Which sword for the untrained?

MVF

MVF

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I know this sounds like a mall ninja question, but I have been trying to reason this out and just don't know enough, and sure haven't handled enough swords to go by feel. It would seem to me that without training a sword could easily be passed by an attacker, so I think Gladius, but then didn't Rapiers prove themselves "king of the hill" back when swords were actually in use?

So, if you were going to recommend a sword for a completely untrained person to use to defend themselves, what would it be and why?

Please note: I already have more effective weapons that I know how to use, so I will not be expecting to grab a sword when I hear a bump in the night, but if I wanted to get a sword to play with ...
 
IMO it is best to get the training rather than looking for something to use that requires no training.

No sword is really better than others, they were all designed for the culture and time they were used, taking technology, armor, fighting styles, enemies, and warfare into account. You probably won't be in armor nor fighting guys in armor, and you probably also won't be fighting in a large group of people packed side by side forming a wall of shields and spears, and probably won't even be fighting against another person using a sword.

You'd probably want something short that can be used in close quarters like a gladius, barong, or wakizashi.

You could also get a larger knife like smatchet or bowie. There will be more options in bowie choices than with the smatchet.

That said, my answer would be a machete. It will be much cheaper (10-20 machetes for the price of one sword) and more forgiving of your mistakes that a sword when doing cutting practice.

If you just want a sword and are looking for a reason to buy one, then just wanting one is enough.
 
A couple of points...

1) For the "untrained" no sword is going to be inherently better then another. The geography where the sword will be used is far more important. For example trying to swing a bidenhander in your house is probably a bad idea.

2) For self defense purposes get a gun not a sword. Knives to gunfights and all that. There's also the issue of public perception. Just how is going to look to that judge when you hacked off an intruder's body parts, and can you imagine the media circus?

3) Pet peeve: Rapiers were not "King of the Hill" any more then a fencing foil is the ultimate sword. A rapier is good for what it was designed to do, namely dueling or street combat against an unarmored foe. As was previously noted different swords were designed with different jobs in mind and they are typically pretty good for what they were designed to do. There is no ultimate sword, not even the katana! :D
 
MVF said:
I know this sounds like a mall ninja question, but I have been trying to reason this out and just don't know enough, and sure haven't handled enough swords to go by feel. It would seem to me that without training a sword could easily be passed by an attacker, so I think Gladius, but then didn't Rapiers prove themselves "king of the hill" back when swords were actually in use?

So, if you were going to recommend a sword for a completely untrained person to use to defend themselves, what would it be and why?

Please note: I already have more effective weapons that I know how to use, so I will not be expecting to grab a sword when I hear a bump in the night, but if I wanted to get a sword to play with ...
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You Really can't recommend a sword for some one untrained. The reason is the differences between them and how they are used and feel can sometimes be vast. Selecting a sword has a lot to do with you. Some like lots of blade presences and some prefer a very light and nimble blade while others prefer a more neutral blade. Some like to cut and bash while others like to poke and some like to do both.

You mentioned a Gladius and I think your on the right path. I would suggest a good large bowie. Very fast, cut's like a sword, easy to carry and can be used for other chores whereas swords really have only two uses display or killing. Learning to use one may or may not be easy that depends on you but overall the basics are easy to pick up and will translate to sword use later if you decide to pick up a sword.

For the last bit of advise holding the knife/sword is only part of equation the other part is using it. A knife is a very gruesome and messy thing to use if your not prepared mentally for the whats to follow then best not pick it up.
 
Benjamin Liu said:
You'd probably want something short that can be used in close quarters like a gladius, barong, or wakizashi.
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I'd second the barong, at least on a theoretical level. Any short, single-edged specimen would probably be best for a sword newbie in close quarters... the single edge also reducing the careless wielder's risk of cutting themselves. :eek:

Whatever the choice, here's hoping it never gets used that way. :thumbup:
 
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A sword is going to be more effective in short range combat ( less than 15 feet I think) than a knife. Most self defense experts agree on this point. However if you walk down the street with a sword you are going to get hassled a lot. I would go for some training with a staff you could take one just about anywhere with out hassle. Or you could carry a cane it may look strange but it could really do some damage in combat.
That said I love swords and sword fighting and I would get a Japanese style sword because I like them.
 
Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. I was hoping for this to be more of a fun intellectual excercise, but can see that the question really is too broad.

