overpriced blades

jamesbeat said:
More exotic steels are more expensive, but when you're talking about 3-6" of steel bar stock for a blade, the price difference is tiny.
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A 2,3,4 even 5 times increase in blade steel cost is not a "tiny" difference. Not to mention the increased time and machine wear it takes to actually make a blade out of say, CPM-154 (not even an "exotic" steel, really) compared to 420. There's a reason so many factory knives are made of cheap stainless: it's designed from the outset to be easy to die-cut/blank out, easy to HT, and easy to grind. That's simply not the case with more highly-alloyed steels.

As for Mr. Snody; his marketing approach is different from mine. That's good, it just means we're not stepping on each others' toes. Much Respect from up North :thumbup:
 
james terrio said:
A 2,3,4 even 5 times increase in blade steel cost is not a "tiny" difference. Not to mention the increased time and machine wear it takes to actually make a blade out of say, CPM-154 (not even an "exotic" steel, really) compared to 420.
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Back home in the UK, I was a partner in a body jewelry manufacturing business.
Because of a silly misguided piece of EC legislation, we had to switch practically overnight from 316l stainless steel to grade 23 Ti6AL4V ELI titanium. Talk about your increased materials costs and tooling wear! (not to mention production time, because we had to machine the titanium much slower because of heat buildup)

We actually discovered that it didn't cost much more in the end. As a percentage of material/tooling cost increases for us, it was enormous, but because the profit margin on jewelry is so high in the first place, we were able to keep our prices the same without losing much money.
Thing is, in the modern western world, materials are cheap and labor is expensive (it used to be the other way around) so the increase in price of raw materials and tooling wear was comparatively small compared with the overheads that stayed the same, such as wages, rent for the factory, power etc. (with wages being the highest expense.)

All of our competitors (who were giants compared with our small operation) used the new legislation to justify 100% price increases, and now most of the body jewelry in the UK comes from places like Malaysia, Thailand and, of course, China.
 
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jamesbeat said:
Back home in the UK, I was a partner in a body jewelry manufacturing business.
Because of a silly misguided piece of EC legislation, we had to switch practically overnight from 316l stainless steel to grade 23 Ti6AL4V ELI titanium. Talk about your increased materials costs and tooling wear! (not to mention production time, because we had to machine the titanium much slower because of heat buildup)

We actually discovered that it didn't cost much more in the end. As a percentage of material/tooling cost increases for us, it was enormous, but because the profit margin on jewelry is so high in the first place, we were able to keep our prices the same without losing much money.
Thing is, in the modern western world, materials are cheap and labor is expensive (it used to be the other way around) so the increase in price of raw materials and tooling wear was comparatively small compared with the overheads that stayed the same, such as wages, rent for the factory, power etc. (with wages being the highest expense.)

All of our competitors (who were giants compared with our small operation) used the new legislation to justify 100% price increases, and now most of the body jewelry in the UK comes from places like Malaysia, Thailand and, of course, China.
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You really need to include one more big piece of the puzzle which is annual output. If a custom maker makes 200 knives in a year and you make 50,000 pieces of jewelry, then you have way more opportunities to spread that cost out. I am sure you understand this, just wanted to note it.
 
Yes absolutely.
I was referring more to the industry giants using mechanised production methods, not the custom bladesmiths.
A man making one blade has to be compensated for his time, and if an exotic steel takes a couple of hours more work to make into a blade, then that's a couple more hours he needs to be compensated for.

I was thinking more along the lines of the household name companies that churn out tens if not hundreds of thousands of stamped, waterjet or laser cut knives per year.
The way they talk in their advertising, you'd think that steel was as expensive as gold or something.
 
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Socom Elite said:
There are some people that pay $400 and up for a spyderco military or a Para Military. Even though they have s90v blades damn that's too much for that knife. Check the completed auctions on eBay and you will be surprised how much people pay for some sprint run spydercos. I can get an XM 18, strider, or Sebenza for those prices
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I love how the Spyderco with better materials is seen as overpriced to you, by comparing it to much more expensive folders with inferior materials?? Yet you are not calling THOSE overpriced??

