Schrade FAQ: Is the answer to your question here? Steel, dates, models.

[Codger_64]

Always a pleasure to have someone come here who had connections to the cutleries!

As an aside, a brief correction on the history is in order. Ulster was Dwight Divine & Sons. The sons sold the company to Albert Baer in 1940, who renamed it Ulster, one of the Divine's trademarks.

He bought Schrade Cutlery of Walden from the Schrade family in 1946, renaming it Schrade Walden. Schrade Walden moved to Ellenville in 1958 and was consolidated there with Ulster.

Eventually, Ulster reverted to a trademark and Schrade Walden was renamed Schrade Cutlery company until Baer bought out the Mirando shares of Imperial and consolidated it also with Schrade becoming Imperial Schrade circa 1984, moving into the Channelmaster building.

Other seperate parts of the Baer empire were the Jowika factory in Listowel, Ireland and Camillus Cutlery in which he owned about 1/3rd interest since he left there in 1939. He bought the remaining shares in circa 1963 after the death of Alfred Kastor, and bequeathed it to his daughters whose families continued to run it until it closed in 2007.

 

[Conchovtx]

Always a pleasure to have someone come here who had connections to the cutleries!

As an aside, a brief correction on the history is in order. Ulster was Dwight Divine & Sons. The sons sold the company to Albert Baer in 1940, who renamed it Ulster, one of the Divine's trademarks.

He bought Schrade Cutlery of Walden from the Schrade family in 1946, renaming it Schrade Walden. Schrade Walden moved to Ellenville in 1958 and was consolidated there with Ulster.

Eventually, Ulster reverted to a trademark and Schrade Walden was renamed Schrade Cutlery company until Baer bought out the Mirando shares of Imperial and consolidated it also with Schrade becoming Imperial Schrade circa 1984, moving into the Channelmaster building.

Other seperate parts of the Baer empire were the Jowika factory in Listowel, Ireland and Camillus Cutlery in which he owned about 1/3rd interest since he left there in 1939. He bought the remaining shares in circa 1963 after the death of Alfred Kastor, and bequeathed it to his daughters whose families continued to run it until it closed in 2007.

I guess it's whatever version of the history you believe.

http://bearsystems.com/ellenvil/ulsterknife.htm

The Ulster Knife Works, Ellenville -- In 1870 a cooperative association organized for the purpose of engaging in the manufacture of pocket cutlery was formed in Naugatuck, Connecticut. It consisted of fifty members, all of whom were skilled workmen, and a majority of whom had been trained in the cutlery center of Sheffield, England. Capital stock was $25,000, with shares of $25 each.

In 1871 they heard that Ellenville, Ulster County, New York, was interested in having such a business located there. A local committee headed by Eli D. Terwilliger and William H. Otis had already operated in an effort to secure such an industry for Ellenville. Arrangements were made with the Naugatuck group to come to Ellenville for a conference. Negotiations finally led to the formation of the Ellenville Knife Building Company, which purchased the foundry property of John L. Bloomer & Sons on the Beer Kill in August, 1871.

The company succeeded in making a fine grade of cutlery, but its finances were not sufficiently strong to enable it to continue long as a cooperative company. It could not meet its obligations, and by 1875 was practically bankrupt. At this time "The Ulster Knife Company" was incorporated by Jacob Hermance, John Lyon, Alfred Neafie, R. Harvey Brodhead and Dwight Divine. This group assumed all the obligations of the company and proceeded with the manufacture of knives. The name Ulster was then adopted as the trade mark for its cutlery, and has since been used to designate one of the most popular and dependable lines of cutlery ever made in this country.

In 1878 Dwight Divine took over the entire responsibility, and continued the business as an individual enterprise, although he retained the organization of the Ulster Knife Company. William Booth, one of the original group, was retained as foreman, and so continued until his death many years later. Mr. Divine proved to be a very efficient business man, and gradually straightened out the tangled financial situation and placed the business on a paying basis, in spite of a fire which destroyed the plant in 1880. The buildings were soon replaced. About four hundred workmen were finally employed.

