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Knifemakers PLEASE beware!

Discussion in 'Hall of Shame' started by eda-koppo, Jun 24, 2004.

  1. BARRY JONES

    BARRY JONES

    834
    Oct 2, 1999
    The FBI knew about my rings and a couple of my other Party Favors long before Bart Bjorkman did. They haven't come to beat my door down and drag me off to jail.
     
  2. MelancholyMutt

    MelancholyMutt Doggy Style

    Apr 13, 2002
    I've met the Jones brothers a few times at Virginia shows and I don't think either one of them has a malicious bone in their bodies. They make cool gadgets, not killing machines. Rings like what are being discussed have been made for centuries and their version is pretty innoculous considering other speciments.
     
  3. Stu Gatz

    Stu Gatz

    Apr 20, 2003
    Not even a "promise" to provide some degree of proof in the vague future regarding the allegations made by Bart in his publication? He only drops in late at night (his time in western Canada) to check how things go and then disappears as a "guest" when spotted?

    Some measure of inquiry to colleagues (the very type that Bart wishes to market his publication to) about any knowledge of or any possible interest in the "training" publication in question has resulted in a very large :yawn: :rolleyes: no need for further comment. Bart you truly should have made marketing inquiries before initiating this calamitous venture of yours. Are you in any way related to the goncz clan?

    Bart's continued silence to the legitimate questions posed to him speaks volumes. It will only be fitting to note that he will have copious copies of his publication to burden him with disposal problems. I just hope that the Canadian Haz-Mat fees will not exceed his disposable assets and burden his family into bankruptcy.

    All the very best to those that count,

    Stuart
     
  4. cactus

    cactus

    89
    Jun 3, 2004
    I didn't mean to say they'd be coming after you, Barry, I meant you and other custom makers shouldn't be on a "list" like this with who knows what else, as people can draw the wrong inference to a makers products. :)

    Scott
     
  5. BARRY JONES

    BARRY JONES

    834
    Oct 2, 1999
    cactus,

    :cool: :cool: Thanks.
     
  6. wolfmann601

    wolfmann601 Gone, but not forgotton. RIP Ira.

    Mar 12, 2001
    No they are not "OFTEN" in the hands of bad guys. I am approaching 30 years in LE and the weapons depicted as "covert" are RARELY in the hands of bad guys...................Period
     
  7. Stu Gatz

    Stu Gatz

    Apr 20, 2003
    Has anyone in ANY professional setting or agency seen the aforementioned publication come in as a training device or otherwise? Just curious in that I have yet heard of it mentioned for any academy or other training facility/staff. Was this all just so much fluff? :confused:

    Stuart
     
  8. Benjamin Liu

    Benjamin Liu

    Jan 26, 2000
    I'm pretty sure it is just a book written by an anti-defense leftist hoping to cash in on the fears of terrorism. Unfortunately for him the FBI already made their own poorly-researched and paranoid anti-weapons manual. That one can be found on line and is actually pretty funny, especially the part about someone sneaking a knife disquised as a shotgun shell (which would attract more attention) onboard a plane. I'm sure there would be some PC agency that would waste taxpayer money on such a book but most would probably just look up the FBI's manual for free.
     
  9. recoil

    recoil

    Jul 27, 2000
    Having been employed in law enforcement for the past 22 years, and serving as my agencies training bureau commander since 1988, I feel I am capable of offering a response to the above.
    I have read the book in question and offer my professional opinion, To accomplish this, I cannot let any personal feelings get in the way regarding the authors profit motives, political views, or the manner in which he acquired any of the items pictured.

    My professional opinion is that this publication should be in the library of every law enforcement agency, security agency and police academy. It should be a part of any comprehensive training program on improvised weaponry and looked at by every officer serious about their job and their personal safety.
    This publication is worth the cost for the photos alone and gives an officer an idea of not only what is commercially available but what can be fabricated/concealed in a similar manner. This publication can assist an officer in recognizing a threat that may otherwise go unnoticed - and that can save lives. End of professional opinion.

    It should be noted that I am fully aware that many of the items pictured are high quality tools made of high-tech materials by very talented craftsman. Many of these items are legally owned by law abiding individuals as well as law enforcement officers. I base my opinion on what I feel this book is, one of many resource materials available to law enforcement on weapon recognition and concealment.

    recoil
     
  10. Daniel Koster

    Daniel Koster www.kosterknives.com Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 18, 2001
    recoil - thanks for your note - it is appreciated.