I already have a katana and a wakizashi (I prefer the wakizashi, feeling totally overwhelmed by the katana) and recently picked up a post-Civil War officer's sword (not a user). It was while playing with this that I thought how easy it would be for someone to get inside on me, which is what started me thinking about this subject.

I have a pretty good variety of knives, large and small, though no large Bowies. I also have a good assortment of firearms, both long and short, and am more practiced with these than I could ever hope to be with a sword starting at my age (54), so the "defensive" aspect of the sword is just because I like the weapons I own to be functional (the officer's sword was purchased as a decoration).

After experiencing the katana, I was hoping to avoid more mistakes. I love the stuff at Albion, but even their gladius is $700! Even so, I may end up selling some stuff for one of their longer blades if only for the experience of it. I also like Angus Trim's gladius or leaf shaped short sword (and his prices seem wonderful for a useful blade).

I think the rapier's superiority may have been a figment of my own imagination- when I was young I used to do term papers for school on arms and armor and I think I decided (in my infinite wisdumb) that the shorter rapiers were the perfect sword- cut or stab, not too flimsy, but not too heavy...

And yes, it's just to have and maybe get some excercise with!
 
MVF said:
Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. I was hoping for this to be more of a fun intellectual excercise, but can see that the question really is too broad.

I already have a katana and a wakizashi (I prefer the wakizashi, feeling totally overwhelmed by the katana) and recently picked up a post-Civil War officer's sword (not a user). It was while playing with this that I thought how easy it would be for someone to get inside on me, which is what started me thinking about this subject.

I have a pretty good variety of knives, large and small, though no large Bowies. I also have a good assortment of firearms, both long and short, and am more practiced with these than I could ever hope to be with a sword starting at my age (54), so the "defensive" aspect of the sword is just because I like the weapons I own to be functional (the officer's sword was purchased as a decoration).

After experiencing the katana, I was hoping to avoid more mistakes. I love the stuff at Albion, but even their gladius is $700! Even so, I may end up selling some stuff for one of their longer blades if only for the experience of it. I also like Angus Trim's gladius or leaf shaped short sword (and his prices seem wonderful for a useful blade).

I think the rapier's superiority may have been a figment of my own imagination- when I was young I used to do term papers for school on arms and armor and I think I decided (in my infinite wisdumb) that the shorter rapiers were the perfect sword- cut or stab, not too flimsy, but not too heavy...

And yes, it's just to have and maybe get some excercise with!
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Cool, I hope I didn't sound too harsh, the original post just managed to almost push several buttons at once... :)
 
MVF said:
I think the rapier's superiority may have been a figment of my own imagination- when I was young I used to do term papers for school on arms and armor and I think I decided (in my infinite wisdumb) that the shorter rapiers were the perfect sword- cut or stab, not too flimsy, but not too heavy...
Click to expand...

Superior for a very specific scenario... unarmoured opponents where speed is of the essence. Throw in any kind of substantial armour on the other guy, and you may end up wanting something with more heft. Sure, it sacrifices the speed factor, but armour is liable to slow the opponent down too...

It's interesting though how certain styles have a "cult of superiority" about them... perhaps the katana most notoriously. I mean, a million D & D players can't be wrong, right? :D
 
The basic mechanics of wielding a sword for self-defense really aren't that complicated. I've written an entire book on the subject (though "entire" is misleading -- it's not really very long, even). You really shouldn't just pick up a sword, cold, and start mucking about, though; at the very least you should try to learn those basic mechanics through the variety of sources available out there.
 
Sharp Phil said:
The basic mechanics of wielding a sword for self-defense really aren't that complicated. I've written an entire book on the subject (though "entire" is misleading -- it's not really very long, even). You really shouldn't just pick up a sword, cold, and start mucking about, though; at the very least you should try to learn those basic mechanics through the variety of sources available out there.
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I would think you would agree however that there is a significant difference between "weilding a sword for self defense" (i.e. cutting someone) and actual swordsmanship, i.e. the art of defeating a determined opponent similarly armed and also trained in swordsmanship.
 
MVF said:
Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. I was hoping for this to be more of a fun intellectual excercise, but can see that the question really is too broad.