I agree that four hundred is too much. Granted I carry one of those sprit runs that go for that much, but I spent much less on it.
 
jamesbeat said:
I was thinking more along the lines of the household name companies that churn out tens if not hundreds of thousands of stamped, waterjet or laser cut knives per year.
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So am I. In fact, a one-man shop like mine can actually absorb the cost of high-end materials somewhat easier than a factory can - I don't have the same expenses in terms of staff, advertising, insurance, etc. - that all counts as overhead too.

Regardless of steel selection, why do you think you see so many bead-blasted and coated factory knives? Because it makes a better knife? They're fast and easy to do. That means cheaper - much cheaper - than high-grit finishes and mirror polishes.

Tooling and machine wear are extremely important, often more than the material itself. Even a hardness difference of a couple Rc points on the same steel makes a cost difference to the factories that HT before grinding (which I believe is essentially all of them). Takes longer (more wages, more electricity, less production), wears out belts and wheels quicker (more $$ in the direct tooling plus down-time to change them out more often). When you go to a higher-hardness steel that is also more wear-resistant (not exactly the same things, by the way) that can really get magnified.

Anyway I don't really have a dog in this fight so I'll shush now. Just trying to clear up some misconceptions about what making a knife actually costs - regardless of what it sells for.
 
Emerson ($200 for bad F&F, 154CM, and G10 handles? I don't think so.)
Strider
Hinderer (self-explanatory)
Some Chris Reeve knives
Some Benchmades (ex. Emissary 470, balisongs)
Microtech (all of them)
SOG (competition uses same materials for 25-50% less)
Cold Steel's higher-quality products
ZT (since the price jumps took over)
 
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IMO a knife is supposed to be used. I personally would never pay over $100 for a knife. I just don't understand how some people can pay soooo much money for something that just sits and doesn't get used for its intended purpose. You can get a tough as nails Becker for under $100 easy, that looks great and works exceptionally well. So on topic any knife over $100 for me is overpriced. Just my opinion.
 
Someone mentioned Snody, and from my views, some of Snodys knives I would never buy simply because of aesthetics, other knives of his I would love to own. So for me a good part of knives is design, I prefer full flat grinds, polished. My reasons are fairly simple, for me quality isn't just the steel or handle materials, it's how much work the craftsman or company puts into the work.

I have very little desire for a new car because I value gas mileage over speed, I value a debt free and low insurance vehicle over higher premiums and monthly payments. The same attitude carries over into the knives I own, I perceive a value in them.

In my mind there are many knives that are overpriced and I'll cite Kramer knives as a good example, such high prices for 52100 steel to me are absurd, especially since I could go to a custom knife maker that isn't Bob Kramer and have a quality knife of whatever steel I want, with whatever handle material I want at whatever RC I want in a realistic time-frame for a fraction of the price. Heck for the cost of a Kramer I bet I could make my own kitchen knives, while learning something new.

I'm not knocking the guy, I wish him more success, as much as he can handle, I hope he becomes a legend, a craftsman that stands alone at the pinnacle of his craft and stays there until someone better comes along and claims that success. That doesn't change my mind about value and I know it won't change the minds of those who value his work.

Every maker, every company that can stay in business, more power to them, they make enough people content or happy to stay afloat, it means they're doing something right even if I don't value it.
 
retzius said:
That still doesnt explain the pimp vibe. Rolex, as you brought up, does not market itself with gold chains, gold bars, dollar bills, and bling bling.

I was just wondering what the 'image' was that he was going for. It reminds me of a rags to riches ghetto fab type thing.
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Sorry, that was more directed at the comment Snody replied to. But Breitling does advertise with John Travolta standing next to his jet. That's pretty flashy if you ask me. But yes, gangsta seems to be Snodys style. He has a lot of character for sure.
 
Axisjoe said:
IMO a knife is supposed to be used. I personally would never pay over $100 for a knife. I just don't understand how some people can pay soooo much money for something that just sits and doesn't get used for its intended purpose. You can get a tough as nails Becker for under $100 easy, that looks great and works exceptionally well. So on topic any knife over $100 for me is overpriced. Just my opinion.
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Eh, I'd have to personally disagree. Any knife that costs under $100 I end up questioning the quality of. It would seem to me that I'm compromising capability or quality for "bang for buck."