In 1926, Mr. Divine organized as Dwight Divine & Sons, Inc., taking into partnership his two sons, C. Dwight and John H. Divine, who carried on the business after the death of their father in 1932. John H. Divine died in November, 1943. In 1941, the control of the Ulster Knife Company was transferred from the Divine family to a group of capitalists, with Albert M. Baer president.

It is claimed that the Ulster Knife Works is the oldest shop of its kind now in existence in this country.

 

[Codger_64]

I don't see where the version you posted and mine conflict. Here is an excerpt from Albert Baer's memoirs recounting in his own words the purchase of Devine's Ulster. Corporate records from the Secretary Of State bear this out. Yes, the papers were finalized in January of 1941, not December of 1940 when negotiations began. ANd Baer left Camillus in October of 1940, not in 1939 as I posted above. I don't have access to my complete archived records at the moment, so I am posting from memory mostly. But Schrade was not acquired until post-WWII.

At Utica, I began an active conversation with Walter Matt, son of F. X. Matt of Utica Brewery. He wanted me badly and gave me all their "figures. II It looked surely as though I would make a deal and take over Utica. But one day, after some stalling, I learned that Alfred had reached Walter Matt, threatening him that if he made a deal with me, they would leave no stone unturned to "break" Utica and it was a most unfriendly act on Mattis part to deal with me.

This was not the case with C. C. Devine, whom I reached via Ellenville and Frieda Van Keuren, in his room at the Commodore Hotel in New York, where he was attending a meeting of the Cutlery Association. Did I say room? It was a closet with a bed. I sat on the chair while C. D. Devine sat on the bed and with an unlit cigar which he chewed and spat from one corner of his mouth, he explained that he and his family were going to cl05e the business. I asked how much he wanted to sell, and he answered they hadn't thought of selling it; that they didn't want their name used. I told him we would change the name. They could retain their name, Dwight Devine. I would operate under the name, Ulster Knife Company.

Nothing that C.D. ever said or asked could be answered in words of one syllable. Everything had to be thought about and discussed with his family, etc. etc. Dwight Devine & Son was owned by C. D., John Devine his brother, Alice his sister (a medical doctor) and Jennie Young a married sister.

I made an appointment to drive my family to Ellenville, New York, on the 13th of December 1940, and in the words of Betsy and Margie, the factory "Looked like a cellar." As we left, having been entertained by Mrs. Devine (her mother was the first white child born in the State of New York), I knew without a doubt that this was what I wanted to do. But there was one question –where was I to get the money?

Before New Year's I had an agreement with the Devine’s to buy the business. By the 16th of the month, I had Walter Scott in my office to tell him that I had not signed the final papers, but that I wanted “Hibbard's” business (he was the buyer). On the 17th of January, I signed with the Devine’s. They turned over the management of the business, gave me an option to buy them out over a period of years, at a substantial increase in the price they ever had expected to get for the business.

The Devine family took this matter seriously and were kind enough to stay on the Board, consisting of C.D. Devine, Chairman, me as President and Treasurer, Harry Aaron as Vice President, and Henry Baer as Secretary. The complete Board added John Devine, Helene Baer, and with 39 typewritten pages of legal gobbledegook, we started in business. It wasn't long before Frank Kethcart was up at the factory and was one of our first customers in addition to Hibbard, Spencer Bartlett, Sears Roebuck and C. M. McClung. Dwight Devine was an old skinflint from way back, but absolutely honest. However, his pound of flesh was not easy to come by.

Codger

 

[Conchovtx]

I don't see where the version you posted and mine conflict.
Codger

Whatever, the original Ulster Knife Works was 5 years old when Dwight Devine
became involved. The original concept was a cooperative of workers. That is
the point I made, one of which may have been my kin. The factory burned down
sometime in the early years and I suppose early records went with it and I'll
never know.