I already have a katana and a wakizashi (I prefer the wakizashi, feeling totally overwhelmed by the katana) and recently picked up a post-Civil War officer's sword (not a user). It was while playing with this that I thought how easy it would be for someone to get inside on me, which is what started me thinking about this subject.

I have a pretty good variety of knives, large and small, though no large Bowies. I also have a good assortment of firearms, both long and short, and am more practiced with these than I could ever hope to be with a sword starting at my age (54), so the "defensive" aspect of the sword is just because I like the weapons I own to be functional (the officer's sword was purchased as a decoration).

After experiencing the katana, I was hoping to avoid more mistakes. I love the stuff at Albion, but even their gladius is $700! Even so, I may end up selling some stuff for one of their longer blades if only for the experience of it. I also like Angus Trim's gladius or leaf shaped short sword (and his prices seem wonderful for a useful blade).

I think the rapier's superiority may have been a figment of my own imagination- when I was young I used to do term papers for school on arms and armor and I think I decided (in my infinite wisdumb) that the shorter rapiers were the perfect sword- cut or stab, not too flimsy, but not too heavy...

And yes, it's just to have and maybe get some excercise with!
Click to expand...


Albion swords are top shelf and well worth the investment. I like there viking swords but that's a personal preference. The Gladius is a very effective cut and thrust sword and of course great for close quarters even with out the scutum.

Angus Trime swords are good although not on the same level as Albion. You will find they are light nimble but cut well and are very forgiving.

A Wakizashi is a good choice for close work not to light but heavy enough for serious cuts. I would still check out Bowie though. Keep the blade length around 10-12" . Weight can have a wide range and I prefer them a little heavy but anything in the range of 17-36oz will work well. Gun and knife shows are good for handling and inspecting what ever your looking for.

If your buying this for around the house then it really doesn't matter what you get however something worth considering is that swords depending on where you live can be very hard/illegal to take with you say on a trip and can draw a lot of attention. Like I mentioned earlier swords are really only good for two things. On the other hand a good big knife can be used for general work around the yard and the camp site without drawing to much attention. The other added benefit of the large/bowie knife is that the more you use it the more natural it will feel in your hand.
 
Triton said:
I would think you would agree however that there is a significant difference between "weilding a sword for self defense" (i.e. cutting someone) and actual swordsmanship, i.e. the art of defeating a determined opponent similarly armed and also trained in swordsmanship.
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I do indeed agree.
 
markksr said:
smatchet?
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Here we go again! :eek:



Steps for n00b to become leet sword ninja master:

1. play lots o Soul Caiber games

2. get some twine

3. get about 10 5-packs of double edged razor blades

4. tie razors to thread

5. tie one end of thread to pepper-mill for handle

6. mimic Ivy's fighting style from game

7. call ambulance
 
MVF said:
so the "defensive" aspect of the sword is just because I like the weapons I own to be functional (the officer's sword was purchased as a decoration).

After experiencing the katana, I was hoping to avoid more mistakes. I love the stuff at Albion, but even their gladius is $700!
Click to expand...


I don't own one, but from reading various forums it seems that Albion is the top of the line for European swords. You might want to save up and eventually buy one, but also get an inexpensive and functional sword to practice with, in the case of the gladius maybe one from Kris Cutlery or Windlass.

I read an article a few years ago by a Japanese stylist, and he said that everyone wants an expensive antique or custom katana, but then after they get it they end up spending more time taking care of it than training with it, and mostly use a bokken, iaito (blunt metal sword) or an inexpensive katana like one from Hanwei for actual training.
 
Triton said:
I would think you would agree however that there is a significant difference between "weilding a sword for self defense" (i.e. cutting someone) and actual swordsmanship, i.e. the art of defeating a determined opponent similarly armed and also trained in swordsmanship.
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I disagree, for both require skill, resolve and strategy in order to be successful.

Whether you face a sword, baseball bat, tire iron or piece of rebar the situation is approached the same their is no difference.
 
Bors said:
I disagree, for both require skill, resolve and strategy in order to be successful.

Whether you face a sword, baseball bat, tire iron or piece of rebar the situation is approached the same their is no difference.
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I think I now have the question I should have asked-

What sword would you choose (and why) to face an unknown opponent in an undefined environment? Said opponent may be armed with anything below the level of firearms.

This is meant to be fun for those participating and informative to those like me trying to learn.

Thanks again to those "engaging" in this discussion :D
 
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