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BAD- Received Rocks vice Rockstead

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If the buyer thinks a crime was committed (and mail fraud is definitely a crime), he can find these guys on base. They'll probably even help with getting U.S. Postal Inspection Service involved.

Naval Criminal Investigative Service
Marine Corps West Field Office
120101 De Luz Road
Box 555238
Camp Pendleton, CA 92055

Phone: 760-725-5158


Of course, the seller can contact those same agencies.
 
HappyDaddy said:
Spidey-sense tells me that the unboxing was BS. Without knowing how the item was packed (newspaper, brown paper, peanuts, or ten other possibilities, etc., etc.), there's no way to know what sound would seem "wrong" when shaking the package. It certainly wouldn't sound so obviously off as to raise suspicion. Also, that box had clearly been opened before (whether by OP, USPS, or Seller...?). Not making an accusation, just saying...
Click to expand...


This is just an observation and not an opinion on the situation at hand.

I'm kind of surprised that sound and shaking part is getting so many objections of plausibility.

Whenever I ship a knife out I'll give it a shake to make sure it's packed well enough so there's little to no movement. When I receive a knife, I'll give it a shake too for the same reason. Most boxes I receive have little movement and occasionally someone will use less packing than I prefer and the knife/box inside will rattle a bit. Not only is the sound a little different depending on how its packed, but the feel is different too. I feel like I've done this enough that a bag of rocks would likely feel and sound differently enough to notice something may be off prior to opening.
I liken it to shaking your Christmas presents before opening. That GI Joe action figure will not feel or sound the same as a box of Legos.
 
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My hands were steady
My camera clear and bright
My video had purpose
My opening quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Bag of rocks

Bag of rocks, I was mad as I could be
Bag of rocks, this is not a Rocksteady
Bag of rocks, it was something to see
Bag of rocks
 
Okay, everybody study this thread, from beginning 'til the end - we're having a test tonight, on the facts! :D:p

When I, like a dummy, decided to jump into this mess, this is how I understood things:

Buyer disputed the transaction, with PayPal, and PayPal sided with the seller.
Seller made a claim, with USPS, and seller was granted the claim. *I think I got this one wrong.*
Seller has money from buyer, and USPS, and maybe the knife, too. *Again, looks like I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.*
 
Peter Hartwig said:
He(luh) is very likely going to get nothing and be out a knife. Outside chance PP will cover him, under seller protection. Even more remote that USPS pays on the insurance, since it is delivered and signed for.
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This. I honestly do not expect USPS to honor their insurance, because they never do. Just to clarify for folks who may not understand: you can't just rock up to the PO counter and be like "Hey man, my package got stolen, and here's the receipt where I purchased $800 insurance" and they cut you an $800 check on the spot. Not even close.

First of all, the package was delivered and signed for. That puts the proof on the seller, but if he has his receipt that shows the correct weight, then that means the knife was stolen while in transit. At that point, USPS will demand documentation that proves that that knife was actually worth $800. They're going to want to see a receipt, and not a Paypal sale page printout, but some actual proof from a company that the knife is worth that. Now, if the knife was worth more, some USPS inspector may decide to give the seller the $800 at which point, he can send that $800 to the buyer. If Paypal has made him "whole", in that he got to keep the money the buyer paid, then that would be the right thing to do.

I have to say that I do NOT agree that the seller, IF HE WAS ENTIRELY ABOVE BOARD AND DID NOTHING WRONG, should be out $800 and the knife. This is a sticky situation if indeed the knife was taken while in transit, because I personally think it's going to be very difficult to get USPS to cut the seller a check.
 
fonedork said:
My hands were steady
My camera clear and bright
My video had purpose
My opening quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Bag of rocks

Bag of rocks, I was mad as I could be
Bag of rocks, this is not a Rocksteady
Bag of rocks, it was something to see
Bag of rocks
Click to expand...

Bob Seger would be proud..........
 
If PayPal did indeed rule in favor of the seller (sender), this surprises me although it does not shock me! By and large, PP tends to indemnify the buyer but obviously there are exceptions. However since double jeopardy does really exist with PP, if the buyer had paid by using a credit card, he can always dispute the transaction with his CC company.

I am really curious about Mr. Quiet's lack of confidence in the insurance process and the notion of insuring one's packages. Don't get me wrong as I am not naive and I do understand that the insurance Co's first course of action is to be adamant about an immediate payment based on hearsay followed by rigorous questioning, "investigation" ala laying out as many obstacles to obfuscate as much as possible; but still there are laws and regulations governing insurance. I am particularly interested in some examples of what claims were declined in Quite's case vis a vis the USPS. As far as receipts are concerned, this is the reason that when it comes to my own sales, I insist on sending an "invoice" to the buyer as opposed to just giving the buyer my PP email address to send me G&S fund$ but then again I run an online business unrelated to celery and I consider myself more savvy in this regard as opposed to the average person conducting infrequent online sales / purchases. Also once you have a receipt to show as to what value was received, the Ins Co ought not have too much argument against a legitimate receipt. Of course they are still entitled to independently verify the legitimacy/ accuracy of the value by researching the valuation or appraisal based on MSRP, etc. I do not think that the insurances underwritten whether by DHL / FedEX or UPS would be much different.