 

[Codger_64]

Census and local tax records may help you find at least a part of the story you are looking for. Yes, the company began as a co-operative which soon failed, too many chiefs, I think. But the chiefs are enumerated somewhere. We even have some early photos archived if you would like to see them. Dwight was one of the original founders of the co-operative from what I have read, but other sources might state differenly. He became sole owner in 1876 after the company failed again at reorganization in 1875. SOmewhere we have a list of the original owners.

Found it:
Officers were:
William H. Otis, Pres.
Jacob Hermance, VP
John McElhone, Treas.
Simon K. Wood, Sec.

Other directors were:
Jonas Crisman
Alfred Neafie
Dwight Divine
John Lyon
James B. Childs

 

[Conchovtx]

Census and local tax records may help you find at least a part of the story you are looking for. Yes, the company began as a co-operative which soon failed, too many chiefs, I think. But the chiefs are enumerated somewhere. We even have some early photos archived if you would like to see them. Dwight was one of the original founders of the co-operative from what I have read, but other sources might state differenly. He became sole owner in 1876 after the company failed again at reorganization in 1875. SOmewhere we have a list of the original owners.

Found it:
Officers were:
William H. Otis, Pres.
Jacob Hermance, VP
John McElhone, Treas.
Simon K. Wood, Sec.

Other directors were:
Jonas Crisman
Alfred Neafie
Dwight Divine
John Lyon
James B. Childs

My family name is Wood, however my Grandfather passed away in 1904 when
my father was only 2 years old and never knew his father. I don't even know
my grandfather's first name but it could be Simon. Thanks for digging that up.

 

[Codger_64]

Look up his birth certificate through yours and your father's. Then check with the tax and census records. You might just be amazed at what you will find, including the date he came to America.

 

[Conchovtx]

Look up his birth certificate through yours and your father's. Then check with the tax and census records. You might just be amazed at what you will find, including the date he came to America.

I wouldn't know where to start. I was born in Ellenville in 1936 and have my
birth certificate, however I'm 2,900 miles from there and none of my relatives
in the area have survived me. I'm sure my father was born there but my older
brother inherited all his paperwork and he's long gone as well. I'd like to get
into the Ellenville library for a week or so and see what I can find but that's
wishful thinking.

 

[Codger_64]

You might be surprised what you can do with a bit of help. We do have members in that area, and a few who are members of geneology sites. COntact the state of NY for your birth certificate, your father is listed. Get his birth certificate. His father is listed. Look yourself up in the census records, your father is listed along with, usually, occupation and sometimes address. Go back until you find his father listed with occupation. It isn't that hard when you get help, and a good place to start is the Ellenville Wawarsing library. The internet can be your friend. You learn this when you are deafened like me!

 

[Conchovtx]

The internet can be your friend. You learn this when you are deafened like me!

I am profoundly deaf myself, to the extent I can't use a telephone....

Ellenville is a dying dinasour and so, are it's facilities. Any searches today require
membership and frankly, I don't have the patience. I've been on the net for years
and get around quite well, however now everything is for sale and it isn't worth it
for me to know now.

 

[Rusty1]

In 1871 they heard that Ellenville, Ulster County, New York, was interested in having such a business located there. A local committee headed by Eli D. Terwilliger and William H. Otis had already operated in an effort to secure such an industry for Ellenville. Arrangements were made with the Naugatuck group to come to Ellenville for a conference. Negotiations finally led to the formation of the Ellenville Knife Building Company, which purchased the foundry property of John L. Bloomer & Sons on the Beer Kill in August, 1871.

The name Terwilliger cannot be that common, I was up visiting Eric (ea42) we took a drive to a flea market nearby Ellenville, the owner of one of the stalls was Alice Terwilliger who worked at Schrade for many years.

