private jets.
 
Overpriced is hard for me to say since the design and proper execution of the design, is more important than actual materials used, as long as they are decent.

If looking at what is overpriced as far as what is needed instead of what money gets you a little more convenience or luxury you could list oodles of them.

A good example of brands with hardly any models overpriced are some of the ones that died.

Pretty much anything in 1095 that isn't a custom, is smaller than a sword, and costs $70++++ is overpriced - but yet it's also probably the most popular fixed blade segment.
 
nccole said:
When is the last time you rode a newer Harley or have talked with owners of newer Harleys? They have a bad reputation from decades ago, but the newer ones are much higher quality, and do not really lack compared to any other manufacture. That is a good example of a perception that lingers not really based on current production. I do feel Harleys are overpriced btw, but the quality and reliability is not lacking.
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I think their production is fine honestly. However a lot of people in my area seem to think they are 1st in quality when they're really say...3rd-5th. The name gets them to the top of the list like a line at a club. Some of them are honestly pretty gorgeous bikes...but the same amount of weekend warriors ride them as do those who spend half their time on a bike, because of their name and perspective as a status symbol. That being said, that Night Rod calls to me, and I find it amusing that the one Harley I'm really into, none of my friends seemed to like. :rolleyes:
 
Socom Elite said:
I think the Cold Steel Rhino also uses AUS 8 steel and It used to be around $250 I believe
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It is AUS 8.
I liked the look of it, but didn't see it being worth the price they were asking....true of most of the CS "customs".
However, when they discontinued it and put a price of $64.99 on it, I picked one up fast...wish I had ordered two.

You have to guess they were still making some profit at $65 which would indicate how really overpriced it was originally.
 
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