If I could fault the seller based on my reading through the thread and filtering out the noise, it would be lack of proper packaging! I simply find using one flimsy small flat rate USPS box inadequate, on top of having reused one! :rolleyes: Brother, you are shipping out an $850 knife which comes in a nice wooden presentation box and I don't care if you've lost or gain on it, pay up $10 more and use a more sturdy / bigger box to just sleep a bit easier at night. Always use double layered boxing to exactly deter against such malfeasances. This is not just a criticism against you the seller, but also what I have personally experiences having bought many Shirogorov Knives in the $700-$1000 range which were shipped out to me with the exact "inadequacies".

As far as the buyer goes, if the package was indeed delivered to him in Camp Pendelton (I was not initially aware of this) there could be more steps along the way in here regarding fraud, malfeasance and theft; specially if the buyer (addressee) was known for having a side business relating to craftsmanship and valuable cutlery. This one I will just leave at this but I still find Rocksinstead of a Rockstead too much of a coincidences just to dismiss as a fluke as only highland cutlery folks find the irony in this. Someone had already mentioned maybe a prank gone terribly wrong!
 
Weighing in on this may be a bad idea, but...:
  • I've dealt with the seller before, and had absolutely no issues. Moreover, his behavior in this case doesn't at all seem like he was setting up a scam
  • I don't know the buyer, but he's been vouched for long-time members
  • Both buyer and seller have been here for years. An $850 knife isn't that high-end, compared to other stuff they regularly buy and sell. As in, setting up a multi-year account, with a solid transaction history, to eventually pull of a single $850 heist just doesn't seem worth it. If the Rockstead was significantly more expensive than what either of them dealt with historically, I'd be more suspicious
  • There is absolutely no chance USPS will pay any insurance claims, for the reasons already stated in the thread. If the seller DOES see any money from USPS, of course he should send it to the buyer, but there won't be any
Dunno - this is a tough one. If the seller was a knife retailer, I'd expect them to reimburse the customer, but of course they price in loss as part of the cost of doing business.

Lesson learned: don't reuse packaging. It's free from the post office, and you have them mail both flat rate boxes and flat rate padded envelopes for free, to your house. That one little box isn't going to affect the environment - just recycle it
 
Casinostocks said:
I am really curious about Mr. Quiet's lack of confidence in the insurance process and the notion of insuring one's packages. Don't get me wrong as I am not naive and I do understand that the insurance Co's first course of action is to be adamant about an immediate payment based on hearsay followed by rigorous questioning, "investigation" ala laying out as many obstacles to obfuscate as much as possible; but still there are laws and regulations governing insurance
Click to expand...

USPS' data shows the package was delivered and signed for. They have a recipient's signature, and a log entry showing the date/time and GPS coordinates where the delivery took place.

Unless the package was opened up immediately, right in front of the mailman, how would you ever prove that the theft occurred while the package was in USPS possession, and not afterwards? Sworn affidavit saying "I didn't do it - wasn't me!" doesn't count. This isn't even a question of whether USPS in particular is stingy with insurance - I don't think any insurance company would pay under those circumstances.
 
Casinostocks said:
If PayPal did indeed rule in favor of the seller (sender), this surprises me although it does not shock me! By and large, PP tends to indemnify the buyer but obviously there are exceptions. However since double jeopardy does really exist with PP, if the buyer had paid by using a credit card, he can always dispute the transaction with his CC company.

I am really curious about Mr. Quiet's lack of confidence in the insurance process and the notion of insuring one's packages. Don't get me wrong as I am not naive and I do understand that the insurance Co's first course of action is to be adamant about an immediate payment based on hearsay followed by rigorous questioning, "investigation" ala laying out as many obstacles to obfuscate as much as possible; but still there are laws and regulations governing insurance. I am particularly interested in some examples of what claims were declined in Quite's case vis a vis the USPS. As far as receipts are concerned, this is the reason that when it comes to my own sales, I insist on sending an "invoice" to the buyer as opposed to just giving the buyer my PP email address to send me G&S fund$ but then again I run an online business unrelated to celery and I consider myself more savvy in this regard as opposed to the average person conducting infrequent online sales / purchases. Also once you have a receipt to show as to what value was received, the Ins Co ought not have too much argument against a legitimate receipt. Of course they are still entitled to independently verify the legitimacy/ accuracy of the value by researching the valuation or appraisal based on MSRP, etc. I do not think that the insurances underwritten whether by DHL / FedEX or UPS would be much different.