Russell

 

[lrv]

County. N.Y., THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1941.

Divine & Sons Sell Knife Works;
Corporation To Extend Business
WORKS BAD BEEN IN DIVINE FAMILY ABOUT 65 YEARS

Ulster Knife Co., Inc., Plans
Enlargement Of Plant,
City Show Room

Coincident with the announce-ment yesterday morning that the Ulster Knife Company. Inc.. is making extensive plans for expansions. it was; revealed that the firm of Dwight Divine & Sons. Inc --owners of the pant since is -have discontinued all connections with the cutlery business.
However, C. Dwight Divine. and John H. Divine. president and treasurer of Dwight Divine & Sons., will continue as individuals to be interested in the Ulster Knife Company. C. D. Devine will serve as chairman of the board of directors of the new setup while his brother will serve on the beard of directors. Both sons of Dwight Devine they stated that the corporation organized by their father will continue intact in its other businesses.
President of the knife worker under the reorganized system will be Albert M. Baer, who in 18 years of affiliation with the cutlery business rose to become active head of the Camillus Cutlery Company, one of the largest producers of quality pocket cutlery in business today.
A. Harry Aaron, a former vice president of the Dictograph Products Company, will serve as vice president to Mr. Baer.
Amplifying the statement that the knife works is undertaking an expansion program. Mr. Baer stated that the firm is planning to open a show room in New York City in the immediate future and will purchase new equipment and machines to retool the plant here. He added that the same high quality of products that have been manufactured in the past will continue to be turned out is the future.
He stated that an additional number of employes have already been hired but added that be could not say how many more workers he planned to engage in future, explaining that the plant will increase its facilities as business warrants. He said that all indications point to the Knife works once again becoming a thriving industry in the life of community.
Herbert Hess, who will make his home here, as will Mr. Aaron, will become superintendent of the plant.
The plant, the oldest pocket cutlery factory in operation today, was started here in 1871 by a group of knife workers that originally came from Sheffield, England then the center of cutlery manufactures. It was started on the. site of an old foundry on a cooperative basis with the late William Booth, one of the leaders. The venture under the cooperative setup was short lived however, lasting little over a year
When the works failed it was taken over by Dwight Divine. Alfred Nestle and R.H. Brodhead in cooperative form and in 1876 Mr. Divine became sole owner, later taking his sons into the firm of Dwight Divine & Sons, Inc., Mr Booth was retained as superintendent through both changes and his ability as a knife worker aided in building the reputation of the firm.
As the Ulster Knife Woks grew, so did similar plants in the immediate vicinity until this area came to be regarded as the heart of the domestic cutlery business. Of the other concerns that flourished at the same time - they included the Schrade, New York and Walden cutlery business at Walden. The Warwick Knife Company at Warwick, and the Napanoch Knife Shop, at Napanoch. — Only the Schrade works is a contemporary of the local plant today.

 

[Conchovtx]

In 1871 they heard that Ellenville, Ulster County, New York, was interested in having such a business located there. A local committee headed by Eli D. Terwilliger and William H. Otis had already operated in an effort to secure such an industry for Ellenville. Arrangements were made with the Naugatuck group to come to Ellenville for a conference. Negotiations finally led to the formation of the Ellenville Knife Building Company, which purchased the foundry property of John L. Bloomer & Sons on the Beer Kill in August, 1871.

The name Terwilliger cannot be that common, I was up visiting Eric (ea42) we took a drive to a flea market nearby Ellenville, the owner of one of the stalls was Alice Terwilliger who worked at Schrade for many years.

Russell

Take my word for it, Terwilliger is a common name in the area. A "Google"
search on the name Terwilliger returns: Results 1 - 10 of about 786,000 for terwilliger.

See: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/TERWILLIGER/1999-07/0933180787 or http://tinyurl.com/5efuqc
for Terwilligers in Ulster County, NY.