Some people have no problem paying $100, $200, $300, or $400+ for a knife. Just because you wouldn't like to to scrape a $400 knife on concrete to get a job done doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't think twice. CRK's, for example, seem to me to be fairly reasonable. Sprint run Spyderco's sometimes seem to be a steal. Personally I get "sticker shock" the most often when I go out to eat. I like to cook (and I'd say that I'm a fairly good chef) so when I see food at restaurants that I'm certain I could make for 25% of the price, I'd contend that it is overpriced.

How many of us here on Bladeforums have machining skills or manufacturing experience at the level of knife makers or knife companies? I'd wager not very many. This would tend to skew a lot of people's conception of what knives "should" cost. They want a good with the highest quality for the lowest possible cost. This is often at odds with the reality of manufacturing and profit margins.

Some knives are going to cost more than others, even when made of the exact same materials, because they are held to higher standards or have more manufacturing steps involved in their production. I'm sure that you'd like to be fairly paid for your work; I'm also fairly sure that I could find someone willing to do the same job for less money. Why shouldn't a knife machinist be the same?
 
Any knives that cost as much if not more than a custom 1911 or AR15. A knife should not cost more than a gun period but custom knives that cost more than custom guns???? Seems weird to me. Like a bicycle costing more than a car ;)
 
Snody said:
Thanks for mentioning my name..
I have been a Professional Knife Maker for over 15 years and Invested well over $150,000.00 in equipment
My shop rate is much lower than the local muffler repair center..
My knives are made by hand in America and I am proud of my work.
Knifemaking is my sole source of income to provide for a family of four.
My knives have steadily appreciated in value for the past decade.

Here is a folder that sold for $3,750.00 two weeks ago.
reactor.jpg


The one you are talking about was a Custom Black-Out Damascus Resistor that sold last night for $2,250.00
resistordamascus3.jpg


This Custom Reactor sold last week for $2,750.00
compactreactor9.jpg


Thanks again and please visit my subforum "SnodyLand" here at Bladeforums.
Much Respect from Texas..
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Your knives are rather cool but to be respected, whoever bought its at 2000$+ seems to had some mental problem or something, IMO.
 
why you gotta' say that for? it sold at the market price for a handsome and handmade work of art by a craftsman of the blade.
 
shqxk said:
Your knives are rather cool but to be respected, whoever bought its at 2000$+ seems to had some mental problem or something, IMO.
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With all respect to Snody, what is it that makes his knives worth 2 grand? Aesthetics? Ergos? Exotic steel?
 
singularity35 said:
With all respect to Snody, what is it that makes his knives worth 2 grand? Aesthetics? Ergos? Exotic steel?
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I think to custom knife collectors Snody is the real deal. He's a player. If you go over to his subforum and look at the pictures thread, you'll see he's pretty prolific at making very interesting knives. Whatever "IT" is in the knife design business, Snody's got it. Good designs, good craftsmanship, good marketing. I think the specific prices are simply the market embracing good product. Those are prices you see for good custom knives.
 
singularity35 said:
With all respect to Snody, what is it that makes his knives worth 2 grand? Aesthetics? Ergos? Exotic steel?
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Demand. It's simple economics.
There are only so many made. If you want one, you are competing with others who want one. Thus, you have to pay.:)
Or not have one. It's up to you.

What makes a Ferrari worth more than a Chevy?
What makes a Van Gogh worth more than my doodles?
What makes a meal made by a top chef worth more than my father's signature home cooked meal of tuna and beans? (the secret is the ratio of two cans of beans to one can of tuna;))
 
stabman said:
Demand. It's simple economics.
There are only so many made. If you want one, you are competing with others who want one. Thus, you have to pay.:)
Or not have one. It's up to you.

What makes a Ferrari worth more than a Chevy?
What makes a Van Gogh worth more than my doodles?
What makes a meal made by a top chef worth more than my father's signature home cooked meal of tuna and beans? (the secret is the ratio of two cans of beans to one can of tuna;))
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Your argument is invalid.

Most people will recognized both richness and awesomeness of Ferrari owner, It actually a chick magnet also.

No people wouldn't noticed the elegance of Rolex.

Any knifenut would appreciate any Damascus Sebenza.

And so what the 3000$ Snody folder? I bet 99% of hardcore knifenut would just 'facepalm' seeing its price.
 
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