    I think, for the knifemakers involved, the shock value of the book's existence is not the problem - that doesn't make me budge a bit. In fact, I'm curious to see all the great ideas in there. ;)

    The problem is the baiting technique used. Or at least, that's how certain knifemakers have felt. Having your name put in a publication without your approval or even knowledge can be downright slanderous. Why shouldn't the same thing apply to your "work"?

    If this was gathered and written by the FBI....fine. But it's a private author seeking to make a fiscal gain on his work. Standard rules of professional conduct apply.
     
  11. blastjv

    blastjv

    512
    Feb 23, 2003
    His book seems to have received a pretty favorable review in the back of the latest issue of Tactical Knives. :grumpy:

    -John
     
  12. Benjamin Liu

    Benjamin Liu

    Jan 26, 2000
    He probably bought some advertizing. Or maybe Tactical Knives thinks all their readers are "bad guys." :rolleyes: If they'll go that low they should add articles by people like Mabu and Gunkid. At least it would make their magazine more "entertaining." Seriously, would any gun magazine give good reviews to books by Sarah Brady or Ted Kennedy? :barf:
     
  13. blastjv

    blastjv

    512
    Feb 23, 2003
    If they paid enough...


    -John
     
  14. Stu Gatz

    Stu Gatz

    Apr 20, 2003
    Thanks for the opinion Recoil.

    Does your agency actually have a copy of the publication in question and if so did you or your agency pay for it? If not, how did you come by a copy of the book?

    My question is primarily based upon my experience that most departments (et all) usually do not purchase books or manuals that are privately published but will either publish their own "in house" training manuals, copy portions of allied agency manuals such as State agencies or Federal agencies (if their budgets are tight), or just plain use an allied agencies manual such as the FBI which makes virtually all of their training publications available to LEO agencies (most will recall the shared use of the 10mm and .40cal tests as an example).

    In addition, most departments do not pay for the "use" of a private individual’s collection in that they already possess any number of and wide variety of prior "evidence" and confiscated weapons that are used at their respective academies or by the training staff.

    With that said, are you aware of any other departments/agencies that have actually purchased or that are using the publication in question here? I have not and am just curious.

    Thanks and all the very best,

    Stuart
     
  15. recoil

    recoil

    Jul 27, 2000
    Stu,

    You seem to be under the impression that Law Enforcement agencies do not utilize, or are hesitant to use private persons works or for-profit concerns in the area of training. My experience finds this to be the exact opposite.
    Many agencies as well as my own regularly use and pay for materials and instructors from the private sector for officer training as well as Train the Trainer courses. The 3 police academies I have instructed at give up valuable classroom space to these non law enforcement corporations.
    Many companies have training divisions with on staff experts to cater to law enforcement needs. Spyderco, Manodnock, HK, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Def-Tek and Armor holdings just to name a few.
    As for printed materials, I'm sure it would surprise many that manuals from Palidin Press seems to be a very popular resource in many a law enforcement library.
    The Law Enforcement community would be foolish not to take advantage of such valuable information.

    Stu, I gave my professional opinion concerning the concealed weapons manual in the previous posting and I stand by it.

    Police training is a very sensitive area in todays volitile climate. If you want to discuss this issue any further, feel free to email me.

    thanks
    recoil
     
  16. Stu Gatz

    Stu Gatz

    Apr 20, 2003
    Recoil,

    I was not challenging your opinion.

    I agree that many (shall I say already well founded) manufacturers such as those that you have named provide extremely valuable training. However, as is most likely obvious, the training from said manufacturers is usually free, or possibly the cost is built into the bid price of the equipment the manufacturer has sold to the department/agency.

    That said, I also agree that some agencies will occasionally pay for an outside training vendor to provide officers/personnel with specific CQB type demonstrations, etcetera and it pretty much goes without saying that publishers such as Paladin Press have had more LEO type orders than they probably realize. ;) Although I continue to stand with the comment that I have never heard of any agency willing to pay some guy to bring or ship his collection to them. Hell if you are aware of one let me know... :D

    However, my question was more to; if the particular publication in question is actually being purchased by any LEO departments or agencies. I for one have not seen this to be the case. Now, if a publisher wishes to "gift" books to a department/agency I know from experience that it will be WELL received. However, getting an admin to authorize such a purchase would (in my humble experience and yes I have been involved in just a tidbit of training myself ;) ) be something of an accomplishment, especially with the proclivity of cost-free resources. Hell, the more info the better as far as I'm concerned but the simple reality is that departments do not have an endless source of finance to toss at training aids and most department funds are pretty tight.