If I could fault the seller based on my reading through the thread and filtering out the noise, it would be lack of proper packaging! I simply find using one flimsy small flat rate USPS box inadequate, on top of having reused one! :rolleyes: Brother, you are shipping out an $850 knife which comes in a nice wooden presentation box and I don't care if you've lost or gain on it, pay up $10 more and use a more sturdy / bigger box to just sleep a bit easier at night. Always use double layered boxing to exactly deter against such malfeasances. This is not just a criticism against you the seller, but also what I have personally experiences having bought many Shirogorov Knives in the $700-$1000 range which were shipped out to me with the exact "inadequacies".

As far as the buyer goes, if the package was indeed delivered to him in Camp Pendelton (I was not initially aware of this) there could be more steps along the way in here regarding fraud, malfeasance and theft; specially if the buyer (addressee) was known for having a side business relating to craftsmanship and valuable cutlery. This one I will just leave at this but I still find Rocksinstead of a Rockstead too much of a coincidences just to dismiss as a fluke as only highland cutlery folks find the irony in this. Someone had already mentioned maybe a prank gone terribly wrong!
Click to expand...
I agree that the packaging was inadequate. An $800 knife should be be double boxed, isolated in the center, and packed to abate any movement. Then every outside seam should be sealed with heavy duty tape.
 
tyyreaun said:
USPS' data shows the package was delivered and signed for. They have a recipient's signature, and a log entry showing the date/time and GPS coordinates where the delivery took place.

Unless the package was opened up immediately, right in front of the mailman, how would you ever prove that the theft occurred while the package was in USPS possession, and not afterwards? Sworn affidavit saying "I didn't do it - wasn't me!" doesn't count. This isn't even a question of whether USPS in particular is stingy with insurance - I don't think any insurance company would pay under those circumstances.
Click to expand...

I agree in the essence of your opinion but my question was addressed to Quite's assertions that purchasing insurance is a total waste money and a waste of one's time if having to act on to.

I will tell you this though, since the addressee seems to live on base, this will attract and merit investigations if escalated to that stage. JMO!

91bravo said:
You can feed gremlins, just not after midnight!
Click to expand...

Hence the insertion of the word "when" ;)
 
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Casinostocks said:
I agree in the essence of your opinion but my question was addressed to Quite's assassin that purchasing insurance is a total waste money and a waste of one's time if having to act on to.

I will tell you this though, since the addressee seems to live on base, this will attract and merit investigations if escalated to that stage. JMO!



Hence the insertion of the word "when" ;)
Click to expand...

Just throw him in the pool first, and THEN feed em!
 
I think OP should remove the video or at least edit out the addresses, it's not really cool to dox the parties to the transaction...even though I totally ran with the info in trying to solve this one
 
fonedork said:
I think OP should remove the video or at least edit out the addresses, it's not really cool to dox the parties to the transaction...even though I totally ran with the info in trying to solve this one
Click to expand...

Probably a little too late now, since a million people have seen it and screen shotted it.
 
fonedork said:
And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their crocks
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my rocks
Click to expand...

Funny but not funny- Take it to Whine and Cheese

I don't often do this commenting in these types of threads and haven't been online here for some time. Personal/family issues- Just about done there.
I have done deals with the buyer and multiple occasions elsewhere. Have never had an issue- That is where my "Tanked" Sebenza came from that is pictured in the CRK sub. Not unusual for a collector to find other avenues to fill what they are after. In this case, facebook sales groups. He is in alot of them and has done many deals from what I have seen. Those same groups are also quick to call out people that scam or steal. Not sure I have seen him in any of those but then again, I have been out of many things for the last several months.
Also, filming openings isn't all that unusual anymore..there is a really big market out there other than the BF exchange- BF is still the best in my opinion, we look after each other..but people do adopt different strategies for protecting themselves. Choose to believe it or not.. Not personally my issue. I film outgoing packages of high value and if I don't know the seller but filming openings isn't out of the question either. IF everything went OK the quick video can be deleted- Why would you keep all of those? Pretty sure I read a few asking for proof of that..to prove that you got what you paid for at some undetermined time? That would be weird.

Some things I can say about the buyer- That photo he uses as a profile pic? Pretty sure that is what he pilots in the Marine Corps.
I don't know- The vid does seem a bit odd, but perhaps not too odd given that he is a pilot and used to being under alot more stress than a box of rocks and 800.00
This brings up another point- Being an officer in the military, I would imagine that the number of people willing to flush all that away for 800 is immeasurable as far as common sense goes. Ruining your name that is also well known for a part-time biz on sharpening and possibly a black mark in the future as a pilot? Seems pretty unreasonable.

These are my ramblings while I had a few minutes- I say nothing of the seller because I don't know them at all and I am definitely not posting this to say he send a box of rocks either..I do humbly admit that I got a chuckle out of Rockinstead- needed the laugh- they have been few and far between.
Anyway, there is alot of hands the packages go through between buyer and seller. Always plausible that neither had a hand in this.
 
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