Schrade was a primary employer for the area for ever. There was the
Ellenville Glass Works at one time and the Wood Novelty Factory too.
In the 50's, Channel Master Corp. built an Aluminum Antenna plant there
but that too went belly up. I guess the paper mills in Napanoch are still
running but I don't know for sure. I haven't been there since 1963 when
my father passed away. I'd like to make a trip back there but don't know
if I have the stamina to ride my bike that far.......

 

[Rusty1]

Thanks for that info Conchovtx, although only a small community, I'm sure you would notice many changes.

Russell

 

[lrv]

 

[ea42]

I think I'm gonna have to take a walk on the Beerkill someday. I'll have a look in the Ellenville library when I have some spare time Conchoctx, who knows what might turn up. I'm only twenty minutes away, so it wouldn't be a problem. maybe I'll mosey over to the Town Hall while I'm at it. Ellenville isn't quite the dinosaur you've been led to believe, it's still bustling pretty well, just in a slump while it gets reorganized. The closing of the Schrade plant took quite a toll on the workforce there, but most folks have since found new employment. The biggest problem there, and this has been an ongoing problem for quite a while, is getting rid of the lowlifes and the drugs that do nothing but bleed the city.
Napanoch has a little street fair going every summer called Napanoch Day. Here's one of a couple of display tables we had set up. This particular one has a number of implements from the Napanoch Knife Co's axe "division". They belong to a member of the community who has a collection of Nappy's that I can't begin to describe. His grandfather was actually one of the master cutlers for the company:

[/IMG]

Eric

 

[ea42]

Larry, that is an awesome picture!!

Eric

 

[Conchovtx]

I want to thank you fellows for your contributions. It's a chapter in my life
that hasn't been opened for many years. I would love to spend some time
in that area as there are still some old school chums I would like to see
again.

Thanks again.

Bob Wood
Stanton, CA

 

[John T. Jeffery]

I am posting this in addition to the email I just sent you for the benefit of others on the forum who may be interested in my question.

I recently saw a new 34OT offered on eBay in the clamshell packaging clearly labeled as a “Stockman” (see the picture inserted below my signature block, and in the attached file, from eBay auction #220270027267). This has me a little confused due to the following:

You list the 8OT as a “Senior Stockman” in your article on “Schrade Old Timer Models” on the AAPK web site, and the 58OT as an “Ulster Old Timer Stockman”. The title “Stockman” does not occur elsewhere in your Old Timer Model listing. You list the 34OT as the “Middleman”.

In your posts here (12-21-2005, and 01-23-2006) you list the 34OT as the “Middleman”. The only references to the label “Stockman” I could find in your listings on this forum are as follows:

Schrade 58OT Whittler / Stockman
Schrade CSW982 Stockman [SCHRADE WALDEN, CIGAR BOX CLASSICS]
Schrade OTC80 Stockman [OLD TIMER CLASSICS]

Labeling the 34OT as the “Middleman” is consistent with the listing in Schrade’s last Retail Price List (2004) which I have an original copy of (pg. 1). Also, in this list the 100th Anniversary Collectible Special Edition A34OT is labeled as the “Middleman” (pg. 4), and the Clampack 34OTCP as the “Middleman”. This appears to be consistent with other price lists on Larry Vickery’s web page, http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/, since they began putting model names on the lists circa 1978.

Can you clear this up? Did Schrade make an error on this packaging, or did they go back and forth on the name for this model?

I was able to pick up several of the clamshell 34OTs at military PX’s while deploying to Iraq in 2005 for $7.00 each and sent them home to family members to put away. I carried one from that time on a daily basis. In addition, I have begun a small collection of other Schrade knives (USA only) that now numbers 21.

 

[thawk]

Middleman is a marketing term. The 34OT is a stockman pattern. Schrade came up with these terms in the 70's and 80's. The 98OT was The Ramrod. The 858OT was The Lumberjack. They are all stockman patterns, based on the handle shape and blade configuration.