    Now Recoil, again, I'm not challenging your opinion here. I really don't see how you could have interpreted my question to you that way with the exception of my pretty direct original objection to the publisher's sales pitch. And I continue to stand by that objection to what is obviously over-hype on the part of the publisher. I object to the over-hype not only because of the adverse effect it can have on the manufacturers of legitimate equipment but also because I have seen (as I am sure you have also experienced) rookie or inexperienced officers overreact because of misinformation they have received or because of misperceptions such as certain terminology used by the publisher of the book in question.

    All of that said in an attempt to let it be known again, that I am not challenging your opinion. I simply asked the question if you personally or your agency/department purchased, were given, or merely borrowed the book in question from a library. What was your source for the book? This, and I was curious if you are aware of any other departments/agencies that have actually purchased this publication. As I said, I'm just curious because I am not aware of any department that have ordered it and I have asked around.

    Thanks again in advance Bro. All the best,

    Stuart
     
  17. recoil

    recoil

    Jul 27, 2000
    Stuart,

    no offense taken at all.


    Thanks and take care.

    recoil
     
  18. Benjamin Liu

    Benjamin Liu

    Jan 26, 2000
    I wouldn't be surprised that police departments buy Paladin books such as those by Jerry Van Cook, Mark MacYoung, Gabe Suarez, or anyone else who knows what he are talking about. I would be surprised if they bought books by Ashida Kim, Ha Ha Lung, or Hei Long for anything other than entertainment.

    In high school, since I had a Mini-14 (gasp! A teenager with an eeeeevil assault weapon! :eek: :rolleyes: ) I got Duncan Long's book on the Mini-14. It was not very useful and most of the information in it could be seen by opening up any gun magazine. There have been many books of this sort, whether about various models of knives or martial arts weapons or aftemarket firearms accessories. I call them "catalog books" since all they do is list what you can find in any catalog on the subject. They don't really inform and they are often out of date a few years after publication.

    As for the so-called covert weapons IMO they are interesting to own but not all that useful in terms of covertness. Few would pass through security. For walking down the street a regular knife is more useful than one disguised as something else IMO. I'd recongize any of them as weapons and any cop that spent at least a little time in the self-defense field would too. In the past a covert weapon had more merit since it took a while for enough people to figure them out. Now any new one will be reviewed on all the popular self-defense, martial arts, and knife forums within weeks of being released and everyone in the field would know about it so it would no longer be really covert. A Stinger or Kubotan are useful self-defense tools but not covert IMO.

    The major problem most of us have with this jerk's anti-weapons book is his attitude. He implies that the owners of these weapons are "bad guys" about to victimize you unless you read his book. He assumes that since those weapons exist that those who own them besides himself are evil.

    He is selling through paranoia. I guess the book can be good for some people. Every assault wheelbarrow owner needs a copy.
     
  19. sendec

    sendec Banned by Moderators Banned

    113
    Jul 20, 2004
    I am not certain I understand what the big deal is - the guy uses no more editorial license than a big chunk of the posters here. I am also a little uncomfortable with the idea or implication that he somehow "tricked" people or was duplicitous in how he gathered material. Y'all can sell to whomever you wish, but as a consumer I'm not inclined to feel the need to justify my purchase to the seller. If I walked into a gunshop and was asked what I intended to do with the gun I wanted to purchase I'd spend my money elsewhere.

    If you are going to demand a literal and concrete rendition of everything, well, there is'nt a lot out there that'll reach that benchmark.
     
  20. thombrogan

    thombrogan

    Nov 16, 2002
    The big deal is buying high-end custom tools and weapons and then writing a book that states such tools are currently being used by criminals in the commission of their nefarious activities. Without proof to back up such claims (aside from selling said items to one author), the author is attempting to sully the reputation of some capable knifemakers. Furthermore, the author limits his work to his desires and perceptions of covert criminal tools instead of seeking out which items are used by criminals.

    Please back up that statement with examples. Your definition of editorial license may be wildly different from mine.
     

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